PokerStars

[Nazareth]

Guess he stopped winning...

No sir- I haven't stopped winning- Just got sick of arguing about htis woith people that won't check out whta I'm saying and just want to argue- I also noted that you two talked aBOUT this very topic over in another thread & agreed with the poster about this very concept- interesting- Why agree i n that thread yet argue like a banchee in this thread? The patterns are there in free play in poker room- I could go on and on about it- but seeings as ghow noone is going to make the effort to check it out for themselves- I won't

or finally took it to heart about what everyone was telling him, and that real money tables differ much more than play $.

What in THE heck? That's what I've been arguing all along- You've lost track of what this thread was about. I've been saying that FREE play tables are patterned- I've never argued that money tables were because I've never played them. Oi! I give up

[chalupa]

I (for one) understand what you are saying (I think). I just disagree with your conclusions, even when using your own data.

I think what you are seeing is readily explained for the reasons I already outlined in previous posts -- e.g. differences in player styles, players coming and going from the tables, and the natural appearance of "patterns" in random data.

However, I did think of a good way to test your theory that removes the extraneous human factors that I mentioned.

Get yourself and nine of your closest friends (or any chimp who can press a button) to sit down at an empty play money table. Instruct everyone to simply check/call every hand to the river. Record who wins, and repeat for 1000 hands.

Keep track of it by seat number in an Excel spreadsheet or something and I'm sure one of our resident statistics freaks (or Mr. Wizardofodds.com guy) would volunteer to analyze the results. I'd be willing to bet $1000 that the results are well within the realm of statistical probability.



Another thing to consider (I may have mentioned this already)...

If there truly were inexplicable runs of wins by one seat or another at the table, such orderly high-level behavior would be exceedingly unlikely to be the result of an accidentally flawed RNG used to shuffle cards to a constantly changing number of players (trust me on this one, or ask a software guy).

That would mean that the site was intentionally creating that behavior, and I can't imagine any motive they would have for doing that, especially only on play money tables. And it's not simply because I'm unimaginative , because I can think of ways to rig a site that would be both profitable and difficult to detect.

[Nazareth]

Two quick points- Yuo can actually test what I'm saying with a deck of real cards yourself- just deal 9 seats over & over & record results- don't need the friends actually.

You will not find

#1 the amount of straights that come up as does poker rooms deals
#2 the number of wins/runs by certain seats on such a consistant basis
#3 If you had say three decks, and you deal three 'tables', and one seat was winning at one of your tables, you would not be able to move to another table in that same seat and start winning as consistantly as you do at poker room in the fake money rooms. There IS a definate pattern of 'runs' that goes on- Moving to another table in pokerroom and winning in those same seats more than backs this up. IF it only happened infrequently- I could say it was a fluke- a coincidence- It's <b>not</b> happening infrequently- it happens everytime I go on. An d I'll tell you another thing I'm noticing lately- That certain seats will go on long 'runs' - it happens about 3 times a day or so- AND, if I move to another table at the same seat- I'll be the one on that long 'lucky streak' & not the one getting hammered by the guy with the 'lucky steak'. This simply can't happen in real poker games- not with the frequency and consistancy that it happens in pokerroom. It's not the number of players- not the amount of people moving in and out of the game that determines this patterning- infact- when a person in a winning seat leaves for whatever reason & someone comes in and takes their spot- they continue the winning streak until it's time for another seat to have their 'streak'

In the experiment listed above, Yes, yo will experience mini runs from time to time- nothing unusual about that- BUT you will not experience the consistancy and frequency of these mini runs that you do in pokerroom play money tables. Chalupa- I'm sitting in a room- watching what players are hitting, and I'm honestly able to say to myself "Red dress is due for her run' and in a couple of hands- Red Dress is hitting several hands. Then I'll watch her get dealy several sucker hands & lose but be kept betting right to the river. These aren't just lucky guesses on my part-

That would mean that the site was intentionally creating that behavior, and I can't imagine any motive they would have for doing that, especially only on play money tables.

The whole point of htis thread was that they don't have reason to do that in money rooms- they do however in fake money rooms- it's my contention that fake money rooms are geared toward enticing players to set up real money accounts. I mean my gosh- I had a run the other night that was unbeleivable- everyone quit betting agaisnt me- it was so bad that at one point I had to tell everyone not to bet because I had 6-6 and the flop showed 6-6-3

The table WILL go random from time to time- butr my contention is that, and this is just a thought, that players account numbers are pre-set. %There are times when you will get totally shut off & nothing you do will matter- you will not win- for hours on end- Everythign you get dealt will be beat- You may win a few hands- but very few. It's luaghable- You'll be on such a 'losing streak' that you can predict what is going to happen- AND it will happen. You'll draw the K-Q clubs, the flop will come up with two clubs- you'll bet, then a spade will show, then sure enough a club comes up- only one problem- the fella next to you- the one who can't lose- The one who has been beating your pairs with a higher pair (That's another point I wanna make- Watch how many itme s in pokerroom that three or four people are dealt pairs at the same time & watch how furious the betting gets when this happens) has either A-9 Club, or he has a full house- (That river card was the card he needed too) This will go on for hours on end.

