Germany pushing for Ban

[c_note]

Have not seen this posted yet (yay, I beat Jetset.. :notworthy)

Germany to Ban Online Gambling Jan. 1 Under Accord by States

Dec. 27 (Bloomberg) -- Online gambling will be banned in Germany as of Jan. 1 after German states ratified an accord that preserves the country's state monopoly for lotteries and most forms of betting.

Full article on bloomberg

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Meister, you ready to move?? (Malta is nice this time of year)

 

[REOdeathwagon]

I would assume that this affects online poker also. Seems like there has been a large push recently from the poker sites into the German market.

 

[RobWin]

Meister ?

What will become of or happen to Casinomeister's Website ?

Any comment on this Meister ?

 

[lojo]

I want c_note to expose himself and his motive or keep his trap shut.

 

[markjacob]

I want c_note to expose himself and his motive or keep his trap shut.

Why? He reported a valid and interesting story.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Why? He reported a valid and interesting story.

let's all be gentlemen

 

[RobWin]

I want c_note to expose himself and his motive or keep his trap shut.

What the hell is that suppost to mean ? This story has been in the news for a couple of days now.

 

[BingoT]

What the hell is that suppost to mean ? This story has been in the news for a couple of days now.

I like to know myself.
lojo you lost me on this one.
You having a bad hair day or something

 

[jetset]

Why? He reported a valid and interesting story.

I agree - this is an important online gambling story that has been building for the past year and is of interest and value to a great many people.

 

[lojo]

because

c has been silent so and now it can blather all it wishes. I hear a funeral for bhutto, becasue I love, and c-note's motive is not important now.

I heard afghani tumes in my heaed, boo hoo, i felt thr war occuring, i know moe thasn amoo-ja-haq-deenb. this if lojo, I have alwayws been

 

[BingoT]

So this means if someone is silent for awhile gives you the right to kick them down so they will be silent again.
Give C some Credit here at least.
I have great Meds for you to take to help you if you like.

 

[RobWin]

c has been silent so and now it can blather all it wishes. I hear a funeral for bhutto, becasue I love, and c-note's motive is not important now.

I heard afghani tumes in my heaed, boo hoo, i felt thr war occuring, i know moe thasn amoo-ja-haq-deenb. this if lojo, I have alwayws been

Dude...it sounds as though, judging by the above speech impediments that you may need to go back on break again !!

 

[lojo]

The mother of India died, freak. if your eyes are not wet, make them.

 

[BingoT]

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Right to the right place to see the story at.

 

[GaryWatson]

The mother of India died, freak. if your eyes are not wet, make them.

1. General Posting Rules:

1.12 - No "International Flaming": Please do not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another international member or guest. The use of asswipe, tool, tosspot, dickwad are fine, but please respect the community within the tone of the thread. Abusive behavior will not be tolerated and your account may be suspended. Please refrain from potty mouth language.

 

[The Dude]

Can we keep this thread on track please?

Lojo - if I need to put you on break again, I will - and then that's it - no more Lojo.

As for Casinomeister, this is an English site that does not target Germans or German speaking people. I have always had a hands off policy for German marketing and plan to keep it this way; this site has always operated within the law. If I have to turn the banners off for our German guests, then I will.

 

[c_note]

wow!!

Lojo

Whats your agenda? I posted an article, and included a reference to 2 people I seriously respect, Jetset & CM (Both comments intended to be funny, and no offense appears to have been taken by either of them). The article is very relevant to the industry, from a good source, and important to very large number of people who read this forum.

As for me not responding to a post, well, hey, Its between Christmas & New Year and I have a new son, I don't spend every moment in front of my pc. If you have an issue with that, go see a shrink. Check the times on the posts, it took 12 hours for the first response, and over 30 hours for you to spew your tripe (and I quote "I want c_note to expose himself and his motive or keep his trap shut."), and you expect me to be sitting and waiting joyfully to respond?

