MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT: APCW HAS MERGED

[Webzcas]

Originally Posted by mojo

I always believe in transparancy. Should players be interested in reading they can do so here:

http://www.gpwa.org/forum/what-do-yo...zy-177751.html

There is also disruption in the affiliate world. This is what affiliates are about. There is nothing like the truth.

I hadn't seen that. Interesting!

Thanks for the link.

[mojo]

Originally Posted by Webzcas

I hadn't seen that. Interesting!

Thanks for the link.

Not only interesting but a big change in the affiliate world. Hopefully for the better.

[Webzcas]

Originally Posted by mojo

Not only interesting but a big change in the affiliate world. Hopefully for the better.

I think we are on the same page

[Casinomeister]

Originally Posted by mojo

I always believe in transparancy. Should players be interested in reading they can do so here:

http://www.gpwa.org/forum/what-do-yo...zy-177751.html

There is also disruption in the affiliate world. This is what affiliates are about. There is nothing like the truth.

Oh, my.

[Webzcas]

Originally Posted by Casinomeister

Oh, my.

I was thinking something similar when I clicked on that link also. It was a bit more colourful though.

[KasinoKing]

Originally Posted by Pinababy69

EDIT: Thought I'd go glance really quick at GPWA.org and Casino City, never been to either. Main page of GPWA, Chipleader is a Silver member. Chipleader of the Absolute Poker/Ultimate Bet notoriety. And main page of Casino City? Third casino down the right hand side.....Joyland Casino, third MOST popular casino in fact. Oh, and #61 on their "list" of online casinos? You betcha.....CIRRUS!!

Pina, I totally agree with everything you've posted in this thread. I'm all for giving people second chances, but not third or fourth ones...

When I first heard people recommending Casino City as a top portal I went & had a look & could not believe what I was seeing! The place is littered with 'rogues'.
The way GPWA advertise reputable places makes me want to vomit, so you can imagine how I felt when I saw that sickening GW video...

IMO they are just 'selling out' to make a few extra bucks (realistically a few hundred thousand extra bucks) which personally I think is a bad thing for everyone in this industry.

Talking of CIRRUS and selling out - what's with the banners at the bottom of the pages at WOL...?

Each of us has our own opinions on who is rogue & who is OK, who is good & who is bad. No-one has the right to tell someone else what to do, but as Dominique said, it is down to each individual webmaster & player to decide who to support & who to avoid, and make your clicks (or non-clicks) count!

KK

[jetset]

Originally Posted by Webzcas

I was thinking something similar when I clicked on that link also. It was a bit more colourful though.

Bloody hell...I have zip knowledge of the background to this bitter dispute, but it's really not pleasant to see this sort of internecine strife going on in an important part of the industry imo.

[Webzcas]

Originally Posted by jetset

Bloody hell...I have zip knowledge of the background to this bitter dispute, but it's really not pleasant to see this sort of internecine strife going on in an important part of the industry imo.

I am disappointed, but alas not surprised. It's all about the $ JetSet.

I have posted the following on the thread in the GPWA:

You were even in Barcelona this year where you tampered with and ultimately stole the JV agreement we had with APCW.

Aha. Lou has shed light as to the reasons behind the banning of Michael and JTodd from Cap. Surely Lou of all people should realise business is business. After all isn't that the message KWBlue was given when CAP launched their T&C alerts yesterday.

I have to say from my own personal dealings with Michael on the few occassions I have had the pleasure of meeting him. He has been nothing but up front and honest. To the extent that he will openly admit that the affiliate programs on the GPWA are sponsors and are not certified.

I have been out of the game pretty much for a year up until a few months back due to personal reasons. Coming back to all this crap is ridiculous. We are in the same industry. However it looks like someone is more concerned about their own $ than the good of the industry as a whole.

[RobWin]

Originally Posted by jetset

Bloody hell...I have zip knowledge of the background to this bitter dispute, but it's really not pleasant to see this sort of internecine strife going on in an important part of the industry imo.

I agree Jet, Damn kids and their forum wars !!

[Pinababy69]

Originally Posted by dominique

If you think a site is crap, please don't click on anything there, and it will die a slow death.

No clicks, no site. No clicks, no spammers. It's all in your hands.

