Silly Hand

[guesswest]

Have posted on the casino forums for a bit, have noticed the poker forum is always quiet so thought I'd share this hand. Is a bad beat for sure, but not posting it to bitch, was just so amazed when he turned his cards over thought someone else might get a laugh out of it too.

Was in a $1/$2 NL Holdem game yesterday. Everyone folds to me in late position and I raise $10 with A10 offsuit. The SB calls, BB folds. Flop comes A107, all hearts. I bet $30, other guy calls. Turn is 6d, I figure whatever he has this is a blank. I've been at this table for a while, I don't think this player would play a made flush this way, I think I'm ahead but this guy has been chasing everything, theres a few draws on the board, so I push all in for $160, hoping to take the pot down. I also figure he might call me with AK etc, and I'm ok with that too. This guy, who has roughly the same stack as me, calls instantly. The river comes Queen of hearts. He turns over.......Jack of clubs, 4 of hearts. What the hell is that?

[winbig]

Originally Posted by guesswest

Have posted on the casino forums for a bit, have noticed the poker forum is always quiet so thought I'd share this hand. Is a bad beat for sure, but not posting it to bitch, was just so amazed when he turned his cards over thought someone else might get a laugh out of it too.

Was in a $1/$2 NL Holdem game yesterday. Everyone folds to me in late position and I raise $10 with A10 offsuit. The SB calls, BB folds. Flop comes A107, all hearts. I bet $30, other guy calls. Turn is 6d, I figure whatever he has this is a blank. I've been at this table for a while, I don't think this player would play a made flush this way, I think I'm ahead but this guy has been chasing everything, theres a few draws on the board, so I push all in for $160, hoping to take the pot down. I also figure he might call me with AK etc, and I'm ok with that too. This guy, who has roughly the same stack as me, calls instantly. The river comes Queen of hearts. He turns over.......Jack of clubs, 4 of hearts. What the hell is that?

Internet poker at its best

[nafanny29]

I had a hand like that a couple of moths ago on Crypto NL $25.
2 limpers and me on the SB with 44 and BB checks. The flop comes AJ4. 1st player bets $5 into a $2 pot. 2nd player raises to $10. I re-raised all in for $45 and BB calls, as do the the other 2 players. Everyone ends up all in on the flop and our hole cards show. A4, AJ, JJ and my 44. Turn and river both small clubs putting 4 clubs on the board. I had the only club out of all 4 players I couldnt believe it

[KasinoKing]

Originally Posted by guesswest

Have posted on the casino forums for a bit, have noticed the poker forum is always quiet so thought I'd share this hand. Is a bad beat for sure, but not posting it to bitch, was just so amazed when he turned his cards over thought someone else might get a laugh out of it too.

Was in a $1/$2 NL Holdem game yesterday. Everyone folds to me in late position and I raise $10 with A10 offsuit. The SB calls, BB folds. Flop comes A107, all hearts. I bet $30, other guy calls. Turn is 6d, I figure whatever he has this is a blank. I've been at this table for a while, I don't think this player would play a made flush this way, I think I'm ahead but this guy has been chasing everything, theres a few draws on the board, so I push all in for $160, hoping to take the pot down. I also figure he might call me with AK etc, and I'm ok with that too. This guy, who has roughly the same stack as me, calls instantly. The river comes Queen of hearts. He turns over.......Jack of clubs, 4 of hearts. What the hell is that?

... that is the guy's 4-year old son playing with the 'puter when daddy went for a wee-wee...

[Casinomeister]

Originally Posted by KasinoKing

... that is the guy's 4-year old son playing with the 'puter when daddy went for a wee-wee...

[dickens1298]

Originally Posted by guesswest

Have posted on the casino forums for a bit, have noticed the poker forum is always quiet so thought I'd share this hand. Is a bad beat for sure, but not posting it to bitch, was just so amazed when he turned his cards over thought someone else might get a laugh out of it too.

Was in a $1/$2 NL Holdem game yesterday. Everyone folds to me in late position and I raise $10 with A10 offsuit. The SB calls, BB folds. Flop comes A107, all hearts. I bet $30, other guy calls. Turn is 6d, I figure whatever he has this is a blank. I've been at this table for a while, I don't think this player would play a made flush this way, I think I'm ahead but this guy has been chasing everything, theres a few draws on the board, so I push all in for $160, hoping to take the pot down. I also figure he might call me with AK etc, and I'm ok with that too. This guy, who has roughly the same stack as me, calls instantly. The river comes Queen of hearts. He turns over.......Jack of clubs, 4 of hearts. What the hell is that?

Someone once told me that most bad beats are actually self-induced, since you allow the other player to suck out.

