Possible issue with BLR Tech casinos craps software

[Eliot Jacobson]

There has been several cases of rigged software in the past. But I especially remember one case that seems similar to this one. It was covered by WoO as well and is probably 8 or more years ago. The game in question was blackjack and after various statistically analysis it was concluded that data was fitting perfectly to the having the dealer dealing a second card in case he busted. And than accepting the fate of the second card no matter what. When cheating this way, there is no way the player can exploit it of course.

The method of cheating above is readily detectible by simple audits of the distribution of dealer cards. Any audit will detect this.

There is another method of cheating in online blackjack that doesn't require modifying the code in a clever way or multiple RNG calls, and is tougher to detect by an audit. Namely, whatever hand the dealer is dealt, flip the cards around so that the high card is the card the player sees. Then the player will hit a lot more often, busting, in situations when he might ordinarily stand by seeing a 2-6 for the dealer. The cards the player and dealer receive will not be modified from those originally dealt making it look statistically normal to the casual auditor. The dealer's cards are just flipped sometimes. You don't need to do this very often and it will have a significant effect. The statistical test that can detect this is a chi-squared test on the distribution of dealer up-cards. This is a test I routinely perform when I do my audits, but I am not sure about other auditors.

This method of cheating (flipping the cards) is in addition to the method Michael Shackleford identified above, as well as cheating by dealing to the player from a short-deck. None of these three methods require messing with the RNG or clever coding. However, no method of cheating the player will be statistically undetectable. Some are harder to identify than others, but they all leave their own statistical fingerprint.

[4 of a kind]

I find this thread confirming in house cheating even more interesting that it went completely ignored (or rather not one posted opinion) from all the members that insisted for years that there could never be a logical reason for an operator to cheat; or would possibly run the risk of killing the goose that’s laying golden eggs. Why are there no Advocates and Affiliates who are getting fat from online gaming found expressing any opinions in this thread or else where? Bryan at least rogued the software provider, but are others even willing to warn players? Where are the likes of Dogboy and others that are always trying to convince everyone else that their just unlucky?

Throughout this thread it’s confirmed from software engineers that the software could be altered by installing hard coded rogue logic built into it, RNG’s could be installed improper resulting in not performing randomly, outcomes being weighted one way or the other, BJ games able to flip down cards and draw seconds if needed. This is only what was reveled in this thread.

Like Eliot mentioned that an auditor could detect some of these cheating methods if they even know to look for them in the first place.

Converting games that require human interaction to virtual interaction could only respond to what was programmed into it.

Another thing I find interesting is when visiting and reading threads at the Wizard of Odds / Vegas, how endlessly the mathematicians and computer engineers trash online gaming, yet, the site promotes only one online casino which is Bodog. Just the fact that Bodog is willing to take illegal money transactions from the USA speaks volumes in itself about the promoter. If this same issue was casting doubts upon RTG software, one would have to wonder if M.S. (WOO) would have pursed the issue with the same vigor.

Even if a player recorded 5 million hands of BJ or Video Poker and fell 5% below expected RTP it would still be written off as just bad luck and expected variance without knowing every single bet made against the same game during that same time. Don’t think all computer software engineers are as stupid as BLR. The bigger online software providers are smart enough to provide quicker profits for the owners while completely avoiding issues like this one simply because they are smart enough and can with no regulation or enforcement.

Regardless, this thread should cast enough doubt for any online table player to run for the hills and bury their money where no online casino could find it until confirmed regulation and enforcement make an appearance.

One could only wonder why such a huge multi-billion industry can go on operating un-regulated like this for well over a decade.

[GrandMaster]

Even if a player recorded 5 million hands of BJ or Video Poker and fell 5% below expected RTP it would still be written off as just bad luck and expected variance without knowing every single bet made against the same game during that same time. Don’t think all computer software engineers are as stupid as BLR. The bigger online software providers are smart enough to provide quicker profits for the owners while completely avoiding issues like this one simply because they are smart enough and can with no regulation or enforcement.

5% would definitely be noticeable in 10000 hands. See http://wizardofodds.com/blacklist for some example how the analysis is done.

