Fortune Lounge problems again

[mikej28]

In early July I was offered 35% plus $25 free at Royal Vegas, 7 Sultans and Vegas Palms. I also took up a 20% Neteller bonus offer. Having fulfilled the wager requirements as I understood them I requested cashins at all three casinos. A couple of days later I got a message from Royal Vegas saying they had removed the Neteller bonus ($20) from my cashin request because I hadn't fulfilled the wager requirements for that portion of the bonus. They added that I needed to wager a further $324 in order to cash in this portion. I also got a message from Vegas Palms to similar effect. I played through the requirements at Royal Vegas and requested a cashin ($10). At Vegas Palms I lost the $20 bonus. Having heard nothing from Royal Vegas about the $10 I went back to my account a couple of days later and found $11 there. My thoughts at the time were that they had returned the cashin to my account because it was lower than the minimum check amount and also I thought I had asked for $10 to be cashed in. Thinking I must have been mistaken about the amount I cashed in again and also changed my payment preference to Neteller from check as I had forgotten to do this. I then sent an email to Royal Vegas asking whether they would credit my Neteller account with the cashin. I got a standard reply from them which led me to believe it was ok. I day or so later I tried to access my 7 Sultans account only to find it locked. I phoned customer services to be told all three Fortune Lounge accounts had been locked due to 'fraudulent related activities'. He was no more forthcoming than that. I then emailed Wim O the VP of Operations to see if he would elaborate. Later that day I got an email from Shantell at the Player Security Dept. saying:
'Your accounts have been permanently locked at our casino, due to fraudulent related activities, which we will not disclose.
Our records show that you purchased a total of $525 on all your casino accounts, and the total cashins paid to you amounts to $1256. Based on the purchase to cashin ratio, your total purchases of $525 will not be refunded.' Now these figures are wrong. In July I purchased $100 at each of the casinos and requested cash ins of $694. My total purchases at all three (I have played twice at each) are $635 and my total cashins are $1439. Either way their figures are just plain wrong.
A further message from James, Customer Care Consultant informed me that the accounts had been locked due to 'sharing identifiers'. It then occurred to me that I had a different email address for my Neteller account so I phoned customer services and spoke to James who told me they were not concerned about this but he would not discuss it further.
Needless to say I was issued with checks for the cashins and later informed that these had been cancelled 'due to fraudulent activities linked to multiple accounts'.
Let me say that I do not have multiple accounts. I have one account at each of Royal Vegas, Vegas Palms and 7 Sultans. I am mystified at this and I'm appalled at the way I've been treated by Fortune Lounge. Needless to say I've pitched this bitch to Bryan.

 

[fortunelounge]

I am busy investigating this issue and will get back to you.

VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

 

[johnnydemp]

"it has now prompted me to implement a process where I will personally evaluate every account that is locked in order to ensure that we do not have a situation such as this again."
VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

Here we go again!!! I feel for you Mikej28, I just went through the same BS with them 2 weeks ago. But weve changed -FL hahahaha

 

[jpm]

Remember, this incident happened in early July and Wim just made that statement about personally evaluating locked acounts a couple of days ago.

 

[gambler]

It is odd IMO.
I have played at Fortune Lounge Casinos multiple times and never had a problem at any of them.
It's odd how certain people seem to get singled out.

 

[jpm]

Yes indeed. I never had any problem cashing out in 4 out of 5 of their casinos, then a couple of months ago the 5th one wanted me to show proof of funding on my neteller account before they'd process my cashin. I complained about it here on casinomeister and Wim responded immediately and fixed that problem within a couple of days. Never had a problem since, and all my w/d's go thru in about 2 - 3 days to neteller.

 

[mikej28]

That's all very well Gambler and JPM but clearly in some cases things are going seriously wrong and blameless players are being wrongly accused and are not given the opportunity to prove their innocence because FL refuses to enter into any kind of discussion. It's a case of we've decided you're guilty and as judge, jury and executioner we've decided this is your punishment. Not only are we not going to pay you your winnings but we're taking your deposits as well. This is a very rough form of justice.
Whilst I understand FL wants to protect its casinos from fraudsters it seems to have problems distinguishing the guilty from the innocent. If it wasn't for this forum those of us who have been wrongly accused would have to suffer in silence.

