eCOGRA and fortunelounge were not honest with me

**22sithon** · 24th April 2006, 06:01 PM

Royal vegas casino together with eCOGRA treated me in a very rude way, letting the casino confiscating my money for no reason.

Here is the story. I played at Royalvegas casino which is part of the fortune lounge group, I am 84 years old and their terms were hard to understand, 20% count on this 80% on this , this game is allwed, this one is not and also they put I think more than one bonus in my account from the beginning but this was not the problem.

The problem started when they sent me an email after I cashed in $2770 that since I did not wager enough they are going to process the winnings without the bonus on my next cashin. Since my deposit was 100 and I won about 2600 I was happy with that and accepted that.

I cashed in again, then they send me an email that they are confiscating all the winnings because in their terms it says that once they give you a second chance and you don't wager on that second chance they are allowed to confiscate the winnings. Well, excuse me, this is not what you wrote me in the email you sent.

I explained them that I am 84 years old and might have made a mistake but this is not the right way to treat the problem they might have with me but they ignored me.

I saw that Royal vegas is approved by an organisation named eCOGRA so I tried them to help me but they were awful, all they had to tell me is that the casino followed his term and they even warn me by an email.

I don't know about the term but the email was totally different and here is the email to show who is right here, there is no way to make mistakes.

I kept sending Emails to Tex from eCOGRA and also the casino emails but they ignore me again and again, I had no choice but to try the forums.

Here is the email they sent, of course they never honored that email and left me with my deposit back and a locked account.

Here is the first email they sent telling me that if I cash in again they are going to process the winnings without the bonus

Hi xxxxx,

We refer to your cashin of $2770 on your Royal Vegas account number
rvrxxxxxxx.

We'd like to inform you that the amount you have requested to withdrawl
includes certain bonuses
which you have received from various promotional offers. All of our
bonus allocations have wagering
requirements associated with them before they may be withdrawn.

In light of this we have credited the bonus amount back to your casino
account,
as you needed to wager $4000 on any of the games that are not excluded
from the wagering
requirements, before you may withdraw this amount. (Please note: A
maximum of 20% of your wagering requirements
can be met on BlackJack for certain bonuses).

You only wagered $800 correctly, and therefore the following bonuses
have been re-credited
to your casino account as per our Terms and Conditions.
$2770 Royal Vegas 100% match upto $100

If there is a remainder left after re-crediting the bonus to your
casino account, the
Cashin (excluding the bonus amount that was re-credited to your casino
account) will be processed
accordingly and will be on its way to you.

Please note that should the wagering requirements for any bonus not be
met in future, the bonus
will be forfeited by the casino and deducted from your next cash-in.

Should you require any additional clarity on your options, please do
not hesitate to contact us.

For more information regarding the wagering requirements of promotional
bonuses, please click on the link below:

http://www.fortunelounge.com/promote...BTag=FL_Direct

It written clearly as you can see "Please note that should the wagering requirements for any bonus not be
met in future, the bonus
will be forfeited by the casino and deducted from your next cash-in. "

And then they sent this email after the second cashin:

Hi xxx,

We refer to your cashin of $2770 on your Royal Vegas account number
rvrxxxxxxx.

We'd like to inform you that the amount you have requested to cash-in
includes certain bonuses, which you have received from various
promotional offers. All of our bonus allocations have wagering requirements
associated with them before they can be cashed in.

Please note that we have deducted the forfeited bonus from your
cash-in, as you needed to wager on any of the games that are not excluded
from the wagering requirements, to cash in this amount. (Please note: A
maximum of 20% of your wagering requirements can be met on BlackJack for
certain bonuses).

You only wagered $800 correctly, and therefore the following bonuses
have been forfeited as per our Terms and Conditions.
$100 Royal Vegas 100% match upto $100

Should you require any additional clarity on your options, please do
not hesitate to contact us.

For more information regarding the wagering requirements of promotional
bonuses, please click on the link below:

**soflat** · 24th April 2006, 06:23 PM

I think they are referring to the following clause in the Royal Vegas sign-up bonus T&Cs:

"If you attempt to withdraw before meeting wagering requirements, you will be advised to continue wagering and the funds will be returned to your casino account. If you attempt to withdraw more than once (1) without meeting the requirements, you will forfeit your bonus and winnings, and have your purchase refunded if possible."

**spearmaster** · 24th April 2006, 06:48 PM

You have to admit that the email is not very clear. It does not warn of forfeiting bonus and winnings - it does say the bonus will be forfeit. It also doesn't say that the player needs to complete wagering of (amount) before attempting a further cashout.

That said, it is also the responsibility of the player to read the terms and conditions before playing.

I would think that FL and eCOGRA may want to find a middle ground here as it is evident that the email is confusing. However, I don't think you can go so far as to say that either of them are wrong.