If a casino cheats systematically, it cannot be hidden, since the payout will be lower than expected. The number of games needed to collect sufficient level of evidence depends on the level of cheating, but it can be done. There will also be other evidence, such as the distribution of cards will deviate from the expected.

[silcnlayc]

I find this thread confirming in house cheating even more interesting that it went completely ignored (or rather not one posted opinion) from all the members that insisted for years that there could never be a logical reason for an operator to cheat; or would possibly run the risk of killing the goose that’s laying golden eggs. Why are there no Advocates and Affiliates who are getting fat from online gaming found expressing any opinions in this thread or else where? Bryan at least rogued the software provider, but are others even willing to warn players? Where are the likes of Dogboy and others that are always trying to convince everyone else that their just unlucky?

I guess the reason why I stopped trying to give my experiences of the changes happening is because it seemed like a useless proposition against the said issues you stated....I was tired of being asked to "prove" things that I knew were true but could not physically prove. I got tired of defending myself against the same people you are asking where they are at, now, that the proof is being shown that things can and ARE being manipulated, as I stated they were happening behind the scenes (really got beat up for that) ...I was accused of chasing off dogboy in another thread here : http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...backend-5.html by my questions and my experiences that did not match his accounting of games which I challenged and he did end up disappearing for quite a long time after that....so...there you go..

Many will still defend and state "all is well" even though things haven't been for a few years now..I will take personal experience over anothers desire to imagine all is fair and right with the casinos (for the USA promoters). To me, experiencing the changes speaks more volumes than the demand for the illusive "proof" unlike here where you have physical proof that you can sink your teeth into.

I just played at my last RTG I have installed and finally requested it closed. Why? I am one to be fair and give others a fair shake in showing me that things are not as bad as I feel they are. well...this last RTG has failed also, after months of playing. (I always ask myself, could I be wrong?) hence the coninuous playing to the end for fairness....

Regardless, this thread should cast enough doubt for any online table player to run for the hills and bury their money where no online casino could find it until confirmed regulation and enforcement make an appearance.

I agree . So I now have only fun casinos loaded. USA players really need to sit back and wait till the tide turns and casinos are made to be held accountable. The risk is too much and the money drain is unending as proven to me once again today.

[Nifty29]

I guess the reason why I stopped trying to give my experiences of the changes happening is because it seemed like a useless proposition against the said issues you stated....I was tired of being asked to "prove" things that I knew were true but could not physically prove. I got tired of defending myself against the same people you are asking where they are at, now, that the proof is being shown that things can and ARE being manipulated, as I stated they were happening behind the scenes (really got beat up for that) ...I was accused of chasing off dogboy in another thread here : http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...backend-5.html by my questions and my experiences that did not match his accounting of games which I challenged and he did end up disappearing for quite a long time after that....so...there you go..

Many will still defend and state "all is well" even though things haven't been for a few years now..I will take personal experience over anothers desire to imagine all is fair and right with the casinos (for the USA promoters). To me, experiencing the changes speaks more volumes than the demand for the illusive "proof" unlike here where you have physical proof that you can sink your teeth into.

I just played at my last RTG I have installed and finally

requested it closed. Why? I am one to be fair and give others a fair shake in showing me that things are not as bad as I feel they are. well...this last RTG has failed also, after months of playing. (I always ask myself, could I be wrong?) hence the coninuous playing to the end for fairness....

I agree . So I now have only fun casinos loaded. USA players really need to sit back and wait till the tide turns and casinos are made to be held accountable. The risk is too much and the money drain is unending as proven to me once again today.

Sorry, but the fact you have still been playing shows that you don't even believe your own conspiracies. You have held the "all casinos cheat/lower payouts secretly" POV for years and during that time you still played.....it just confirms in my mind that the "avid conspiracy theorists" such as yourself are actually just using such theories as a crutch to lean on when you lose. You say "RTG have definitely lowered their payouts over the past few years".....so where is your spreadsheet showing your deposits, bets, bonuses and withdrawals? You cannot make accusations of cheating/dishonesty without evidence - its not right and not fair. I'm.certain if someone posted here that "silcnlayc is a tax cheat" with no evidence besides "oh its just a feeling I get" you would be going ballistic and demanding evidence or an apology. How does this not apply to everyone else? You think its OK to accuse operators of cheating without a scrap of proof.