 

[gambler]

Mikej,
I completely understand what you are saying.
My post was really to point out that it is odd how some players get this sort of trouble.
In my limited experience of Online Gambling and FL, I think they are more likely to sort things out for you than most.
I wish you luck, please keep us informed as to the outcome, because FL are my favourite group to play at the moment.

 

[fortunelounge]

As there seem to be several accounts linked to this account, the investigation is taking longer than anticipated and I will respond as soon as possible.

VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

 

[skidmark]

A likely story indeed FL. From all the thread reading I've done recently I dont know what to think of FL, man its really tough to see their side of these matters being that they occur with such frequency. I used to be a huge supporter of FL till up to about 3 weeks ago when I requested a large cashout to be paid via neteller and they sent me a check. Man that really pisses me off. I take the check to the bank and they put a 30 day hold on it, not complaining about the bank cause who would cash such a large check, well into 4 figures from a freakin online casino. Now I have all that money locked up when they could have sent the payment to neteller then I could have sent it from neteller to my bank account direct. All could have been avoided if FL would have simply done what I requested. Why do they even have a preferred payment page? Then the topper, they tell me it happened because you have to have an account for 3 months before they will process cashouts to neteller. This I knew was just BS cause I opened an account at another one of their casinos a month earlier and was paid to neteller. Why cant they just admit they f'd up instead of lying? Either way, that ordeal combined with reading so much crap about them on these forums has made me back away from FL.

 

[jpm]

skidmark, I believe there is a limit of $2000 on payments to neteller. This may explain why you ended up with a check, it sounds like you won more than that.

 

[glodge]

IMO it's best to always request a wire transfer if the win is $2K or over. Least it hits your bank account, and there is not the hassle of a clearance hold that may get placed on a cheque ( check ).

 

[cipher]

You're absolutely right JPM there is a two grand limit on Neteller transactions. Have a good one.
Cipher

 

[skidmark]

I cashed in just over 1800$, sorry if I made it seem larger then it was. But either way they lied about why they sent a cheque. If they lie about such a simple issue then it cuts holes in their credibility for larger matters.

 

[jpm]

Are we making a mountain out of a molehill over whether payment was by check or neteller. You still got paid in full, which is really the important part!

Granted you have to wait for the check to clear, but that is largely the bank's policy and not the fault of the casino. Those checks are drawn on US banks (I know, I get them sometimes too) and should be processed in no more than 7 days. 3 days if its in the same state as your bank.

I just don't see this as some type of major issue or insidious plot by the casino to screw you over. It costs them more money to cut a check and send it to you than it does to send it via neteller. And you got the whole thing. To me, this is nothing more than a minor inconvenience.

 

[jamesdean]

These guys paid me by check too after I ask via their cashin method request forum and sent an email asking for neteller. They told me as well I had to have my account open for 3 months after I questioned them on the mix up. I thought this was an unusual thing to do. Thats why I have decided to play at other casinos that can pay me the way I want.

 

[jpm]

Wim said last week that they have since rescinded that rule.

 

[mikej28]

Fortune Lounge is your investigation still ongoing? I am anxious to know how it was possible for someone to link 'several accounts' to my accounts. Clearly, this has important implications for other people who play at FL casinos. I'm sure they wouldn't want to find themselves in my position.

 

[crushgrove]

FL, I am waiting to see if all has been fixed. As I just went through this I would hope that the changes you guys say you are making are being implemented. Could we please get an update on this FL?

 

[mikej28]

It's now a week since we last heard from Fortune Lounge. What's going on?

 

[skidmark]

I guess FL is taking the 5th on this one. I'm thinking not all the bugs are worked out of their system yet even after 4 months of supposed improvements :crazy:

 

[fortunelounge]

My apologies for only replying to mikej28's posting now but the investigation took longer than anticipated as I wanted to ensure we were correct in our decision.

It was found that his account was, without any doubt, linked to other accounts through multiple identifiers. The decision was not based on one set of linked details only.

