Account blocked by Grand Virtual casino - Help needed

[jas2587]

I dont understand what they meant by this

"My IP address is static and has never been used before I had it."

think it was PAJ that said it


Cindy

[BBKPoker]

Originally Posted by Casinomeister

Good post bbk - thanks for the DVDs

By the way, the Grand Virtual group has never accepted US bets - I'm just making sure you're not confusing them with another group of casinos.

I'm almost certain they took bets from US customers 1 1/2- 2 1/2 years ago. However, I may have played them when I was working/living in Edinburgh and remembering them from there. Entirely possible, but I'm 100% sure I'm not confused regarding the group.

[BBKPoker]

Originally Posted by Casinomeister

Well I know from the git-go, the Grand Virtual properties did not accept US bets. And when they were listed on this site years ago.

Check out their casino website screen shots from the Wayback machine:

Casino Treasure 1999
http://web.archive.org/web/199901250...otreasure.com/

Casino Fantasy
http://web.archive.org/web/199805041...nofantasy.com/

Imperial Casino
http://web.archive.org/web/200003020...ialcasino.com/

all state "void in US" - perhaps they temporarily opened their doors, but shut them again. I could find out for sure but this is beside the point.

I've been in touch with them and they explained in detail what had happened. It seems the weekend crew had some miscommunications - but it is sorted out. Good thing. I'm tiring of the fraud crap. We've had another Casinomeister member (senior member) caught out as a fraudster today.

The bottom line is - if you try to pull a fast one, you will get caught. Fraudulant accounts are usually pretty easy to detect.

Good update. Did they address their policy of not refunding deposits?

[vinylweatherman]

Originally Posted by Casinomeister

Well I know from the git-go, the Grand Virtual properties did not accept US bets. And when they were listed on this site years ago.

Check out their casino website screen shots from the Wayback machine:

Casino Treasure 1999
http://web.archive.org/web/199901250...otreasure.com/

Casino Fantasy
http://web.archive.org/web/199805041...nofantasy.com/

Imperial Casino
http://web.archive.org/web/200003020...ialcasino.com/

all state "void in US" - perhaps they temporarily opened their doors, but shut them again. I could find out for sure but this is beside the point.

I've been in touch with them and they explained in detail what had happened. It seems the weekend crew had some miscommunications - but it is sorted out. Good thing. I'm tiring of the fraud crap. We've had another Casinomeister member (senior member) caught out as a fraudster today.

The bottom line is - if you try to pull a fast one, you will get caught. Fraudulant accounts are usually pretty easy to detect.

This is the whole point, but before they discovered the issue to be with the weekend crew, they tried, convicted, and executed the player, who had no alternative than to find another means to argue their case, as the player was told "case closed". This seems to indicate that had the player NOT made the posts they did, and been picked up by Casinomeister, the mistake would never have been discovered, and this player would have been a GENUINE victim of "theft" by an online casino.
The fact that another Casinomeister member has just been found out as a fraudster shows the problem does exist. What is needed is a proper means for players to appeal internally, surely the "weekend crew" were not the level at which to make this decision in this case.
Further, we now have an allegation that Grand Virtual confiscates deposits, not just for fraud (which has now been shown to have innocent victims of confiscation), but merely for playing in a way they don't like. If they are accredited, they should not be confiscating deposits for "bonus abuse", and it is debatable whether they should be doing so for fraud. Cited are instances where the funds did not belong to the fraudster, and this does not entitle the casino to keep them, as this is "handling stolen goods". In this country, if you think you have received stolen goods unintentionally, you are obliged to return them unless the original owner (in this case the banks) say you can retain them. It is bad enough to find your account has been used fraudulently, but to have some merchants detect the fraud, and then refuse to repatriate the funds, makes the situation worse.

From my current reading of this thread, and assuming the OP didn't lie when they said all was OK now, I would treat Grand Virtual as a "proceed with caution", not something I would expect to have to do with an accredited group. I base this on the fact that it looks like they have an "f u clause" policy that can lead them to confiscating all the deposits, which goes well beyond the bonus abuse concept of considering undesirable play as "void".