This is now the second time you have "called me out". Are you stalking me or something? I am 60lbs overweight, hairy, have loads of bad habits and don't care what the neighbors think. Not much to look at all. Maybe you should be looking elsewhere for love (and your pickup lines suck).

And lastly, these 2 quotes of yours :

c has been silent so and now it can blather all it wishes. I hear a funeral for bhutto, becasue I love, and c-note's motive is not important now.

I heard afghani tumes in my heaed, boo hoo, i felt thr war occuring, i know moe thasn amoo-ja-haq-deenb. this if lojo, I have alwayws been

The mother of India died, freak. if your eyes are not wet, make them.

She is not the mother of India, and has nothing to do with Afghanistan, she is Pakistani, read all about her here

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If you are going to spew tripe, at least make sure it is factual tripe.

:notworthy to Jetset & CM 'cos they deserve it

Lojo, you get one of these :baby:
Oh, yeah, and you get put on my ignore list, you are not worth the effort anymore

 

[jetset]

Touche!

QUOTE: She is not the mother of India, and has nothing to do with Afghanistan; she is Pakistani, read all about her here

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If you are going to spew tripe, at least make sure it is factual tripe.UNQUOTE

Touche!

But back to Germany....

The European Commission is unlikely to look kindly on this, assuming the German states press ahead with it on January 1. The principle is not too dissimilar to the US and its WTO problem i.e. only support those principles that you like and suit you.

In this case the motivation seems to be blatant protectionism of state gambling monopolies, and the top European gambling companies have already served notice that they intend to contest any such moves in the courts.

That, and the liklihood that the EC will haul Germany into the European Court of Justice, is something the Germans must know they are at risk of suffering here.

 

[jinnia]

Lojo

Whats your agenda? I posted an article, and included a reference to 2 people I seriously respect, Jetset & CM (Both comments intended to be funny, and no offense appears to have been taken by either of them). The article is very relevant to the industry, from a good source, and important to very large number of people who read this forum.

As for me not responding to a post, well, hey, Its between Christmas & New Year and I have a new son, I don't spend every moment in front of my pc. If you have an issue with that, go see a shrink. Check the times on the posts, it took 12 hours for the first response, and over 30 hours for you to spew your tripe (and I quote "I want c_note to expose himself and his motive or keep his trap shut."), and you expect me to be sitting and waiting joyfully to respond?

This is now the second time you have "called me out". Are you stalking me or something? I am 60lbs overweight, hairy, have loads of bad habits and don't care what the neighbors think. Not much to look at all. Maybe you should be looking elsewhere for love (and your pickup lines suck).

And lastly, these 2 quotes of yours :




She is not the mother of India, and has nothing to do with Afghanistan, she is Pakistani, read all about her here

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If you are going to spew tripe, at least make sure it is factual tripe.

:notworthy to Jetset & CM 'cos they deserve it

Lojo, you get one of these :baby:
Oh, yeah, and you get put on my ignore list, you are not worth the effort anymore

The baby made it!!!! Mother and son in good health???

"CONGRATULATIONS""

I read an article 2 or 3 days ago about this and was wondering about Meisters. So, f you don't target Germany, it's ok then???

 

[chuchu59]

Sigh! Actually, I sorta expected this to come from Lojo after his break. What else from one who is so starved for words. However, the respectable Ms Bhutto died for her country and this is something that should not be taken too lightly.

I did notice that nearly everyday there are quite a large number of members who browse this forum but dont seem to have posted. Lojo, your posts will frighten them so if only you could try to give some suggestions as how to encourage these(newbies?) to post, it may be far more constructive. How about that for a challenge.

 

[lojo]

Ah, my always diplomatic friend, chuchu. Thank you.

• Per c_note, it is my honor to be on your ignore list.
• Per jetset, I'm quite well aware of world history and my statement that Madam is the Mother of India stands, touche' ? ( Had this most important person not been brutally assasinated she would have reunited Hindi and Musli alike, and the artificial division by religion would have fallen, making her the sovereign Mother of India... and so she remains in my heart and mind)
• Per Rob, I apologize that my drunken emotions got the best of me, one must sleep now and then if one drinks as i do sometimes.