As the value of the cash-ins he received far exceed his purchases, we will not be refunding any purchases in this case.

skidmark and jamesdean: The decision to waive the 3 month waiting period on Neteller refunds was only made recently. Your cash-ins obviously happened before that. Please check previous postings.

VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

 

[mikej28]

So Fortune Lounge you've made me wait a week only to repeat your original allegation. I don't doubt that you've found that my account, and here I'm assuming that you're referring to Royal Vegas because I don't know otherwise, was 'linked to other accounts through multiple identifiers'. What I'd like to know is how this was possible because I am in no way responsible.
What I do know for certain is that there is no way that you can have proved without doubt that I have committed a fraud because no such evidence can exist since I know I did not create these linked accounts.

You say that your records show that I purchased a total of $525 on all my casino accounts. Now assuming here, because once again you haven't explained yourself, that you're referring only to purchases made in July, there is the question of the $225 over and above the $300 in purchases I made across my three FL accounts. Where did this come from? Not from my Neteller account or credit card that's for sure. So how was it financed?
You say 'the total cashins paid to you amounts to $1256. What happened to the $562 over and above the $694 I originally cashed in (before Neteller bonus-related deductions?). How are you linking these transactions to me?
Your response looks like an attempt at a whitewash and tells me nothing. You've just repeated what I already know. I'm sure other people reading this won't feel reassured. What people who play at FL casinos want to know is how it was possible for someone to breech your security procedures and link accounts to my accounts. If it can happen to me it can happen to them.

 

[mikej28]

Well, it seems that answers to my questions will not be forthcoming. FL remains as evasive and unhelpful as ever. The sad fact of this whole sorry affair is that every word of my account is true. Unfortunately, it seems that I'm not being believed. I take it that Bryan's silence indicates that he thinks that I've been less than truthful too. That's his prerogative, but on this occasion his instincts are wrong. I'm not one of the 50% who pitches bogus bitches.

Something has gone very wrong here but it seems FL is relying on the fact that I cannot prove that I am not responsible for linking these accounts to my accounts. I can show I deposited $300 via Neteller, but as for the outstanding $225 where did that come from? I don't have the first idea how to link accounts and I don't even understand how the scam's supposed to work. Perhaps someone could enlighten me. If I did have the knowledge I'd probably be using my time more lucratively rather than trying to clear my name on this forum. I certainly wouldn't have spent time playing $324 and $424 hands' worth of BJ for the sake of $20.

FL has blackened my reputation without being able to prove beyond doubt that I am responsible.
It seems this is enough for them. As long as they maintain the appearance of doing the right thing then that's ok. I only hope for the sake of other players that FL has discovered how this happened and has closed the loophole. It's my view that FL would have emerged with more credit had it held its hand up. Instead it prefers to blame me rather than admit to any failings in its own systems. When casinos administer this kind of rough justice perhaps we shouldn't be too surprised when certain politicians seek to have them banned.

 

[The Dude]

<hr size=0>quote:<p>FL remains as evasive and unhelpful as ever. The sad fact of this whole sorry affair is that every word of my account is true. Unfortunately, it seems that I'm not being believed. I take it that Bryan's silence indicates that he thinks that I've been less than truthful too. That's his prerogative, but on this occasion his instincts are wrong. I'm not one of the 50% who pitches bogus bitches.<hr size=0>​

This has been a dialogue between you and the casino, thus my apparent "silence".

Should I pursue this any further? Or should we drop this. Please let me know.

 

[mikej28]

Bryan, I would very much like you to pursue this matter further. For the life of me I cannot fathom how this situation has come about. At the very least I'd appreciate some more detail on the issue and some answers on the sums outstanding.

 

[fortunelounge]

mikej28

As previously posted we have established that you are linked to other players. It is our policy to lock such accounts as it constitutes fraud.

You purchased a total of $740, cashed in $1 971 and actually received $1 317 after we managed to stop some checks when we locked your account. No other refunds will therefore be made to you.

It is not in our interest to lock any accounts unecessarily and we therefore try to be absolutely sure of our facts before we do so. We have made some errors in the past and those we were quite prepared to rectify and even compensate players for the inconvenience. In your particular case, I gave you the benefit of doubt and we investigated your accounts again. The result was the same.

