Betsson seized my deposit (1100 euro)

[Repro]

I wonder if this is only about the use of a bot...

The OP says there is a 7 page document with the COMPLETE story, so i think there is more to it.

IMO if it's only about the bot and there were no other things - like a bonus - involved, the OP should just get his deposits back. In the long term there is no way a bot can let you make a profit at blackjack, so technically there's no real disadvantage for Betsson here. Sure they can play it by the rules (T&C), but there is no actual harm done.

Not very smart thing to do though when you know you can be in big trouble

[Nifty29]

I'm not talking about whether its right or wrong, or legal or illegal, or fraud etc.

I'm saying that BETSSON considers the use of bots to be a form of unacceptable play, and states CLEARLY in their terms that all funds will be confiscated. If the OP had bothered to check the terms he would have his money. He also KNEW it was dodgy to use the bot. It is irrelevant whether bots provide an advantage or not.....they simply just are not allowed.

We can argue about whether its illegal under contract law in Botswana or sueing in the UK and pretend we're all lawyers, but at the end of the day the terms of service were broken and the player AGREED that the casino would be the final arbiter in regards to that breach.

If you don't want to have your deposit confiscated in certain situations then DON'T play at casinos where this is stipulated. Then again, the vast majority of us will never be in that situation because we play the games within the rules and don't try to find any way possible to gain an advantage.

[BBKPoker]

I don't really buy that the allegation of "fraud" is necessarily applicable to using bots, regardless of the T&Cs. If it was strictly a botting matter, I think that a fair ruling would be that if you had losses they would stand, balance refunded to your deposit method, and if you had winnings/bonuses that they would removed, and you would be refunded to your original deposit method.

On the other hand, there's more to the issues than just using bots. Depositing a large chunk of money with one deposit method to filter it to another deposit method which you've admitted in your post is arguably money laundering and that IS something for which deposits can be confiscated without return if the casino can make a reasonable argument that that is what you are participating in doing.

[vinylweatherman]

This is from their T&C:

11. Breaches, penalties and termination

11.1.
If You breach any provision of these T&C or BETSSON has a reasonable ground to suspect that You have breached them, BETSSON reserves the right not to open, suspend, close Your Member Account, withhold any money in your account (including the deposit) and apply such funds on account of any damages due by You.

THIS is the justification for confiscating a deposit, it is a provision ONLY to allow the operator to recover any damages caused by the breach, it is NOT a free pass to take EVERYTHING that happens to be there.

If it were, then PLAYERS would also be within their rights to confiscate ALL overpayments made by casinos as "damages", with them also being "final arbiters" as to the amount due. At present, casinos have to ask players to return the money, and in general players will do this, rather than take advantage. The trust works both ways, and if casinos start taking this kind of advantage of every opportunity presented to them to unilaterally confiscate money on account, just because they can, then PLAYERS are going to start playing "hardball" back, and casinos will find it MUCH harder to get a fair deal from PLAYERS.

Take the US situation, where EVERY amount deposited could be clawed back, but it does NOT happen because players WANT the casinos to carry on taking their business, and know that telling their banks these were illegal gambling transactions would not JUST get them their money back, but would ensure NO casino would take their business ever again, and would hasten the DoJ's success in shutting down the options.

Confiscating DEPOSITS is a SURE way of inviting a chargeback, since this IS something a bank would accept as a valid reason for recovering the "monies paid for the good or service". Casinos generally confiscate WINNINGS, because it is only a DEPOSIT that could ever be charged back, and ONLY where it has not already been returned to the player.
As an addition:


11.3.
You acknowledge that BETSSON shall be the final decision-maker of whether You have violated Betsson’s rules, terms or conditions in a manner that results in BETSSON’s suspension or permanent barring from participation in our site.

I don't really buy that the allegation of "fraud" is necessarily applicable to using bots, regardless of the T&Cs. If it was strictly a botting matter, I think that a fair ruling would be that if you had losses they would stand, balance refunded to your deposit method, and if you had winnings/bonuses that they would removed, and you would be refunded to your original deposit method.

On the other hand, there's more to the issues than just using bots. Depositing a large chunk of money with one deposit method to filter it to another deposit method which you've admitted in your post is arguably money laundering and that IS something for which deposits can be confiscated without return if the casino can make a reasonable argument that that is what you are participating in doing.

This is the REAL problem, forget bots, this DOES cost the casino money, and they are being duped into paying the money movement fees for a COMPETITOR who would benefit from the eventual deposit from Neteller. The really odd thing is that Betsson has NOT considered THIS as a violation of the terms, and took some while to come up with the bot excuse. It looks like it isn't only the PLAYER that is being deceptive here, Betsson are clearly using the bot as an EXCUSE, rather than the REASON, for the actions they have taken.

It looks like they had already decided the player was guilty of something, but had no evidence, so started stalling with bullshit issues whilst they dug around for an excuse not to pay. Unfortunately, the player had given them one, and they found it - thus they were able to make the bot accusation, and it is TRUE (for a change), so they have a relatively minor breach of the terms, far MORE minor a breach than the MOTIVE, which was to fund Neteller for free, leaving Betsson to pick up the bill.