Not sure what your betting style was previous to the hand, but perhaps he had you figured (wrongly) on a bluff. If that was the case, then from his perspective he was merely calling you on the bluff.

You had already alluded to his play as a maniac, but instead of tightening your play, you played rather fast and loose with your two pair. Granted, you had paired both over cards on the flop, but you'd likely want to play a higher ranking hand when playing with a maniac, if not the nuts themselves. He could easily have been holding a set after the flop, or low connectors and be on straight draw.

[guesswest]

OK, I'm the first person to acknowledge faults with my own game, and I encourage people to point out the ones I miss - there are many. I play full time, I spend about an hour every morning going through game logs picking my play apart from the previous day. In this particular hand tho, what you said just doesn't fly.

In the first instance, I hadn't played a hand in about an hour, I was a rock on that table, precisely because it was a loose table. I was waiting for an opportunity to extract chips on a favourable bet, it came and I feel I played it right. I'm a tight aggressive player, and that's absolutely the winningest type of play in a NL game. And I was willing to take the risk, very much in my favour based on his previous play, and laws of probability, that he hadn't flopped a set. I knew this guy was dumb enough to be calling on a 4 card flush or inside straight and I was going to make him pay way above and beyond pot odds for the privelege. And let's not forget, had I known the guy was holding jx4h, I'd have WANTED him to call, because in the long-term that's a hugely profitable bet to get called - so him calling is a good result, not a bad one.

Which is another thing, I'd have been 'allowing' the player to suck me out if I slowed down betting, not the other way around. Putting him all in at the turn is doing everything that's humanly possible to shut out a draw, it's the exact opposite of what you're talking about. In fact, if I can see a valid criticism of how I played the hand, it's that I should have bet less precisely because i WANT him to call with draw, provided I'm not giving him pot odds.

But that's all irrelevant anyway, he can't 'call my bluff' with nothing. He didn't have a pair, he didn't have a high card. Whether I'm bluffing or not he still has to beat me, he wouldn't beat me on average with two randomly dealt cards, nevermind considering my pre-flop raise, and esp factoring me betting into him. His chances of being ahead, even against a stone cold bluff, on that board, are miniscule.

I'm going with the 4 year old theory I hope he invests his winnings wisely, rather than fluttering them away on toys and candy

[dickens1298]

Originally Posted by guesswest

OK, I'm the first person to acknowledge faults with my own game, and I encourage people to point out the ones I miss - there are many. I play full time, I spend about an hour every morning going through game logs picking my play apart from the previous day. In this particular hand tho, what you said just doesn't fly.

In the first instance, I hadn't played a hand in about an hour, I was a rock on that table, precisely because it was a loose table. I was waiting for an opportunity to extract chips on a favourable bet, it came and I feel I played it right. I'm a tight aggressive player, and that's absolutely the winningest type of play in a NL game. And I was willing to take the risk, very much in my favour based on his previous play, and laws of probability, that he hadn't flopped a set. I knew this guy was dumb enough to be calling on a 4 card flush or inside straight and I was going to make him pay way above and beyond pot odds for the privelege. And let's not forget, had I known the guy was holding jx4h, I'd have WANTED him to call, because in the long-term that's a hugely profitable bet to get called - so him calling is a good result, not a bad one.

Which is another thing, I'd have been 'allowing' the player to suck me out if I slowed down betting, not the other way around. Putting him all in at the turn is doing everything that's humanly possible to shut out a draw, it's the exact opposite of what you're talking about. In fact, if I can see a valid criticism of how I played the hand, it's that I should have bet less precisely because i WANT him to call with draw, provided I'm not giving him pot odds.

But that's all irrelevant anyway, he can't 'call my bluff' with nothing. He didn't have a pair, he didn't have a high card. Whether I'm bluffing or not he still has to beat me, he wouldn't beat me on average with two randomly dealt cards, nevermind considering my pre-flop raise, and esp factoring me betting into him. His chances of being ahead, even against a stone cold bluff, on that board, are miniscule.

I'm going with the 4 year old theory I hope he invests his winnings wisely, rather than fluttering them away on toys and candy

Ok..let's take a look from another perspective. As the SB, his call pre-flop merely costs him $9. No biggie. So he calls your raise - which IS slightly aggressive, since you'd be in a race against any wired hand that the blinds may have, and you have nothing but A10 off suit.

Flop comes out all hearts. He now has the turn and the river to complete his flush. You have top two pair - but if he's holding hearts, you need the Ace or 10 to fill you up to win. I'd check - basically theorizing that if he was chasing another heart, he wouldn't hesitate to call my bet, and if he's already flushed, my chances of catching an A or 10 are around 10%. If you represented a flush on your bet - and your $30 bet did not - he'd likely fold, since his 4 hearts are unlikely to be the nuts regardless of what he drew.