We regret that you hold us responsible for "blackening" your name but, as this issue was raised in a public forum, we had an obligation to this forum and it's members to respond.

VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

 

[valles]

FL, I am happy that I quit playing with you more than a year ago. There is absolutely no excuse for stopping checks like you have been doing on several occasions without even taking 2 minutes to write the players in question an email informing them about your decision.

(Message edited by valles on August 14, 2003)

 

[mikej28]

This situation is getting more and more ridiculous. On July 15th your Player Security division emailed me to inform me that my accounts had been locked due to 'fraudulent related activities'. As I pointed out in may first post on this matter your email added 'Our records show that you purchased a total of $525 on all your casino accounts, and the total cashins paid to you amounts to $1256. Based on the purchase to cashin ratio, your total purchases of $525 will not be refunded.'
You now say, quote: 'You purchased a total of $740, cashed in $1,971 and actually received $1,317 after we managed to stop some checks, when we locked your accounts.' Perhaps you could explain how the totals have changed since my accounts have been locked?

Do you really think I would be continuing to protest my innocence on this forum if I'd already
defrauded you of $1,317?

For the record in January and February 2003 I purchased a total of $335 across my three accounts. I cashed in a total of $745. In July 2003 I purchased $300 across all three accounts and cashed in a total of $694 ($654 minus Neteller bonuses). So, as previously stated, the total purchases are $635 and total cashins $1439.
You cancelled cheques to the value of $177, $222 and $255 (see your email to me of 29th July). So in effect I have received a total of $410 in winnings from January/February which has been somewhat offset by the $654 you have confiscated from me since. I have received nothing else from you. I don't know where you sent the $1,317 (or was it $1256?) but it didn't come to me. Have you investigated this thoroughly? How can you be sure I was responsible?

My problem all along with you is that you clearly have not got to the bottom of this issue.
Someone has linked accounts to my accounts and appears to have defrauded you as a result if we can believe your figures. How many more times do I have to say that I have one account at each of Royal Vegas, 7 Sultans and Vegas Palms. I have deposited twice at each casino, played twice at each and then played out additional wager requirements relating to Neteller bonuses at Royal Vegas and Vegas Palms.
Only one of us seems to have our facts straight here. I repeat if this can happen to me it cannot happen to someone else. I will continue to
protest my innocence until the truth emerges.

 

[jpm]

It sounds like FL is saying that you may have multiple accounts under different player names or something.

Wim, maybe you can elaborate on what exactly you mean by "you are linked to other players". That may help explain why he was locked out.

 

[mikej28]

No I don't understand it either. I take it that 'shared identifiers' means that some of the information (name, address, email address, IP address, credit card, Neteller account) I provided when I opened my three accounts appears elsewhere in other accounts. But why? Surely this is easily detected.
I'm guessing this whole affair revolves around the $11 that was in my Royal Vegas account, which I thought was the Neteller related cashin returned to my account. How did that $11 get there? It suggests that someone else had had access to my account. I could understand it if someone had made deposits from my credit card and then used that money to try and win more. But that didn't happen.

FL has been particularly unhelpful and their only contribution has been to keep repeating the charge. And today's post with a whole different set of figures has just thrown the whole competence of the investigation into doubt.

What really gets me is that they lock my accounts and confiscate deposits and winnings on the basis of allegations of fraud that they cannot be sure I had any part in. They then say I received monies gained fraudulently without knowing for sure that it was I who received them and use this as a basis for confiscating my deposits and winnings. They are just recouping from me, the innocent victim of this, sums stolen by somebody else. They also rely on the fact that I cannot prove I didn't collude in this
and that it's really their word against mine. The only just solution is to return my deposits.

 

[caruso]

It'll be interesting to see what Bryan makes of this. I don't think FL claim multi IDs on a wing and a prayer.

 

[fortunelounge]

valles: Please note mikej28's posting where he indeed mentions the notification he received from us.

The account was locked due to mikej28 being linked to other players who are playing from the same computer. All these players share the same purchase and play patterns which confirms the link further.