Meh- I could go on and on- I've stated it all- I'm witnessing this night after night after night- you guys are simply theorizing 'why it can't be so' - I'm telling you, it is so- Not only am I frustrated at pokerroom for this patterning, I'm frustrated at the fact that people who don't play there deny that it is happening even though I'm witnessing it first hand everytime I go on.

[chalupa]

Yuo can actually test what I'm saying with a deck of real cards yourself- just deal 9 seats over & over & record results- don't need the friends actually.

You will not find

#1 the amount of straights that come up as does poker rooms deals
#2 the number of wins/runs by certain seats on such a consistant basis

Actually I think I WOULD find that (assuming my shuffling skills are up to snuff ), but ONLY IF you compared it to a Poker Room experiment with 10 players who always showed down their hands at the river.

But asking me to compare my controlled results from a deck of real cards to your non-controlled observations and your seat-switching play against multiple changing players with various styles won't prove anything.

A controlled experiment on Poker Room needs to be done to convince anyone.

Let's both put up $1000, we both watch a controlled 10-player table and record the results, and have the results analyzed by a third party to determine who's right.

The wizardofodds.com guy would probably do the analysis for us to determine the winner, out of intellectual curiousity and/or a cut of the winner's take.

it's my contention that fake money rooms are geared toward enticing players to set up real money accounts

Well... if that's the scam, so far it doesn't seem to be working. You haven't set up a real-money account, and nobody else believes you.

But, yes, I suppose some players might set up a real money account if they felt they had a system that could beat non-random play money tables.

Personally I would probably STILL avoid such a site, on the assumption that a site which had no scruples about rigging their play money tables would also have no scruples about stealing my money with a different scam at the real money tables.

[Nazareth]

But asking me to compare my controlled results from a deck of real cards to your non-controlled observations and your seat-switching play against multiple changing players with various styles won't prove anything.

Their playing style really doesn't come into account here- I can sum up their style in one word- BET EVERYTHING.. Lol=- The point here is not style or folding or anything like that- the point is that they are going to the river & I -Ah I'm not explaining htis well.

If all hands are played to hte end, the patterns are still there- whoever is 'slated for their run' can bet anythign that they are dealt- literally- I've played some really crappy hands and won when my seat was winning- it wouldn't matter what anyone's playing style was- they were not going to win-- they couldn't- they wouldn't have had the cards they needed until my slated run was over- then it's off to the red dress girl, then the jogger suit woman, then white shirt- then you might see it get random for several hands- then wham- right back to the patterns or runs-

I have been taking notes- & I have been watching this happen night after night. I have hours and hours and hours of rounds written down

But asking me to compare my controlled results from a deck of real cards to your non-controlled observations and your seat-switching play against multiple changing players with various styles won't prove anything.

I guess I aint gonna convince anyone- I simply posted my findings here as a heads up to those who might play there in the fakem oney rooms- a heads up about un-randomness (Is that a word?)

But, yes, I suppose some players might set up a real money account if they felt they had a system that could beat non-random play money tables.

I'm not really suggesting that that is their motive- I think it might be more like "Give em runs- then give em cards that that come close but don't wuite make it to keep em betting & thinking that 'hey, I can win, Yeah, I bet sometimes when I shouldn't, but it averages out- maybe I aughta give the real money rooms a shot'

It just isn't good poker when 8-3's are winning, when K-2 offsuits are always winning etc. IF you're gonna stay alive in the free money rooms- you WILL have to bet on crappy carsd, and you will have to call everyone's raises.- that just aint good poker- BUT I suppose most free online poker rooms are like that. Make sure that people that play sloppy have frequent runs & you got em hooked- got em convinced they could make a go of it in the pay rooms. That's whaT I'm suggesting their intentions are.

I dunno man- I aint good at trying to explain thigns- that's why I asked people to check it out for thmeselves if they didn't beleive me. For those that do play there- I gave this info incase they thought masybew somethign was going on but just couldn't quite put their figner on it- I'll tell ya- I didn'
t notice it for awhile myself & just couldn't get ahead really. That isn't the case anymore- I haven't chnaged my play at all, haven't 'improved' etc- All I've done is do the same thing I've always done plus watch which players are on their 'runs' then m,oving to other rooms and sitting in those seats.
Before I noticed that- there was no way I was going to be 4-10 thousand ahead on most days

I give up on this- I stated my case- people can take it for what it's worth- beleive it or not- but if ya sign up at poker room and get frustrated, and go through hours uopn hours of being shut off from the right cards- I can tell you that there is a reason why- beleive it or not.