In theory Dom, I agree with you. Unfortunately, the truth is that most players don't even know what an affiliate is. They don't realize that when they click on a banner, that affiliate gets a percentage of their losses for life, or a flat fee for them signing up. While I always harp on affiliates who don't do any homework prior to throwing up banners....to be fair, I'll say that not near enough players do their homework either. Most of them just decide they'd like to play online, and go looking for a big, juicy signup bonus, n/d bonus, or a pretty banner to click on.

They don't know who the good casinos/bad casinos are, and thus have no clue about what constitutes a good site or a bad one. And these are exactly the people that unscrupulous affiliates and casinos like Virtual want. They don't want educated folks who understand the industry. They want fresh meat who don't have a clue what's going on.

Originally Posted by Casinomeister

Actually, I don't think that the way advertisers are paid has any bearing to advertising scruples or business ethics - be it rev share, CPA, flat fees, or sexual favors. Advertising is advertising, and most of the webmasters I know take this seriously.

Also, these things are never ending. Who's to say that in a few weeks or a few months, J.Todd may find out he's been duped. You never know. We all deserve to approach these matters within our own perspectives.

Bryan, I also agree that there isn't alot of difference in "how" an affiliate/webmaster earns their money. The major one though is....if a webmaster pulls a banner/advertising from his site, the money is cut off. If he is just an affiliate and does the same, in most cases, he will still collect his percentage of losses on players he has under him thus far.

Perfect example is the Jackpot Factory Inspirational stories debacle. I think you pulled their banners within a couple of days of that whole story breaking, and I would guess that means you no longer collected any revenue from them for that time. If you were an affiliate, you would have still been collecting your monthly commission, banners or no banners.

It may not mean alot, but it does mean something. The fact that you were willing to cut off a source of revenue for yourself, lends credibility to you, and to this site. That's a personal opinion. Maybe not everyone sees it that way.

Bottom line though (and this is not directed at you personally, but an overview), once someone earns their living from this, and depends on it to feed their family.....it cannot help but colour their opinions on certain matters. It is very hard to be totally impartial when it is your livelihood.

What I would really like to see someday, is a site similar to this one, an info site.....with NO advertising. No banners, no clickable links to any casinos. Just info. I doubt it will ever happen, but in a perfect world and all...ya know.

The balance you've tried to accomplish here isn't perfect, but it's pretty good...and by industry standard, it's tops. I realize you put alot of work into this site, and what you do for players far outweighs what anyone else does. And yes, there are other affiliates as well who go above and beyond.

I find some of the best affiliates are the ones who read this forum, and ones similar to it. Ones who at least try to educate themselves and keep up on current player issues. Off the top of my head Lots0, Swampwitch and her partner Sorrelltop, Webzcas, Dominique, bb1webs (though he doesn't come round here much), Kasino King, Simmo...and probably others, but that's just who popped into my head. Mojo as well, even though she advertised Virtual, she was willing to listen to people, and still is. There's more, but that's a short list and who popped into my head.

The downside is that if I go to Google, and type in Online Casinos, what I will get back is almost a complete listing of all rogue casinos/websites out there. How is the unsuspecting newbie supposed to know what's good and what isn't? Most only ever find this site once they've encountered a problem.

In re: JTodd, if he ever wakes up and comes to his senses, he's going to have quite a few apologies to make. And yes, he made his mark by touting freedom for U.S. players, and outlining stupid government policy, etc. Funny though.....that freedom doesn't seem to apply to others when it comes to freedom of speech, only to himself.

But it pisses me off to no end that while you make a video yesterday, once again telling people not to play at Virtual, and that there's been 27 warnings in eight years.....he's out there telling everyone that all is hunky dory, and all player issues have been resolved....which is an outright lie.

Originally Posted by mojo

I always believe in transparancy. Should players be interested in reading they can do so here:

http://www.gpwa.org/forum/what-do-yo...zy-177751.html

There is also disruption in the affiliate world. This is what affiliates are about. There is nothing like the truth.

Like I said before, I know squat about the GPWA, but having seen their "list" of casinos, I'm less than impressed. Sponsors, certified programs...what's the difference? If you're advertising for rogues, and collecting money from it...you are obviously more interested in money than the good of the industry, and the PLAYER. While it may be slim pickings as far as really good casinos go, why is it necesary to advertise for places such as Virtual? I would have to assume that the money must be really good.