**chuchu59** · 24th April 2006, 07:31 PM

It is clearly stated that bonuses will be forfeited if a second cashin is initiated although WRs have not been met. Doesnt this imply that only the bonuses which amount to $100 in this instance should be the maximum that can be confiscated. FL has only itself to blame because the whole e-mail referred only to 'bonuses' and not winnings derived from them. Let alone an 84-year old but even someone half his age would come to the conclusion that only a max. of $100 would be deducted. i doubt whether this could be interpreted any other way.

**soflat** · 24th April 2006, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by chuchu59

It is clearly stated that bonuses will be forfeited if a second cashin is initiated although WRs have not been met. Doesnt this imply that only the bonuses which amount to $100 in this instance should be the maximum that can be confiscated. FL has only itself to blame because the whole e-mail referred only to 'bonuses' and not winnings derived from them. Let alone an 84-year old but even someone half his age would come to the conclusion that only a max. of $100 would be deducted. i doubt whether this could be interpreted any other way.

If you want to get technical, didn't they say that they had recredited $2770 in bonuses back to his account after the first withdrawal request?

**Linus** · 24th April 2006, 10:37 PM

Wow. What a poorly worded and misleading email.

I'm sure what they MEANT to say, was that they would confiscate ALL the money, including the deposit, bonus, and winnings, if she tried to withdraw again (without first meeting the bonus requirements).

What they did say --- "the bonus will be forfeited by the casino and deducted from your next cash-in" --- would have left anyone with the impression that they'd deduct only the $100. IE, the bonus amount.

22, I'm sorry they did this to you. Maybe the Meister can help you out.

After having read all this, I wonder if it was intentional (hoping she would cash-out again, so they could seize ALL her funds) - or just (another) example of incompetence Royal Vegas' part.

Either way, this isn't the first complaint I've heard regarding this outfit.

I had an account there, once upon a time. I got rid of it, because 1.) their bonus conditions are so whacked, and 2.) they just didn't operate like a competent & trustworthy organization.

**vinylweatherman** · 25th April 2006, 01:32 AM

I play occasionally, and am well aware of this nasty trap and don't get caught. I thought also that it was the bonus that was confiscated, not the players own money and winnings.
That E-mail is a real mess, it makes no sense gramatically, referring to the bonus being token refunded and the winnings being paid, but then says the full balance has been refunded.
Previous issues have been related to them removing the biggest bonus, rather than the unwagered last bonus.
I think the players location (Israel) has something to do with this, casinos will think that a player mistake may be more than just that. This player being over 80, and the fact that it is impossible to accurately track wagering even with simple unweighted terms, let alone percentages, weightings, and whether doubling up counts, as well as what constitutes a qualifying game.
I don't believe that $2770 from $100 + $100 comes from "abusive" playing methods, but rather a willingness to place high variance bets and hope to get lucky.
It is this sort of tale, when taken at face value, that leads to the impression that it is a war of tricks and strategy between player and casino, rather than a straight forward wagering relationship.
I disagree with any confiscation of funds just for playing the wrong games and not wagering enough. I would support token refunding repeatedly till the player complies with the terms, and barring them from further promotions if they continue to disobey the terms.
Fortune Lounge have told me that if there is any doubt, players should contact the CS before submitting a withdrawal request and ask them to check that all WR have been cleared, preferrably in writing by E-mail. This is the sort of supporting evidence that would be required to take a complaint to eCogra. The E-mails posted just show that CS dealt with this poorly, but that the player did indeed breach the posted terms. I would like to know why they activated the full confiscation though, rather than removing just the bonuses. This is the term that all casinos have, but is only supposed to be enacted when they discover deliberate player fraud or attempted fraud.

With this being the players first post, and the age given as 80+; there will be a few doubts as to the integrity of this story, and maybe the casino has been thinking along these lines. It has been suggested that up to 50% of these complaints are not giving the full story.

**eranluv** · 25th April 2006, 08:52 AM

we have a kind of a situation here because the email says one thing and the T&C says another.
I think It's one of the cases where the casino is making use of a clause when they shouldn't be.
It's like the famous clause that the Casino reserves the right to...

It's ovious that they are just trying to avoid payment, I mean, the player didn't commit any fraud, he earned the money in a decent way but made a mistake in the cash out.
Come on guys!! that's not a reason to steal 2,600$ from him!!!

**fortunelounge** · 25th April 2006, 09:01 AM

The issue has not been forwarded to us by eCOGRA and as they are quite diligent with any issues referred to them I suspect that the 22sithon's mails may not have reached them for some reason or the other.

I would appreciate it if 22sithon can forward me his / her details and I will look into the issue.

VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

**soflat** · 25th April 2006, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by eranluv

... the player didn't commit any fraud, he earned the money in a decent way but made a mistake in the cash out.
Come on guys!! that's not a reason to steal 2,600$ from him!!!

I agree! Give the guy another chance.

And Fortune Lounge should think about revising its email so this kind of misunderstanding does not happen again.

And why make him go through eCogra again?