Mikej28 claims that we cannot substantiate our claims that he has been attempting to defraud our casino. He, on the other hand, can also not prove that he did not attempt to defraud us and that he is not linked to the other players. In this case, we are confident that we are correct and we excercised our right of admission to the casino.

He has already received more than his deposit (which he is claiming back over and above the winnings he has already been paid). We are not going to refund his deposit.

Our Player Security Manager has been trying to contact mikej28 telephonically but has been unable to get hold of him. He has sent him an e-mail explaining the purchases and cash-ins in detail and we are quite prepared to publish proof of the checks and refunds back to his credit cards which he claims he has not received.

Again, if we are wrong, we are wrong and we will do everything necessary to rectify the situation. We did not take this particular stance without very careful consideration and enough proof to convince us that it is not in our interest to accommodate accounts from this player and those associated with him.

Everyone knows that business is tough and that it is suicidal to lock just every account you regard as being suspicious without proof (or risk the negative publicity as in the case of this thread).
In this case we stand by our decision.

VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

 

[mikej28]

It's nice to get some detail on this matter at last. There are a couple of points I still don't understand. When you say I'm being linked to other players who are playing from the same computer do you you mean we're all playing from the same computer or that this group of players uses the same computer? Are you suggesting that I am in concert with these players or that we are just linked by purchase and play patterns?

As far as the figures you have quoted are concerned I see that you are also including play at Desert Dollar and Vegas Towers. Since these
casinos have never been mentioned in this context before it is hardly surprising the figures didn't make sense to me. I still don't see where the $525 you originally quoted comes from but I'm assuming that this was a mistake.
I freely accept that I have played at all five casinos but I don't see how this constitutes fraud.

 

[sirius]

Have other players played any of the casinos on your computer?

I've not heard anything from Wim for a while. I've had to keep resending copies of emails to prove I was sent a promotion for three accounts but nothing has been done. I only got the bonus in one of them. This should have been sorted out six weeks ago.

They don't seem to be able to find out who they send promotions to even though each of the promotional emails had my name and account number!

He also said some guy who emailed me asking for help was in a Russian syndicate but he was in Canada! They had confiscated his deposits and winnings.

 

[sirius]

I forgot that about three weeks ago he finally emailed me saying he'd arranged to have the player's deposits refunded (these purchases were not recent at all):


"I was really under the impression that I got back to you on the issue with [player's name removed].

We can, unfortunately, not re-open his accounts but I have arranged for his
purchases to be refunded back to his credit card.
"

I think Wim said he was linked to 140 players too!

By the way, I've just resent promo emails once again to Wim as I didn't receive a reply (I last sent them 9 days ago). I only got the bonus in 7sultans and but not in Vegas Villa or Vegas Palms.

(Message edited by Sirius on August 16, 2003)

 

[mikej28]

No, I'm the only person who uses my computer, which I acquired new in March. This also applied to my previous computer (on which I played in January and February). I have no knowledge of the other players they mention. Of course it is entirely possible that my purchase and play patterns might be similar to theirs, but surely this could apply to many players. Since that would just be circumstantial evidence I'm assuming they believe they can link us in some other way. I await further details.
The crazy thing is that if they'd agreed to discuss the matter with me in the first place I wouldn't have felt the need to air it on this forum and the ridiculous guessing game as to what exactly they were accusing me of could have been avoided.
Desert Dollar and Vegas Towers were never mentioned and of course don't appear on the FL web site so I had no idea they were including them in their figures.

 

[pokeraddict]

What is it about this group? If security is so good then how come it cant pick up multiple users on a computer right away? My wife set up a play money account at paradise poker to learn omaha H/L when i already had one for real money. She didnt know any better. Before she could even play we were both locked out. I got that corrected, she can play on my computer but only for play money. I feel sure this technology is openly available. Even if security picked up multiple users by allowing him to play and play, and wait until cashout to bring this out is wrong. You accepted his deposit, it seems he played a while with your group since January, if nothing was ever charged back it makes no sense. It's win win for the casino. If you lose they take it, if they win you dont pay. Is it that multiple users only matter when they win? If this guy lost and lost i doubt they would have refunded his money cause there were multiple users on his computer. Did the so called other users charge back? There again thats something security should have stopped right away, not wait 6-8 months to decide this person is winning, time to use an excuse not to pay. This group seems to have the highest number of complaints of any online group, and certainly almost all of the MG complaints. Any casino that accepts a signup, accepts a deposit, deposit clears, and allow players plays for months must pay winnings. Even if there was some T&C that was broken because its inexcusable to allow someone to lose, but when they win use the T&C excuse.