I tell you now, if you presented your stats from the past few years showing just how much worse things have become, I would seriously consider that you were on to something and would support you in your cause. I detest cheating and dishonesty, but I also believe that if one is going to make serious accusations, one must be prepared to offer hard evidence, or be prepared to have their opinions seriously questioned and, quite possibly, be discounted as just another gambler blaming the casinos for their losses.

I'll give 4OAK one thing.....he might push his agenda in just about every post, but at least he stopped playing (as far as we know) when he thought something wasn't right. He has the courage of his convictions. No hard evidence, so I don't give his views much credibility for that reason, but at least I know he really believes what he believes. Of course, the problem is that not playing for years puts one out of the loop so to speak, so things may well be different now and it may well just have been a bad streak for him.

A few wise heads have stated here that cheating software becomes pretty obvious fairly quickly, and will always be caught by rigorous testing regimes. AFAIK nobody has produced testing of RTG, MG, Playtech that suggests anything untoward is going on at all. I would bet London to a brick that, if these operators were taking us all for a ride, WoO and others would have called them out long ago.

The reason dogboy hardly posts now is that the same members were constantly trying to discredit him as being "in on the conspiracy" and somehow sent here by RTG to hoodwink all of us in to believing everything is fair. Members were questioning his integrity and even his knowledge (even though he is involved in the testing etc of the game). It didnt matter what he tried to say, it would always be turned back on him with "yes well you would say that" and "i'd expect that from a company man". The conspiracy theorists don't want to hear facts that don't fit, so they do everything possible to demean the person presenting them.

I wouldn't hang around under those conditions either.

[4 of a kind]

5% would definitely be noticeable in 10000 hands. See http://wizardofodds.com/blacklist for some example how the analysis is done.

If a casino cheats systematically, it cannot be hidden, since the payout will be lower than expected. The number of games needed to collect sufficient level of evidence depends on the level of cheating, but it can be done. There will also be other evidence, such as the distribution of cards will deviate from the expected.

BLR has been around since 1998, how long do you think they were operating their craps game with a 46% HA (house advantage) before getting caught? Who has been auditing their software all this time? That answer is below off of the 5 Dimes web site:


Check out some examples of the payout difference between traditional casino games and the games found at our Bonus Casino. To ensure the fairness of all games, the 5Dimes Bonus Casino has been audited by two separate third party companies. The 5Dimes Bonus Casino has received the Certified Fair Gambling’s RTP Certification. Below are the payout percentages that were obtained from the Certified Fair Gambling’s fairness audit that was conducted on each of the Bonus Casino games.
Certified Fair Gambling

Blackjack: 98.802%
Table Games: 98.776%
Slots: 96.658%
Video Poker: 98.853%
Other: 96.968%
All Games: 98.729%

The Bonus Casino has also been audited by another third party to ensure statistical fairness. To get an even greater understanding, read an independent audit of our Bonus Casino software.

[silcnlayc]

Sorry, but the fact you have still been playing shows that you don't even believe your own conspiracies. You have held the "all casinos cheat/lower payouts secretly" POV for years and during that time you still played.....it just confirms in my mind that the "avid conspiracy theorists" such as yourself are actually just using such theories as a crutch to lean on when you lose. You say "RTG have definitely lowered their payouts over the past few years".....so where is your spreadsheet showing your deposits, bets, bonuses and withdrawals? You cannot make accusations of cheating/dishonesty without evidence - its not right and not fair. I'm.certain if someone posted here that "silcnlayc is a tax cheat" with no evidence besides "oh its just a feeling I get" you would be going ballistic and demanding evidence or an apology. How does this not apply to everyone else? You think its OK to accuse operators of cheating without a scrap of proof.