True, your all-in bet wouldn't have represented pot odds for him (I figure he had a 20% to catch the flush on the river, and you were better than a 7-1 favorite with your possibility of still filling up on fifth street), but he likely wasn't even calculating pot odds. Any component could have been in play for him - he felt "lucky", he was tired and had no problem in committing money on the 20% chance of catching a heart, he was just fooling around - but we'd honestly never know. But you still have to figure than 15% of the time you'd lose in that same situation. In short, the hand was just one of those times a seven rolled around on a craps table.

You mentioned that you'd want him to call on a draw. I'm more cautious - he may not have flopped a set, but he might have flopped a flush. And if he had suddenly shifted gears on you and represented a draw, the tables are suddenly turned, and YOU are doing precisely what HE wanted you to do. True, the odds are in your favor, but I tend to play more conservatively with loose players, and not let that one in 7 chance of me losing affect my chips too greatly.

Personally, I play tight with loose players. I'd be wary of large bets with anything less than the nuts, and certainly not on a draw. Switching gears doesn't always work with these ADHD-afflicted internet players, since some don't even take the time to notice.

[guesswest]

This is getting interesting, good to see a conversation about a poker hand on here, nice change from all the 'Playtech stole my first-born child' threads

Will take what you said point by point:

Originally Posted by dickens1298

Ok..let's take a look from another perspective. As the SB, his call pre-flop merely costs him $9. No biggie. So he calls your raise - which IS slightly aggressive, since you'd be in a race against any wired hand that the blinds may have, and you have nothing but A10 off suit.

This is kind of contradictory as you're saying it's 'no biggie' to call 5x the BB, but also saying my raise is aggressive. I agree with the latter, I raise most hands I play about the same amount, I'd have raised suited connectors this way in a different situation. Obviously I'm thinking on this particular occasion it's likely I'll just take the blinds, especially bearing in mind my history of tight play. Since I have a marginal hand like A10 I'm fine with that. But if not, if I'm called, I do have a hand I can play. The purpose of the 5xBB raise is to get people pot committed. I have some amount of confidence in my own play, both in terms of getting chips in the middle when I hit, and getting away from flops when I miss or they're not buyable. Also, the pre-flop raise makes it easier (in theory) to put my opponents on hands when the table cards get interesting. This hand was a good case in point re: pot building, the pot was already worth playing for when the flop came, that is I'm sure the only reason this guy chased his flush draw at all. Maybe he's simply bad enough that he'd have called the flop bet even to a nothing pot, but most players aren't. Now, if a loose aggressive genius like Phil Ivey had called me with J4off here I'd maybe entertain the possibility that he had some sneaky plan to take the pot from me. But that's clearly not the case, the guy just plain and simple made a dumbass call with a trash hand, and 5x the BB IS a sizeable raise. He called 9x what he'd put in the pot already.

Originally Posted by dickens1298

Flop comes out all hearts. He now has the turn and the river to complete his flush. You have top two pair - but if he's holding hearts, you need the Ace or 10 to fill you up to win

Let's not forget he's drawing to a flush from the 4 here. He has nothing like good odds on calling a bet to make his flush even with a draw to the nuts, but if he does hit it the chances are great with the info he has that it's not even winning. With the odds of hitting coupled with the odds of him being on top, I'm not even convinced he is drawing in his mind, I think he's just hitting the call button out of boredom, or whatever.

Originally Posted by dickens1298

I'd check - basically theorizing that if he was chasing another heart, he wouldn't hesitate to call my bet, and if he's already flushed, my chances of catching an A or 10 are around 10%. If you represented a flush on your bet - and your $30 bet did not - he'd likely fold, since his 4 hearts are unlikely to be the nuts regardless of what he drew.

Checking here is a horrible play IMO. If he wouldn't hesitate to call a bet on the flush draw, that's all the more reason to make one. If I bet into him and he's calling on a draw I'm favourite to take down the pot. If I can get another player to call my bets in any situation at all where I'm mathematical favourite in a cash game, I'll do so, since in the long-term it's profitable play. As to my bet representing the flush - I probably would have played a made flush against this particular player in a pretty similar way it turns out. It'd be a good flush to bet at as it'd look like a scared bet, which would keep all the draws in play. And regardless, theres no good reason to slowplay a hand when your bets are getting called, you just risk not winning as much as you should - it also gives you more ability to trap later when it is the right play. And just a correction on your math, my chances of making a boat from that flop are actually much better than 10% - about 25% (27% assuming he has neither A/10, 25% a good rounder for practical purposes, factoring that people play pairs).