 

[tim5ny]

Fortune Lounge Manager... you have no idea how much money you,re losing due to the bad press you,re getting here and elsewhere on the internet. Good online forums like this can run your business right into the ground. Why would you think you can treat people like shit and expect no repercussions? I think most people do their homework before depositing money into an online casino, and the ones that don,t, learn the hard way by falling prey to businesses like yours.

 

[fortunelounge]

tim5ny:

We are well aware of the effect of these postings in the forum and naturally we are concerned.

Do you expect us to make pay-outs to players who have deliberately defrauded us ? In this case someone who has already received more than his purchases back from us ?

I have stated several times before: If we are wrong we are wrong and will gladly admit it. If a player has been treated unfairly or has suffered unecessary inconvenience, we will compensate him.

It is unfortunate that, when we stand our ground, we are seen as treating players like s**t. When we supply a direct and firm reply we are seen as being arrogant.

Any casino that does not have adequate fraud control processes in place runs the risk of losing their merchant account and you do not have any idea of the magnitude of on-line fraud we are dealing with on a daily basis. By protecting our merchant account we also protect our players.

pokeraddict and sirius: I will contact you regarding the above issues.

VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

 

[caruso]

Casinos should be taken to task on the forums, and lose business as a result, for their wrongdoing. They should NOT be BULLIED into taking an inappropriate course of action when they are NOT in the wrong, by players trying to pull a fast one. Do not assume Mike is in the right by default simply because he's the player.

If Mike is in the right, FL had better apologise for their mistake and recompense him. If Mike is a fraudster, I hope Bryan will disclose his personal details and publically humiliate him to the maximum possible. Fraudsters are entitled to ply their trade, but they are NOT entitled to any backup when things go cock-eyed.

I've played here for over two years now, and the only slight irritation I've suffered was rather pointlessly being asked for security documents recently. Other than that, I give them a clean bill of health, and rate them as one of the best MG outfits out there.

 

[tim5ny]

Your point is understood Sir!, and I am glad to see that you are concerned enough to reply at this forum. We....."the players".. are already playing against a sizable house edge when we enter a casino, and we all know that. When I read a complaint from one or two people against a casino, I usually don,t make any judgements at that point. The player may just be someone trying to scam... or just a sore loser. But when there are numerous complaints about non-payment for wins, over and over, what do you think a person is going to think? Can everyone be wrong? I think you can win some people back by doing the right thing, and by being open to criticism and questions, but for now I think alot of people are spooked. Respectfully, Tim

 

[mikej28]

FL quote: 'When we stand our ground we are seen as treating players like s**t. When we supply a direct and firm reply we are treated as arrogant'.

Naturally I would expect the casino to stand its ground when a player claims he or she has been wrongly accused. As for supplying a firm and direct reply I have already made the point that the reason I felt compelled to air my complaint on this forum is because FL refused to discuss it with me either on the phone or by email. This goes to the heart of the way casinos treat their customers. Elsewhere on the forum posters have made the point that customers are often regarded with contempt covered by a thin veil of politeness. It is my experience that it is often very difficult to get casino employees to listen and that often extreme persistence is required in order to gain satisfactory resolution of a problem. In this case all I am seeking is a sufficiently detailed explanation of what it is I am being accused of backed by evidence.
I would respectfully suggest that given the level of online fraud you are experiencing that in your efforts to eradicate it some players are being wrongly accused.