If fraud is really such a problem from players, then genuine players might as well accept that no matter what precautions they take, they WILL get screwed over sometime no matter how reputable the casinos they play at are.
It would help players feel more sympathetic towards casinos that are hit this way if software vendors and some licencing juristictions start taking proper action when it is the CASINOs that indicate there are grounds for believing they are acting in bad faith.

[Casinomeister]

I asked them about the confiscation of advantage player deposits and their policy dictates that this is not done.

I haven't seen any evidence of the confiscations of deposits from this group, and I have in contact with them since 1999. As far as I know, the only time deposits have been forfeited is from fraudsters.

If there is evidence of this claim - please post it here. And please don't include complaints that are associate with player fraud.

BKKpoker - if you have an old issue with them, please PAB and I'll find out what happened to your deposit.

[Casinomeister]

Originally Posted by vinylweatherman

This is the whole point, but before they discovered the issue to be with the weekend crew, they tried, convicted, and executed the player, who had no alternative than to find another means to argue their case, as the player was told "case closed". .

Actually, this is not the case. Over the weekend the player's account was flagged and locked for potential fraud - there were identifiers that I am not privileged to discuss that connected him to a fraud ring. When the head management returned to the office on Monday, this case went through a standard second round of review, and they requested his docs which cleared him. This was done without my intervention and coincidentally when this thread was initiated.

GV gets hit up by many fraud rings, mostly from Israel and the UK (this is well documented here in the forum). But sure, this causes casinos like this to be vigilant to protect their business and mistakes can be made. Mistakes were made here, but they had discovered these on their own and were in the process of resolving this.

It's understandable that players are cynical when it comes to issues like this, thanks to actual rogue behaviour of many unfair businesses.

With this incident - I feel this is pretty much a rare occurrence with GV.

[vinylweatherman]

Originally Posted by Casinomeister

I asked them about the confiscation of advantage player deposits and their policy dictates that this is not done.

I haven't seen any evidence of the confiscations of deposits from this group, and I have in contact with them since 1999. As far as I know, the only time deposits have been forfeited is from fraudsters.

If there is evidence of this claim - please post it here. And please don't include complaints that are associate with player fraud.

BKKpoker - if you have an old issue with them, please PAB and I'll find out what happened to your deposit.

Some confusion still seems to exist between GRAND Virtual, and the !Queen of Rogue City", the VIRTUAL group, who DO indeed confiscate anything they deem fit.
One thing that DOES need clearing up is whether the OP did anything at all "wrong" that could have lead them to receive this most direct of accusations from the casino:-

Thank you for your inquiry. Your account has been permanently blocked
by our Operations Department. The reason for blockage is that your
computer used to set up your player account has been connected to a
known fraud ring. There will be no further debits and/or credits posted
to your credit card or your preferred payment method and thus no
winnings will be paid out.

Regards,
Customer Care Team

There was nothing "woolly" about this explanation, and if these mistakes can be so easily made then it is most important that casinos accept that mistakes CAN be made, and should NEVER say they consider this final. In this particular case, it seems this came even BEFORE the player was asked for the usual documents.
It is IMPOSSIBLE for casinos to be anywhere near 100% sure at that stage, the cleverest fraudsters are not as stupid as the amateur, and will have taken steps to ensure that their details are NOT "fabricated", but are "cloned" so as to stand up as genuine from a cursory inspection. It is only when supporting documents are requested that casinos can see discrepencies in the details that require further investigation.
This player would do well to check their credit files in case they have had their details "cloned" and used elsewhere on the internet, it is this cloning that can create a completely groundless association between a "fraud ring" and an unconnected player. The cleverest fraudsters would even implement "dynamic MAC addresses" for the machines they use, so as to make them appear as different people, they would spoof IP addresses, and ensure any falsified data was consistent with the details given to any merchant.
If we have to accept non-disclosure because of security fears, then casinos must ENSURE they get it RIGHT before they shoot off a damning accusation to a customer and tell them they are having large amounts of money "stolen" from their accounts. EVERY TIME a casino gets it wrong, and the player does not get redress, we have one casino that can be considered a "thief". This is in the same sense that we can be convicted of "theft" if we take advantage of a mistake, and refuse to listen when it is pointed out to us, usually by a bank or shop.