Per our gracious Host: note taken, expect no more of that behavior.
Per others, no comment.

To the anonymous reader: you have just seen the last puddle of a meltdown of a knowledgable and helpful member (moi) fear not, there are enough guard dogs of decency here to ensure that your contributions will be respected.

Per c_note again, if you are reading this; I assumed you were goading. Your secretiveness does you no favors.

 

[jetset]

[*]Per jetset, I'm quite well aware of world history and my statement that Madam is the Mother of India stands, touche' ? ( Had this most important person not been brutally assasinated she would have reunited Hindi and Musli alike, and the artificial division by religion would have fallen, making her the sovereign Mother of India... and so she remains in my heart and mind)

Afraid I find your logic here unfathomable, Lojo - not an unusual experience LOL.

 

[The Dude]

So, f you don't target Germany, it's ok then???

It's never been legal to advertise online casinos in German in Germany. That's why it's not done here (CM). I told this often to affiliate managers telling them that they are going to get some poor webmaster in a world of hurt who is unknowingly breaking the law.

To say it's okay? I wouldn't say that since nothing in this industry is 100% clear. There are constantly new laws being passed and it's difficult to figure how any jurisdiction is going to react.

It looks as though things are getting more bureaucratic here (if that's possible ), but it may be a good thing in the long haul. Look what happened in Italy, for example. Online gambling was prohibited a couple of years ago -- they tried blocking gambling sites, then they did a 180 degree turnaround and went for regulation. Italy is okay now.

With Germany, it's hard to say, but they will definitely lock horns with the EU Commission on this - especially with the Bwin victory fresh in their minds just from a few weeks ago.

One odd thing - there hasn't been a peep in the German newspapers, TV news etc., about this.

 

[Zodiac]

Article of the national treaty of gambling in germany

Here are three links and i know that i must post it in your language, sorry but its in german, while it make no fun to translate it in your language, its too difficult translating correct.

Its also very difficult to understand what you guys exactly mean and think, thats also the reason why i have not replied at some posts.

Who like and have interest to read it must translate it by himself.

Maybe Jetset make this own work.

It will gives many complains in regarding to this feeble-mindedness, our country is not better as yours, but it will always give a way.

Personally i dont think about it at this moment

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and sorry again that i'm not able to translate it in your language and if it will not going confirm with the rules you can delete it, because for you it's not important

 

[USA2112]

All countries should follow in the same steps as Italy and beggin to regulate, it cost tax payers money for these foolish fights against online gambling and it would make money if they were to regulate. Seems simple, so hopefully it does not keep getting worse and countries like the good ole USA especially and others start to wise up.

 

[spearmaster]

I'm quite well aware of world history and my statement that Madam is the Mother of India stands, touche' ? ( Had this most important person not been brutally assasinated she would have reunited Hindi and Musli alike, and the artificial division by religion would have fallen, making her the sovereign Mother of India... and so she remains in my heart and mind)

Jeez, Lojo... you assume way the heck too much. Just admit your mistake and get over it. There is not a snowball's chance in Hades that a reunification would have happened... Pakistan is having a hard enough time keeping itself together and the assassination of Benazir Bhutto is not going to make it any easier.

End of OT rant.

My opinion is that this new German law is going to be lacking teeth for the foreseeable future - by the time they figure out how to implement this new regulation, the EU will have required them to amend it.

 

[Simmo!]

by the time they figure out how to implement this new regulation, the EU will have required them to amend it.

Or more likely, the EU will let them off so long as they allow European pig farmers to have special markets on Sundays, for Austrian ballet dancers to be able to cross the border without a passport and for Swedish travel companies to be able to advertise freely in German S&M magazines.

Not forgetting that one of the main beneficiaries of the agreement with the USA was DHL, a German company. So there's already a political "trade route" set up

 

[lojo]

Jeez, Lojo... you assume way the heck too much.