 

[wanda5]

FL,
I just read the posts on this subject from beginning to end and I because I went through some major confusion myself recently (a different situation not with FL), I totally felt like I understood exactly how frustrated the OP felt. I want to tell you FL that the whole multiple players using the same account, its just totally confusing to me, I read all of your posts & I still don't get it. I really want to understand what that means. Does it mean that the OP abused the bonus' by signing up under several different names having several different accounts? or does it mean that you believe he allows other people to play at your casino on his account? There have been a few instances where my husband signed up for a casino from his computer and months later I signed up on my computer not knowing he already had & it can really get confusing when there's so many casinos. Since he was the only one with a credit card in his name at the time I always signed up under his name. When I finally got a credit card in my name I started signing up under my name and boy did that mess things up even worse because neither one of us could remember who, where or if we signed up. So we would have to send two emails asking if we had accounts. We have since created a spread sheet on excel! The two casinos that this happened at treated us like deadbeat bonus abusers when this really was an honest mistake. I will admit, we were bonus mongers in the beginning, we didn't know anything about how it all worked, we were just new and excited and jumped at any bonus we could find, even bragging when we beat each other to the punch, but we never would have intentionally broken any rules. I don't understand why anyone would jeopardize a possible huge cashout for an extra bonus. Anyway now I am confused about the account situation, am I not to be playing on an account in my husbands name? does this mean multiple user? I have never had any problems with FL myself (if we have an account there? lol) but I have to say, from these posts, FL I just don't see any proof on your part that you have shown. Maybe you did it privately, but if you did you should explain it better because I certainly (as Tim5ny puts it) am spooked. I say this respectfully, & not to seem rude, but it looks like a casino can just say "we think you have multiple accounts" end of story, we don't have to explain it or prove it, the end, you lose. When you pour so much money into these casinos you certainly expect that you will be treated with excellent customer service but unfortunatly I have not seen a whole lot of that due to abusers I assume. Well, maybe the OP did something like what my husband and I did, and if he did its a bummer for him that he won, and yes, you should keep his money if he made the mistake but it sounds to me like he just wanted to know WHY even if it was his fault & to explain what happened clearly. I hope this makes sense because I cant be the only one who is confused about this, ok maybe I can : )
Thanks
Wanda

 

[pokeraddict]

FL I still give you some of the benefit of the doubt that firepay screwed up our issue from months ago. My point of that post is why is it until a cash out, and it sounds like several, to catch multiple accounts. Even sending a check and stopping payment on it. If it was bonus abuse you accuse, how do you know that the players were not legit and different people? If there wasnt a chargeback it must have been legit and different people. That just sounds too unorganized and costly. Was there a chargeback while the check was in the mail? That sounds like the only reason you would cut a check, mail it, then stop payment on it. It sounds like this player is all about having this issue resolved in open forum, or your evidence shown in open forum. Why cant your software pick up multiple users right away? I know you investigate users when they sign up. I was locked out after an hour of playing on your software, only to get it resolved later with an im sorry and bouns which was appreciated at the time and I have seen over and over again your group is open when it screwes up. Your post though that this player cant disprove your allegation there are mulitple users is outrageous though. How would he disprove that? Also, like ive said before, if your security is so good why did it take months to discover multiple users when this is something that seems so easy. Were they on different computers? If so the only evidence you would have is similar payment options. I'm fine with you contacting me in the open forum here. Anything you have to respond to me im fine with.

For the record everyone, if you havent been around a while. FL and I had an issue before from payment. FL and Paradise Poker both contacted me that they had not been paid from Firepay. Paradise took the money right from my player account. FL and I had not done business in months so money wasnt there. Firepay was not cooperative, only sending me emails stating "Your account is in good standing" or "There are no issues involving your account" etc. That account is still open but I dont use it. Firepay never sent through one electronic payment for 1/3 the amount of money that the combined Paradise FL claim was. I couldnt figure out how this could have happened, offered to meet FL halfway since it is more likely Firepay screwed this up since Paradise was saying the same thing. FL insisted I pay them in a way that would expose my bank account to possibly more fraud. FL even called my house at 6-7am, a clear violation of US law. They apoligized later to me for this and in this forum. I offered to mail an int'l money order or send a western union, or send a paypal personally since obviously i cant use that for gambling but person to person is OK but they refused to give me info on how to do that insisting I pay them another way. Since I felt like this was not my issue since I could prove the amount of money was wrong by going to my bank and there was always more then enough money in this money market to cover these transactions and Firepay told me all along this never happened I decided that this was not my issue and I had certainly spent too much time and even offered to compromise that would have made me double pay for something that wasnt my fault just to try and clear my name. Now I hardly ever play at the traditional type casinos, mostly because of this issue. I stick to playing poker at mostly bigger sites and send cash so that this can never happen again. Paradise, Party, Americascardroom, and Victorias poker all are happy to take my international money order or western union and cover the costs. That way I never have to worry about this issue again.