Given that this is a player of some FOUR YEARS, they seem to have gone completely overboard in the action they have taken over something relatively minor. They actually MADE €50 from the player using a bot, and this is PROOF that there is NO "cheating" possible when using a bot against the house, and without a bonus. Had this been an MGS casino, there wouldn't even BE an issue, just set up autoplay to play some Blackjack, withdraw, and unless the casino took exeption to the funding Neteller aspect, there wouldn't be a problem. Even if there WAS, it would only result in the transaction charges being recovered.

Players have to wonder what OTHER minor transgressions Betsson will punish by confiscating the DEPOSITS, because MANY players make the occasional minor mistake, but these are of no consequence, and the casino doesn't make a fuss.

Confisaction of a deposit is the MAXIMUM penalty a casino can EVER apply, and should ONLY be used in EXCEPTIONAL circumstances. It is rare even for outright FRAUD to result in confiscation of a deposit, let alone "irregular play", which is all this is.

[Mr_Zoidberg]

Sorry for my late reply. I had no internet this weekend.

Thanks for all your help and replies. Espacially vinylweatherman, I think you are right in this matter.

My deposit minus fees minus investigation costs back, seems reasonable (more reasonable than nothing) to me.

What do you think is the best to resolve this issue? Pitch a Bitch? Mail Betsson again?

[Nifty29]

Sorry for my late reply. I had no internet this weekend.

Thanks for all your help and replies. Espacially vinylweatherman, I think you are right in this matter.

My deposit minus fees minus investigation costs back, seems reasonable (more reasonable than nothing) to me.

What do you think is the best to resolve this issue? Pitch a Bitch? Mail Betsson again?

1. Contact betsson rep via pm ( see I-gaming forum reps link above)

2. PAB if unsuccessful.

I think you're wasting your time......but since it is your time and not mine, then go ahead.

[rainmaker]

1. Contact betsson rep via pm ( see I-gaming forum reps link above)

2. PAB if unsuccessful.

I think you're wasting your time......but since it is your time and not mine, then go ahead.

Agree. PAB is unnecessary.

I did not find a rep from Betsson, anybody knows where he/she is hiding ?

[KasinoKing]

1. Contact betsson rep via pm ( see I-gaming forum reps link above)

2. PAB if unsuccessful.

I think you're wasting your time......but since it is your time and not mine, then go ahead.

I have to totally agree.
The OP admitted, not only using a Bot (against their T&Cs), but also trying to "launder" money through Betsson - (presumably against their T&Cs) and so the casino has the right to invoke the punishment which is clearly stated in their terms.
Personally I don't think he has a leg to stand on.

KK

[Casinomeister]

Actually, to nip this in the bud - this complaint isn't going anywhere. The OP has broken the terms and conditions - obviously. He was fully aware of them and he knew by using a bot the casino had the right to confiscate his winnings and deposits.

I can ask the casino to look into the matter of the reasons why the deposit was confiscated, but my guess is to recoup the expenses of dealing with a player who has seven pages of "the full story".

I'll check on this, but Max won't be dealing with a PAB. I hope you understand where I'm coming from

[vinylweatherman]

Actually, to nip this in the bud - this complaint isn't going anywhere. The OP has broken the terms and conditions - obviously. He was fully aware of them and he knew by using a bot the casino had the right to confiscate his winnings and deposits.

I can ask the casino to look into the matter of the reasons why the deposit was confiscated, but my guess is to recoup the expenses of dealing with a player who has seven pages of "the full story".

I'll check on this, but Max won't be dealing with a PAB. I hope you understand where I'm coming from

It may be that the deposit IS a fair sum to charge for the costs of remedying the breach, as allowed for in the terms.

Whilst the terms allow confiscation of the deposit, it is qualified by stating that this is ONLY done where it is necessary to recover the costs down to a breach.

One aspect is that not only did the OP foolishly use a bot, he "just happened to have one lying around" on his PC, making it the "lazy option".

This suggests that the OP may be a "habitual bot user", and has often used this ruse to fund Neteller via Betsson, and it is not JUST this incident that is being "punished", but that after some past instances, the casinos finally said "enough is enough", and acted pretty firmly.

Many casinos have a similar term, but it is VERY RARE for a DEPOSIT to be confiscated, so there must be something pretty exceptional about this case, as opposed to the usual "used a bot once because I was lazy" scenario.

Confiscating deposits without a VERY good reason is also bad PR for any casino, since it is "scary" enough that some casinos will confiscate winnings for "unclear" reasons, and a casino that readily confiscates deposits for relatively minor breaches is going to scare away players.

Given that this was bot play WITHOUT a bonus, this is a very MINOR breach, yet it is the reason given for confiscating the deposit. I can't see how they can justify confiscating €1100 for using a bot without a bonus, losing €50 in the process, and withdrawing the rest. Whilst the "laundering" aspect might be the real reason, the fact is they did NOT say this was so, they said the €1050 is the "fine" for using the bot, which is the proverbial "sledgehammer to crack a nut".