Heroes Casino - Blackjack issues, slow-pay

[NASHVEGAS]

Going over WB's PAB, he's being accused of "advantage Play".

Unfortunately many operators confuse "card counting" or advantage play as cheating. I've heard the tiresome mantra "If the player was caught card counting in Vegas, he'd be thrown out and his winnings confiscated." Well this may be true in a bad Hollywood film (and I think they did this in Rainman), but advantage play is legal.

Unless of course a device is used:
http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-4...l#NRS465Sec070

Advantage play has been upheld by the Nevada State Supreme court as to being "not cheating" - that was a few years ago. In fact, if you are a known card counter, I don't believe that the Las Vegas casinos can keep you out legally. It's a public place and card counting does not break any laws.

Just a preemptive FYI

Maybe you are confusing A.C. with Nevada where the "trespass law" still exists afaik but I will confirm asap....Bob N. recently has challenged the trespass law without sucess last I heard. Will post an excerpt from BJI.......essentially a Nevada casino can ask you to leave because they do not like the color of your hat, (they prefer to fabricate a false accusation though like I beat up the female pit boss) , but they can not cuff and/or backroom you LEGALLY, they still do though, www.thebeargrowls.com.....BRB

[NASHVEGAS]

An excerpt of Joe Pane's July 2008 interview with LV attorney Bob Nersesian in BJI. There was also a podcast on Pane's Holdem Radio show but I can not get it to work on my end.

What is the difference between being backed-off and being trespassed?

Being told to leave and never come back is a trespass. Anything less is being backed off.

If you are leaving the casino and the security guards are reading you the trespass act, but you neither respond to any of their question or sign any document in regards to this trespass reading, are you legally trespassed off the property, or must you have signed the form to acknowledge their intentions.

You’re legally trespassed if there is such a thing. I am currently challenging the trespass law in reference to APs. Ken Uston did this year’s ago in Atlantic City. Although a local federal court has ruled on the issue, and the Atlantic City case was not adopted, the Nevada Supreme Court has never answered the question of whether a casino can trespass a non-disruptive guest and bar them from playing legally.

The argument, briefly, is that a Nevada statute requires that casinos remain open to the general public, and that access to gaming remains open to the general public. The statute contains an exception providing that casinos can exclude patrons for any common law reason. The Nevada trespass statute is a statutory reason, not a common law reason, and therefore would be trumped by the statute mandating access. The question is then whether at common law a place of public amusement could exclude any one for any reason, or whether there is a conditionally revocable license requiring cause. New Jersey found the conditionally revocable license. Other states are split, and as mentioned, Nevada has never answered the question.

If you are 86th from a casino and 6 months later that same casino is sold to another individual or corporation are you still not allowed back on property?

It depends. If the same corporation owns the casino and only the stock was transferred to the new owner, then no. This is also contingent on the issue in the preceding question.

I have been told that if you are just verbally read the trespass act and do not sign off on it that it is only valid for 6 months. Is this true, or just another advantage player false rumor?

Just an AP false rumor.

If you are trespassed, what should you do?

Don’t go back. Or, pay me $20,000.00 to bring the challenge talked about a moment ago.

[Casinomeister]

Maybe you are confusing A.C. with Nevada where the "trespass law" still exists afaik but I will confirm asap....Bob N. recently has challenged the trespass law without sucess last I heard. Will post an excerpt from BJI.......essentially a Nevada casino can ask you to leave because they do not like the color of your hat, (they prefer to fabricate a false accusation though like I beat up the female pit boss) , but they can not cuff and/or backroom you LEGALLY, they still do though, www.thebeargrowls.com.....BRB

Ah, you're right. It's Atlantic City that is considered "public" property.

By the way, here's an article that refers to a number of pertinent documents.
http://www.thelegality.com/archives/61

[same_old]

As readers will no doubt gather from B's post Westland has filed his PAB. It was submitted to Heroes the same day.