As to the CAP situation, no surprise there. If you dare say a word there about any of the programs they certify....out the door you go. And what is their certification? You'd think it would mean an upstanding program that represents an upstanding casino or group, right? Wrong. It's about who can pay the monthly fee that CAP charges to become certified. It's got zero to do with credibility or reputation. The list of certified programs there is a complete joke. While they may treat their affiliates right, the product they offer to the player is way sub-standard. There is no criteria these programs have to meet, as it pertains to the player....you know, the one who pays the bills.

People keep telling me that we should all try to get along, that's the only way to change things. And to have open discussion, amongst players and affiliates. Someone should tell some affiliates that...to actually consider the player before signing up for a new affy program and throwing up a banner on their site.

These are the questions an affiliate should ask themselves before going into business with a new program:

- Is the casino they represent reputable?
- Do they pay the player in a timely manner?
- Are their bonus terms player friendly and easy to understand?
- Do they have good support staff/phone support/live chat?
- Is there a history of player complaints, and how were these dealt with?

If there are negatives in any of those things, then don't offer them to a player. Pretty simple to me. But unfortunately, when you read CAP, what you see is more of this:

- How much rev share/CPA do they offer?
- Do they bundle?
- Do they have a monthly negative carryover?
- Will I get paid on time every month?

Totally ass backwards, and until EVERYONE starts putting the player first and above all else, this industry will never be right.

If I were an affiliate and had the choice to promote a 32Red type of casino at a 20% commission rate, or a Virtual clone at a 40% commission rate...I'd take the 32Red product everytime, and tell Virtual to kiss off. How many affiliates will do that. I've even heard some affiliates say they wouldn't promote 32Red, because they didn't care for their affiliate program. My God!! So what you offer to the player means nothing then? It truly boggles my mind.

As to the GPWA, if they at the very least offer free speech and open discussion of issues there, I guess that's a start. I still doubt that my opinions would be welcomed with open arms.

Dom, I'm sorry if some of the stuff about CAP offends you...it's just an opinion, mine. Honestly, I don't know how you stand it there...because you don't seem to be the "standard" type of affiliate they represent.

As to the banning stuff, like I said, not surprising. I figure I'd last maybe a day there. At least here, I'm fairly confident that Bryan will allow me to have my say, without banning me. Even if my opinion is totally off the wall, and not in agreement with anyone...as long as I don't get personal with anyone, or use derogatory names, I think I'm allowed to say what I want here. Try that at CAP, and see what happens.

Originally Posted by KasinoKing

Pina, I totally agree with everything you've posted in this thread. I'm all for giving people second chances, but not third or fourth ones...

When I first heard people recommending Casino City as a top portal I went & had a look & could not believe what I was seeing! The place is littered with 'rogues'.
The way GPWA advertise reputable places makes me want to vomit, so you can imagine how I felt when I saw that sickening GW video...

IMO they are just 'selling out' to make a few extra bucks (realistically a few hundred thousand extra bucks) which personally I think is a bad thing for everyone in this industry.

Talking of CIRRUS and selling out - what's with the banners at the bottom of the pages at WOL...?

Thank you KK, and I'm with you. Some of it actually does nauseate me. I have sworn I am not going to watch any more of those videos. All they do is make me feel sick, and make my blood boil. It is indeed a sellout, I don't care how anyone "spins" it. It's about the money....almost always is.

As to WOL...gawd, don't tell me they have Cirrus banners now too? Simply unreal. Is this the only place that I can come now where I won't see some Virtual banner flashing in my face?

Originally Posted by Webzcas

It's all about the $ JetSet.

Isn't it always Webz? What was the Jackpot Factory stuff about? Money. What was the Microgaming White Label stuff about? Money. Why do most affiliates get into this business in the first place? To better the industry and provide a safe playing environment for the player? NO. It's about the money. Always has been, and always will be. Again, obviously...there are exceptions, so don't everyone jump on me at once.

One final thing to the affiliates who continue to promote the Virtual Group, and justify it by saying "my players have no problems, and enjoy playing there. I've never had one player with any issues there." My answer to you is....how the hell do you know? More than likely the majority of people who signed up to a Virtual shithole from you, don't even have a clue which site they downloaded from. Again, most don't even know what an affiliate is. So, how would you possibly expect them to come back to you, and air a player grievance? What happens is that they end up at this site, or a similar one, begging for someone to help them....cause they've been ripped off. That excuse doesn't fly, because your players don't even know they are your players most of the time. Chances are they aren't coming to you for help, they're coming here. And you know what? They didn't open their Virtual account through THIS site. Think about that next time you throw up a Virtual banner.