My last OTP as well. I honestly believe wonderful things could have happened. She has been a heroine to me for a long time.

/OT

 

[chuchu59]

Hopefully, like mother like son.

 

[jetset]

Or more likely, the EU will let them off so long as they allow European pig farmers to have special markets on Sundays, for Austrian ballet dancers to be able to cross the border without a passport and for Swedish travel companies to be able to advertise freely in German S&M magazines.

Not forgetting that one of the main beneficiaries of the agreement with the USA was DHL, a German company. So there's already a political "trade route" set up

Nah, Simmo - that's the WTO you're thinking of LOL.

The EC will go after them, I'm sure - my only worry is that when Charlie McCreevy's reign as compliance commissioner ends next year sometime, his successor will not have the same determination and tenacity.

 

[jetset]

Hopefully, like mother like son.

Unless he's a William Pitt the Younger, this dynastic move (the guy is 19 years old I believe) is unlikely to improve matters for the Bhutto political party in a very tough political environment - and his father still has those "Mr. Ten Percent" questions hanging over his head from Benazir's last period in office as Pakistan's leader.

 

[KellyBlend]

What does this new legislation mean for a German Poker Player?

I know only one expert opinion of a lawyer firm published on the website of a German affiliate (look

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).

Since this is a paid-for expert opinion I do not want to copy or cite parts of this opinion. It is also available in German languge only.

However, I will recap some parts as follows:

As of January 1st, 2008 the participation in an online poker play is punishable for a German poker player.

Prerequisite for the punishability is the real money input which is assumed if the money input exceeds a certain bagatelle border (for example, the price of a cinema ticket - this exeption is not stipulated by law but by jurisdiction). The participation in play money games or freerolls cannot be punished.

Furthermore a great chance consists that the participation in an online poker play cannot be pursued criminal when one plays on a poker side with EU licence and the prosecution, therefore, would violate European-juridical regulations.

In addition, the lawyers see still a little chance that a so-called winning poker player could argue that poker is for him a skill play and no luck play.

 

[The Dude]

What does this new legislation mean for a German Poker Player?

I know only one expert opinion of a lawyer firm published on the website of a German affiliate (look

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

).

Since this is a paid-for expert opinion I do not want to copy or cite parts of this opinion. It is also available in German languge only.

However, I will recap some parts as follows:

As of January 1st, 2008 the participation in an online poker play is punishable for a German poker player.

Prerequisite for the punishability is the real money input which is assumed if the money input exceeds a certain bagatelle border (for example, the price of a cinema ticket - this exeption is not stipulated by law but by jurisdiction). The participation in play money games or freerolls cannot be punished.

Furthermore a great chance consists that the participation in an online poker play cannot be pursued criminal when one plays on a poker side with EU licence and the prosecution, therefore, would violate European-juridical regulations.

In addition, the lawyers see still a little chance that a so-called winning poker player could argue that poker is for him a skill play and no luck play.

I believe Austria considers Poker a game of chance. Perhaps some of the German players can cross the border and play from there

Seriously, it looks like another big confusing mess. Here is a written opinion (in English) from the offices of Hambach and Hambach which details how this law is unenforceable according to the EU treaty:

Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

I believe that there are a number of betting firms lining up to issue formal complaints after the 1st. According to one of Wulf Hambach's statements here:

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He represents about 20 firms that are prepared to do so.

Another lawyer, Michael Winkelmller of Redeker which represents Bwin and Fluxx stated: "I assume that all of the approximately 3000 German market operating gambling companies will initiate legal action."

So perhaps this law is a good thing since it will put into motion a large force to overturn it and bring in real regulation.

 

[KellyBlend]

The most difficult interpretation questions are the conflicts which arise in the interface between German and European law. The published expert opinion to which I posted the link, is likewise written by Hambach and Hambach, but imho the only one which refers in details to the most important questions especially from the poker players view. Affiliates have a lot of other problems. And it seems already clear that we will experience a long juristic battle marathon.