Now we may be getting somewhere, ok everyone strap in and let's see where the ride takes us.

[NASHVEGAS]

Maybe you are confusing A.C. with Nevada where the "trespass law" still exists afaik but I will confirm asap....Bob N. recently has challenged the trespass law without sucess last I heard. Will post an excerpt from BJI.......essentially a Nevada casino can ask you to leave because they do not like the color of your hat, (they prefer to fabricate a false accusation though like I beat up the female pit boss) , but they can not cuff and/or backroom you LEGALLY, they still do though,www.thebeargrowls.com.....BRB

From CM's link:

"In fact, Las Vegas lawyers claim that casinos have been using intimidation and excessive force more frequently, which has led to other settlements and reversals of convictions for charges cooked up by casino personnel. A clear message is being sent by the courts that the right to exclude does not allow abuse, which is a violation of an individual’s rights."

Moral: stop beating those female pit bosses up,LOL!!

SIDENOTE:When lawyer's claimed, which they did before the surveillance tapes finally could be supoenaed pursuant to an early 2000's ruling by the Nevada Supreme Court iirc, I am not sure a casino patron ever won a case as a Plaintiff. Since the above mentioned NSC ruling, I am not aware of any casino patron having lost a casino patron abuse case as a Plaintiff. Of course, most cases are settled and never made public. Then there is Sheldon.

[Casinomeister]

Let's try not to derail the thread. Thanks. This topic is worthy of its own

[GrandMaster]

Going over WB's PAB, he's being accused of "advantage Play".

Unfortunately many operators confuse "card counting" or advantage play as cheating. I've heard the tiresome mantra "If the player was caught card counting in Vegas, he'd be thrown out and his winnings confiscated." Well this may be true in a bad Hollywood film (and I think they did this in Rainman), but advantage play is legal.

Unless of course a device is used:
http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-4...l#NRS465Sec070

Advantage play has been upheld by the Nevada State Supreme court as to being "not cheating" - that was a few years ago. In fact, if you are a known card counter, I don't believe that the Las Vegas casinos can keep you out legally. It's a public place and card counting does not break any laws.

Just a preemptive FYI

Advantage play is only possible if either
the deck is not shuffled before each hand (card counting), or
the rules are very generous (basic strategy), or
you play with bonuses (bonus hunting), or
the software is not fair and has an exploitable flaw.

I have not been able to find the rules of blackjack on heroescasino.com, but it is very rare to find blackjack with a possible player advantage online. Furthermore, exploiting such an advantage would only give the player a slight edge over the casino, which would not result in the quick profit achieved by WB. Assuming that the software is fair, the deck is shuffled before every hand and the rules are not too generous, there is simply no advantage play, all the optimal strategy can achieve is the smallest possible disadvantage. From what I read elsewhere, WB did not take a bonus, he was using a betting system, and he was merely lucky. Assuming the rules of blackjack are like at most online casinos, the casino's claim of "advantage play" means that the software is not fair.

[Jasminebed]

"Advantage play" only allows a player to MINIMIZE the advantage the casino has. If it is anything else, it is because the casino failed to to its homework before offering a bonus on certain terms.

OP got lucky. VERY lucky. No physic bots, no card counter (impossible for a shuffled after every hand deck(s)).

Time to pay up.

But, if they feel OP is not a profitable customer, close his account AFTER paying him his winnings. If they were a smart casino, they would treat him like gold until he lost all or most of it back.

[maxd]

FWIW, we've heard back from the casino and there appear to be some seriously extenuating circumstances involved here. Everyone is going to have to be a little patient while we dig into this.

[RobWin]

FWIW, we've heard back from the casino and there appear to be some seriously extenuating circumstances involved here. Everyone is going to have to be a little patient while we dig into this.

"seriously extenuating", that does not sound good,,,can you at least give us a hint Max as to what context you are using the word "extenuating" Thanks