I tell you now, if you presented your stats from the past few years showing just how much worse things have become, I would seriously consider that you were on to something and would support you in your cause. I detest cheating and dishonesty, but I also believe that if one is going to make serious accusations, one must be prepared to offer hard evidence, or be prepared to have their opinions seriously questioned and, quite possibly, be discounted as just another gambler blaming the casinos for their losses.

I'll give 4OAK one thing.....he might push his agenda in just about every post, but at least he stopped playing (as far as we know) when he thought something wasn't right. He has the courage of his convictions. No hard evidence, so I don't give his views much credibility for that reason, but at least I know he really believes what he believes. Of course, the problem is that not playing for years puts one out of the loop so to speak, so things may well be different now and it may well just have been a bad streak for him.

A few wise heads have stated here that cheating software becomes pretty obvious fairly quickly, and will always be caught by rigorous testing regimes. AFAIK nobody has produced testing of RTG, MG, Playtech that suggests anything untoward is going on at all. I would bet London to a brick that, if these operators were taking us all for a ride, WoO and others would have called them out long ago.

The reason dogboy hardly posts now is that the same members were constantly trying to discredit him as being "in on the conspiracy" and somehow sent here by RTG to hoodwink all of us in to believing everything is fair. Members were questioning his integrity and even his knowledge (even though he is involved in the testing etc of the game). It didnt matter what he tried to say, it would always be turned back on him with "yes well you would say that" and "i'd expect that from a company man". The conspiracy theorists don't want to hear facts that don't fit, so they do everything possible to demean the person presenting them.

I wouldn't hang around under those conditions either.

Nifty, please take a breath...and just breaaath~~~~~ The word conspiracy is always the word for you..against anyone that does not agree with you or your ideals.....that is ok..you can own it....I myself, take experiences over "blind faith" any day so if you like to call it a conspirators thoughts...so be it...you own the word...not my thoughts...or experiences...have a nice nite...and just breath~~~~~

.

[4 of a kind]

A few wise heads have stated here that cheating software becomes pretty obvious fairly quickly, and will always be caught by rigorous testing regimes.

Many of the technicians and mathematicians over at the Wizard of Oz, also confirm that finding a consistent negative discrepancy of 3 to 5 percentages would not be enough grounds to declare foul play. Pigs like BLR end up getting slaughtered. Yet, you would have to agree that it would be simple for software providers to play around with a percentage point or two or three or four, and would go undetected, but would equate to millions if not billions considering the volume over time into the casinos and software coffers.

I believe the software providers since they don't have to answer to regulators would have no problem playing these percentage games with nothing more then a simple download. They probably don't even tell the owners who purchase their software. The more profits they provide for owners the better their profit records become when showcasing their software to potential new owners. Many providers also lease their software out with an agreed upon revenue share.

Without regulation and enforcement no one could declare the games are 100% fair, and without proof no one could declare the games are gaffed.

Bottom line if you think you're not getting a 100% fair game, go with your instincts. I gave it two years of absurd results and compulsive loses trying to recover my expected RTP with video poker, before realizing my initial instinct two years earlier was correct. This was after 8 happy years of playing online with no complaints about anything what so ever.

I'm also convinced that slot players see things differently. If a slot player hits a Jackpot and was playing on a machine with an 87% RTP, try convincing this player that the machines are set lower then advertised. Experienced table players see things a completely different way when compared to the views of slot players.

[4 of a kind]

Interesting post over at WOV, written by a poster named FleaStiff in relation to this discussion:

http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambl...21/#post105573

[Nifty29]

Nifty, please take a breath...and just breaaath~~~~~ The word conspiracy is always the word for you..against anyone that does not agree with you or your ideals.....that is ok..you can own it....I myself, take experiences over "blind faith" any day so if you like to call it a conspirators thoughts...so be it...you own the word...not my thoughts...or experiences...have a nice nite...and just breath~~~~~

.

Nice deflection.

Let's just forget the word "conspiracy" and replace it with a word/words of your own choice (make sure you own them though).

Now you can address the points I made without worrying about semantics. If you don't have an answer for my arguments, that's totally cool. I would respect you more if you just said that rather than pick out one word and give me respiratory instructions.