Originally Posted by dickens1298

True, your all-in bet wouldn't have represented pot odds for him (I figure he had a 20% to catch the flush on the river, and you were better than a 7-1 favorite with your possibility of still filling up on fifth street), but he likely wasn't even calculating pot odds. Any component could have been in play for him - he felt "lucky", he was tired and had no problem in committing money on the 20% chance of catching a heart, he was just fooling around - but we'd honestly never know.

It didn't represent anything CLOSE to pot odds, and even if he hits he's far from guaranteed to be ahead. My chances of the riverboat aren't actually a factor, because the A10h are already out. But yes, I get 7-1ish too, and yes, I can only assume he was feeling lucky or bored or something - because clearly it's a horrendous call.

Originally Posted by dickens1298

But you still have to figure than 15% of the time you'd lose in that same situation. In short, the hand was just one of those times a seven rolled around on a craps table.

As I said in the original thread i didn't post the hand to bitch about a bad beat, I laughed out loud when he turned his cards over, and thought someone else might share my amusement. The result was the best result I could possibly hope for, which is why I don't feel bad about how I played the hand - I managed to get my whole stack in on a bet I was 7-1 favourite to win. That's a very profitable play over time, and as many people wiser than I have pointed out, you don't get paid for winning pots in poker, you get paid for making correct decisions.

Originally Posted by dickens1298

You mentioned that you'd want him to call on a draw. I'm more cautious - he may not have flopped a set, but he might have flopped a flush. And if he had suddenly shifted gears on you and represented a draw, the tables are suddenly turned, and YOU are doing precisely what HE wanted you to do. True, the odds are in your favor, but I tend to play more conservatively with loose players, and not let that one in 7 chance of me losing affect my chips too greatly.

Like I said, I'd been sitting with this player a while and made a judgement that he wouldn't play a made flush this way. Of course I could be wrong, but I made a decision with imperfect information, like you have to do, and as it turns out I was right this time.

Originally Posted by dickens1298

Personally, I play tight with loose players. I'd be wary of large bets with anything less than the nuts, and certainly not on a draw. Switching gears doesn't always work with these ADHD-afflicted internet players, since some don't even take the time to notice.

I play tight with loose players too, which is why I hadn't played a hand in a long time, but I play tight aggressive. I flopped a genuine big hand, and heads up was more than prepared to take the risk that I was on top. I'll lose that wager sometimes, but win it more times than I lose it, and assuming you can bankroll the rebuy, that represents positive expectation, which you should always take in any cash game. If I can think of a valid criticism of how I played, it's that I bet too high on the turn, because the risk was that I didn't get called. Getting called was a great result not a poor one. It's in a sense irrelevant that he sucked me out, what's important is that I got my whole stack called down in a situation with huge positive expectation, and in terms of the part of the game I have control over, that's the best possible outcome I can hope for.

[Tdoggy]

Moron!!! lol Wow hope it was his 4 year old...

I play poker a lot. And have seen it all. But here are a few that recently boggled my mind...Both good and bad....

Heads up tourney first hand for 50 dollars we both start with 1500 in chips. I get dealt an A J. I raise from 30 to 90 chips right off the bat. He calls. Flop comes A A A!!! Holly crap!!! I of course slow play and check. He shocks the hell out of me by going all in!!! GOLD!!! I got 4 of a kind he's done...I call and he flips over 10 6???? I fell out of my chair

I'm in a tourney of 84 people. Buy in 5 bucks we all start with 1500 in chips. It's down to 25 people. I got about 20k in chips. I get dealt an A K and player at the table before me goes all in with 15K in chips...Shit! I got A K I figure he's got a pocket pair I got to call. I call and he flips over K K. I'm like NO!!! I need and Ace...Flop comes 10 9 K!!! Oh man I'm screwed Fourth street comes A! And then the River A!!! "He was like WTF!!!! We both couldn't believe it. That did it for me, I was able to hang around and finish 3rd after that... Couldn't believe it....

Ok now the bad beat. Probably the worst I have ever seen for me. Heads up tourney I get dealt K K first hand. We both start with 1500 in chips. Player against me raises from 30 chips to 120! I re-raise to 300 in chips! He goes all in! I think for a minute could he possibly have pocket Aces??? No way!! I call he turns over 2 4!!! YES!!! He is so done!!! flop comes 2 4 4!!!! WHAT THE HELL??? Couldn't believe my eyes...Oh and this was a 50 dollar heads up tourney...OUCH!!! THAT ONE STUNG!!!

Poker fun but torture at the same time!!!