What Is "Random" ?

[happygobrokey]

sometimes its the thrill of getting caught that makes you wanna do it even more. like movie theatre hanky panky and highway hummers.

[KasinoKing]

time keeps on slipping slipping slipping...

Steve Miller Band... can't remember the name of the track though... ?

KK

[maltacruiser]

Hi folks,

Having worked with chartwell, crypto and MG software, I have never experienced a situation whereby the company has tampered with the software to try and 'influence' the RNG. The payout rates are genereally displayed because of contractual reasons with the regulator, however these are generally independantly audited and are just a historical snapshot of what has previously happened in the previous month/months.

I would advise sticking with the above software options as I know they are fair from first hand experience.

Daz

[lojo]

Great subject Simmo!,

Someone else might have proffered this in the second or third pages, I'll read more later.

RNG and Program are not inter-related in a true fair digital game, period. This is the point that seems to be missed in most of the threads I'm reading about 'manipulated' outcomes.

Easy had it down on the seed aspect, new seeds constantly = absolutely unpredictable.

Program = volatility only game to game, or it is not a true fair game.

RNG + fair program = random and fair (within the payout parameters: volitility and payback program)


argggghhh

questions?

[lucky21]

Hello
this is a topic that can realy wind me up, My two bobs worth is that casinos should use hardware based RNG's not software suedo RNG's but as casino's are largely unregulated i think we will see suedo Rngs continue.

something interesting i read in one of the randomness certificates for one gaming provider where the words "randomness tested according to manufactures specifications" hmm cant help but scratch your head.

But the other side is if these casino's can change there RNG's surely a disgruntled employe would have blown the whistle by now

[GrandMaster]

Hello
this is a topic that can realy wind me up, My two bobs worth is that casinos should use hardware based RNG's not software suedo RNG's but as casino's are largely unregulated i think we will see suedo Rngs continue.

Commonly known as pseudo RNGs. The type of RNG is not really an issue, if a casino wants to cheat, the easiest way to do it is when converting the random numbers into cards, slots symbols, etc. Does anyone know whether Las Vegas casinos are required to use real random numbers in their machines?

[EasyRhino]

Nevada gaming control is really strict about that sort of thing.

Actually, I think every state-license casino uses a "real" RNG, in every state. The only thing you may have to look out is I've heard of "video poker" or "video blackjack" machines that don't actually use a real deck of cards, they're basically slots with the odds predetermined (and much lower than a real VP or BJ game), and the cards are just decorative. I think these are no-fly in Nevada, but I saw them mentioned in one state where min slot payout was incredibly low.

[Simmo!]

While I don't wan't to stop this line of debate, I'd like to remind ppl that the original question was not whether casinos cheat on the games, but what constitutues "random".

Another example. Mr. X has 5 envelopes containing £1, £5, £10, £20 and £100. He decides to dish these out to 5 people on the street, however he decides to do it in ascending order of value. Assuming its simply the first 5 people to walk past his house who pay him £10 to pick an envelope, person 1 gets £1 and person 5 gets £100. Would you consider that a random distribution?

Now, Mr Dodgy Casino Manager "fixes" it so that the next 4 spins of Thunderstruck will be zilch, and the 5th is 3 Hammers. Is that random?

[lojo]

While I don't wan't to stop this line of debate, I'd like to remind ppl that the original question was not whether casinos cheat on the games, but what constitutues "random".

Another example. Mr. X has 5 envelopes containing £1, £5, £10, £20 and £100. He decides to dish these out to 5 people on the street, however he decides to do it in ascending order of value. Assuming its simply the first 5 people to walk past his house who pay him £10 to pick an envelope, person 1 gets £1 and person 5 gets £100. Would you consider that a random distribution?

Now, Mr Dodgy Casino Manager "fixes" it so that the next 4 spins of Thunderstruck will be zilch, and the 5th is 3 Hammers. Is that random?

Mr. X? sure why not.
Mr. DCM, nope.

[3Dice]

In the Mr X sample, the people passing by is random, the sequence of the prizes obviously isnt. Now luckily multiplying a random with a non-random gives a random .. so answer . .still random from the people's point of view as long as they are unaware of the rules and cant count the nr of people that went before them (unpredictability).

In the Mr DCM sample, the sequence of the machine would not be random, and if he doesnt know which player is gonna hit it, then it'll still go to a 'random' player. However. Looking at just the machine, its not random, and thus not fair.

Keep in mind that something can be totally random if you miss bits of information, and get to be totally predetermined if you have the information. This is actually the case with a computer based RNG, if you have the algorithm, the seed, the internal state, it's predictable. But since good RNG's use stuff like the nr of interrupts, the number of cache misses, network bytes etc, it gets to be impossible to tell the internal state of the RNG. This is why it is called a pseudo random.

The existance of 'random' in the real physical universe is a big question. (one of the _Big_ ones). There's a general agreement on the fact that most randoms out there are pseudo-randoms (random because of too complex to predict). This actually boils down to a classic sample in filosophy, where in order to 'predict' the next state of everything in the universe, you need a computer that actually stores all the information on all the elementary elements, this computer would be so big however that it requires ALL the elementary elements in the universe to build it. In other words its impossible .. that doesnt mean it is factual random, it may still be that everything happens for a logical cause .. just impossible to predict because of the complexity.

Luckily, for gaming purposes, all you need is unpredictability..