 

[Zodiac]

Seriously, it looks like another big confusing mess. Here is a written opinion (in English) from the offices of Hambach and Hambach which details how this law is unenforceable according to the EU treaty:

Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

i came not on the idea to look at Hambach and Hambach Website where it stands also in English that's why i've linked in german

I believe that there are a number of betting firms lining up to issue formal complaints after the 1st. According to one of Wulf Hambach's statements here:

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He represents about 20 firms that are prepared to do so.

Another lawyer, Michael Winkelmller of Redeker which represents Bwin and Fluxx stated: "I assume that all of the approximately 3000 German market operating gambling companies will initiate legal action."

i'm a little bit Bryan, because this link stands 10 posts before

what always also likes happen there, i wish you all a good start into the new year and like to go your wishes all in fulfillment

 

[jetset]

Update

THE DIE IS CAST IN GERMANY

German states clamp down on Internet gambling

As reported in InfoPowa bulletins earlier this week, the German states have literally cast the die by imposing a protectionist accord to halt online gambling in the country.

The move is sure to have serious repercussions from major international gambling groups who have threatened to litigate, and the European Commission which has already indicated that the ban is contrary to EU treaty principles on the free passage of services and trade between member nations.

All 16 of Germanys states have ratified the accord which, as of 1 January, prohibits foreign remote gambling operators from offering their services to German customers. Restrictions have also been placed on the advertising of gambling services in Germany.

The new online gambling laws will be valid until 2011.

Internet censorship sensitivities are also trampled by the accord, which authorises German states to require Internet service providers to block gaming websites or websites that promote gambling. One element of the law clones Americas controversial Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act (UIGEA) in that financial institutions may be ordered to stop money transfers related to online gambling transactions.

Last year, the European Commission called German plans to totally ban Internet gambling disproportionate and urged the states involved to reconsider the new law. The way is now open for more pressure from the European Commission, which is responsible for compliance, and this could ultimately see Germany hauled before the European Court of Justice.

Germany's defence of its move against Internet gambling services is based on its claimed right to protect the moral and financial welfare its citizens, but as in other European nations with protectionist bans, this rings hollow as long as state gambling monopolies remain active and deliver revenues to the government.

 

[jetset]

GERMAN ONLINE GAMBLING BAN UNCONSTITUTIONAL SAY EXPERTS

Top lawyers confirm that new banning accord contravenes both the German constitution and European law.

With criticism and threats of international litigation mounting, the 16 German states remained under siege today for implementing a New Years Day accord banning online gambling and introducing Internet freedom-sensitive rules.

The boss of UK betting company MyLotto24 - a subsidiary of German giant Tipp24 - Carsten Frein echoed the parent company view, commenting: We consider the state treaty on gambling as clearly illegal and will take legal action if necessary.

"Reports by notable constitutional lawyers such as Professor Bodo Pieroth or Professor Hermes confirm that the treaty contravenes the German constitution and European law. The EU and the German Monopolies Commission have also taken up a clear stance in this sense.

Frein said that there would be no impact on the UK side of the business, but that in Germany, the company is restricted in its marketing communications until a resolution is reached at court level.

Operators Bwin, Fluxx and Tipp24 have all criticised the developments (see previous InfoPowa report).

 

[jetset]

EGBA attacks German ban

GERMANY ACCUSED OF ONLINE GAMBLING BREAK WITH EU PRINCIPLES

EGBA kicks off 2008 with a formal complaint on protectionist German ban

Just two weeks into 2008, and fourteen days since the German ban on online gambling was implemented (see previous InfoPowa reports), Europe's Internet gambling industry has served notice on the Germans that it will contest protectionist bans and has lodged an official complaint with the European Commission.

The complaint centres on the European Union requirement that member nations permit the free movement of goods and services between member nations. On January 1 the 16 German states implemented the ban, which forbids online gambling with the exception of horse racing.

"The European Gaming and Betting Association (EGBA) calls on the European Commission to take swift action against the German Interstate Treaty on gaming," the lobby group said in a statement.

EGBA asserts that the ban "...is in direct contravention of European Union law."