Unfortunately, so many casinos have grossly misused the term "fraud ring" to include members of certain casino related forums, or even recipients of certain mailings from their affiliates, who will mislead to make a mundane offer look brilliant, even to the point of telling how it should be played (no doubt such affiliates are paid for new players, not a percentage of the hold for them should they lose). Even husband & wife* playing together seem to constitute a "fraud ring" in the eyes of some casinos, and is probably one of the few leisure activities where husband & wife* should split up, and go to separate venues.

When I first started playing in the summer of 2004, I saw almost NO complaints of players saying casinos had "stolen" their money except when related to the worst rogue sites, now barely a single day goes by without a complaint related to confiscation of winnings from a player. While some are fraud, it surely cannot be the case that the entire increase is due to such an increase in player fraud. If this were so, most casinos would have gone bust, as detected fraud is usually only a fraction of what goes undiscovered, and technology has moved on in those 3 years, and casino software has had the opportunity to be adapted to weed out the silly mistakes that new players might make that could look like fraud.

Given how big business behaves towards UK consumers, I will never be able to believe that any business is incapable of "bending" the rules in order to make a few extra dollars. The biggest, and most reputable and longstanding pillars of UK business society have been caught with their fingers in consumer's wallets at some time or another, and they spend fortunes pullling the wool over the eyes of the regulators. Casinos have openly exhibited one of the traits already, treating "loyal" players like "cash cows" who can get along with minimal levels of benefits, while spending fortunes treating NEW players like Kings (or Queens) for a while till they seem hooked.


* Includes all kinds of partnerships, the problem being that they cohabit one dwelling, as one would expect.

[Casinomeister]

From the casino:

Ultra Internet Media SA (UIM), the owner/operator of Everest Poker, Everest Casino and several other prominent online casinos has never accepted US play throughout its 10 year history of operations. For a brief period in 2006, there was collaboration with a third party based in the UK, whereby this third party offered gaming to US players under a few of our brands. The entire customer relationship, including processing of deposits and cashouts and servicing of these customers was handled by this third party and neither UIM nor the technology provider received any financial benefit. Only a very small number of US based players were involved and the relationship ended in July of 2006.

[Keyser]

Originally Posted by Paj

Thank you for your inquiry. Your account has been permanently blocked
by our Operations Department. The reason for blockage is that your
computer used to set up your player account has been connected to a
known fraud ring. There will be no further debits and/or credits posted
to your credit card or your preferred payment method and thus no
winnings will be paid out.

Regards,
Customer Care Team

I am glad that things have worked out and, as Bryan said, the casino themselves initiated the second review of his account. However, this Email, as vinylweatherman points out, is entirely unacceptable. "Permanently blocked" is what it means, and there is no way for the player to think that the casino is acting in a reasonable manner.

Why not an EMail stating "Your account is locked and under review because it appears that your computer used to set up your player account has been connected to a known fraud ring. This matter has been forwarded to (more senior personnel) and we will be in contact with you by (some time in the future)." You can also then add some boilerplate about if fraud is confirmed, then the account will be permanently closed and funds seized (although I agree with vinylweatherman also that just because a player is a complete fraud does not give the right to the casino to just keep the money. They have to follow through with the bank/credit card/payment processor as to how to proceed)

[PSB]

Keyser I agree that email is strongly worded. Sounds like there's no way out.
But I think this thread is going in circles... the OP is long gone, with the issue taken care of. It's curious how other posters keep hammering away at the original email, despite what's transpired since.

Surely their "Customer Care Team" has undergone reviews? One wonders if the person responsible for writing the original message was talked to? He he , what if she/he were even aware of this thread? Imagine the shame from first taking a hard line suggesting the player's account was blocked permanently to the casino management stepping in and reversing the decision...thereby nullifying anything she/he wrote.