 

[pokeraddict]

I also agree with Caruso about if this is fraud then this player deserves to have the details shown that he is a fraudster. He has invited it. When I had my issue with FL my details were brought out and I had no issue with that, even though I still disagree that I charged anything back, I dont even think thats possible to charge back a electronic debit. I dont assume he is 100% correct but it seems the player has no issue with this evidence being brought out in the open. Player......... do you? I would like to see it.

 

[mikej28]

Well, the situation is this. FL has refused to provide me with any more information than they already have. So it seems we have reached stalemate.

 

[fortunelounge]

tim5ny:

Your comments are appreciated and if you have been following the several posts around this theme you will have noticed that we have rectified several issues where we were wrong and we publicly admitted to the fact. This is one of only two cases in the last two months where we have stood our ground because we are convinced that we are not wrong.

I can understand (and I am concerned) that players may feel "spooked" because of this situation. Real, legitimate players should, however, feel comfortable that we are protecting their interests too. The way in which we handled previous issues should also give players the confidence that we, at least, are concerned which is manifested in our open and honest communication and participation in this and other forums.

wanda5:

Casinos generally do not allow more than one account per household. In this particular case, the player opened accounts under his name and then several other accounts were opened thereafter with different names but all playing from the same computer and location. As further verification, play and purchase patterns were also the same. Mikej28 never admitted that he was sharing his computer with any friends or relatives.

pokeraddict:

We are not talking about bonus abuse here. We do not lock players out for abusing bonuses.

In this particular case, mikej28's accounts were opened first. He played, won and cashed in and we processed these cash-ins. Then later, the other accounts were opened and we discovered the link immediately at that time which was also after we paid out another cash-in to him. We then cancelled the check as part of our standard procedure.

Under normal circumstances, we would have refunded his deposits but, as he already received more money from his cash-ins than he deposited, we decided not to refund his deposits as well.

In terms of supplying the full details of this case, we have already supplied enough information without compromising our fraud detection processes. There is certain information we simply cannot publish as it will educate fraudsters to bypass our systems. In this case there are also names of other "players" attached to the information and we are not prepared to publish these as well.

The statement of mikej28 that we have reached a stalemate seems accurate.

His accounts will not be re-opened. We will not be making any further refunds to him. We also feel that we have disclosed enough information regarding this case and that, defending our point, will be a fruitless exercise.

We will gladly continue to participate in any discussions related to our casino group. On the subject of mikej28, however, we regard the matter as closed.

VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

 

[jinnia]

I do know (think I know..grin) when you log onto an online casino, make any transactions within the bank, it records your 'computer' ID. And this stays the same unless you f-disk, and install a completely new and different operating system software.

So maybe that is how FL knows (claims to know) there are many accounts linked to one computer...???

 

[mikej28]

FL's account of my actions is just not true.
As I have already explained I opened accounts at Vegas Palms in January and at Royal Vegas and 7 Sultans in February. In March I opened an account and played at Vegas Towers and Desert Dollar. During that month I also acquired a new computer. I used this new computer when playing at Desert Dollar. In July I downloaded Royal Vegas, 7 Sultans and Vegas Palms because I had previously played them on my old computer. I had problems starting the download on 7 Sultans so I had to enter my email address and hit 'download' several times. Eventually it downloaded ok. I then reactivated my old accounts. As I've already also pointed out I purchased both these computers new and they have not been used by anyone else. I only have these accounts and I have not nor has anyone else opened other accounts. There has to be some other explanation.
Perhaps somebody more knowledgeable about computing can offer an explanation. Are IP addresses always unique for example?