"The German Interstate Treaty is incompatible with EU law, and its adoption has left us with no other choice but to make a formal complaint to the European Commission," said EGBA secretary general Sigrid Ligne. "We urge the Commission now to fast track our complaint and launch infringement proceedings against Germany," she said.

Charlie McCreevy, the EU Internal Market Commissioner responsible for compliance issues, has been diligent in pursuing member states that do not adhere to the principles of the EU Treaty allowing free movement of goods and services, and has said that he is prepared to take non-compliant nations before the European Court of Justice if necessary.

McCreevy has already launched legal action against Germany over the then proposed treaty last year - before it came into force.

"The Commission does not believe this piece of legislation is in line with Community law," his spokesman Oliver Drewes said. "We now have to decide in the near future if we take this legal action to the next step."

Reuters news service reports that European Commission officials are due to decide in coming days whether to push ahead with legal actions in the gambling sector against several EU states. If Brussels were to push ahead against Germany, it would be in the form of a final warning before the country is taken to the European Court of Justice, which has powers to fine and force the country to change its laws.

EGBA is an association of major European gaming and betting operators, including Bet-at-home.com, bwin, Digibet, Carmen Media Group, Expekt, Interwetten, PartyGaming and Unibet.

The lobby group said the Germany treaty makes the granting of licenses "completely discretionary," places an "unjustified and inconsistent prohibition of online gaming and betting," and "strict advertising and sponsoring prohibitions."

 

[jetset]

WAY OPEN FOR BWIN FOLLOWING GERMAN COURT DECISION

Austrian public company wins another round of German litigation

The way appears to be open for a resumption of online gambling activities in the German state of Baden-Wuerttemberg by Vienna listed gambling group Bwin, following a favourable judicial ruling this week, reports the Stuttgarter Nachrichten publication.

The Karlsruhe court ruled that Bwin Interactive Entertainment AG is allowed to accept wagers from customers in the German state, overturning a previous judgment forcing the company to stop accepting wagers. The latest ruling instructs that the previous order is not to be executed as such a regionally limited ban is technically not enforceable.

The fight is likely to continue, however as a spokesman told reporters that Baden-Wuerttemberg will appeal the court decision at the administrative court in Mannheim, Germany.

Bwin has around 2 million customers in Germany, and several hundred thousand of them are in Baden-Wuerttemberg, the newspaper revealed. The company has won a series of legal clashes with German authorities.

Earlier this week the European Gaming and Betting Association laid a formal complaint with the European Commission against an accord banning online gambling in the 16 states that make up modern Germany. EGBA represents most of the large European betting groups and is determined to ensure that European Union principles are respected.

Secretary general Sigrid Ligne told the BBC this week: "The official [German] claim is consumer protection and we feel that claim is unjustified."

"Why focus on internet gambling when traditional land-based offline gambling is being promoted in Germany?"

Ligne added: "We urge the Commission now to fast track our complaint and launch infringement proceedings against Germany."

The European Commission appears to support the view that the German legislation is incompatible with EU law, and has already warned the Germans and some other EU nations about prohibiting the free passage of goods and services.

The Commission insists it is not preventing any member state from its obligation to protect the public. Spokesman Oliver Drewes said the problem was that Germany, in common with certain other countries, is trying to restrict certain types of gambling while leaving others, particularly state lotteries, alone.

"You have to have the same rules for everybody and not a situation where different operators are treated in a different way," he said, adding that 10 EU member states were currently the subject of legal action on gambling, including Denmark, Sweden, Finland and Hungary.

"Prohibition is not and has never been a solution, be it in our sector or other sectors," EGBA chairman Norbert Teufelberger commented. "It is not a responsible approach and cannot be a substitute to an efficient gaming policy. Focusing on online gaming does not make sense when most recent peer-reviewed studies show that although online and offline gaming [have] different target audience, players' behaviour is similar whether online or offline."

He added that in a properly regulated environment, online gaming allows for higher transparency and technical and financial traceability.