Locked Account at Royal Vegas & Vegas Towers

[fortunelounge]

Originally Posted by Vesuvio

You don't really mean "bonus abusers" - you mean people who take you up on your offers, meet the terms and withdraw. Perfectly understandable that you don't like winners, but you set the terms of your offers..

I do mean "bonus abusers". We do not, and have not had, issues with players who take us up on our offers, try out the different games in our casinos and withdraw. We have never had any issue with real, legitimate winners either.

This is a case where players purchase the minium required to receive the offer (no problem with this) wager the full amount on one hand of a low risk game and, if they win, proceed to play only French Roulette, betting on red or black / odds or evens to meet the wagering requirements and then to cash in and disappear. This is nothing else than bonus abuse, call it what you like.

Originally Posted by Vesuvio

"Well organized syndicates" generally means no more than people reading the same forums and trying the same offers. It's just the same if someone posts about a casino with great new slots on here and a few dozen choose to play there after reading it - except of course you welcome those players with open arms.

Thank you for your version. We regard syndicates as players linked by certain identifiers who play from the same area and display the same patterns.

Originally Posted by Vesuvio

As a general comment, it's hard to see how no "innocent" players would be affected - what you call bonus abuse is really no different to the pattern of play you'd find naturally from an even moderately clued-up player trying out various casinos..

No inncocent players were affected. It will be totally insane of us to throw away good (potential) business. Moderately clued-up players do not all display exactly the same patterns as in this case.

Originally Posted by Vesuvio

Locking accounts of players you don't care to have at your casinos is fine - refusing to pay cash-ins after players met your terms is fraud. (Falling back on your "we can do whatever we like" term is the sure sign of a rogue - and if it became the rule it would fully justify all of the US government's actions with regard to the industry)That's something of an understatement. If you offer bonuses players will take you up on them and try to win. It's a game as you try to make the players take you up on them and lose, but the players certainly aren't abusing the casinos any more than you're abusing them.

If a bank does not have metal detectors it doesn't justify why the bank should be robbed.

Bonuses are there to attract real, honest, bona fide players. It should be our right to exclude players who clearly display that they are only interested in taking advantage of a free money offer with no intention to return.

We have never practiced "we can do whatever we like" You seem to advocate this for players.

Originally Posted by Vesuvio

In practical terms, if instead of altering your bonuses or finding a new business model you decide simply to steal money when players win your reputation will be in tatters. You'll drive business away and deserve everything you get.

If we (and other operators) keep on allowing bonus abuse to this extent, we won't have a business.

Our Terms and Conditions are very explicit on this issue. It is every player's responsibility to read, understand and agree to these Terms and Conditions and no player is allowed to open an account unless he/she agrees to these terms. If someone is not happy with a particular term or condition, then the logical thing to do is to go and find a casino that does not have such a term.
Terms and Conditions are there to protect players and casino alike.

It boggles my mind then that, when we enforce these terms, it becomes an issue and we are wrong. We are then liars and thieves and the player is the victim.

VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

[winbig]

Originally Posted by fortunelounge

to meet the wagering requirements and then to cash in and disappear. This is nothing else than bonus abuse, call it what you like.

How do you know they won't be back? There's no way to prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

That scenario is similar to insurance companies in the USA charging 2x the normal rate to their (potential) customers that have bad credit - even if they have a excellent driving history. They claim that people with bad credit are more of a risk to have claims, which is untrue.

You can claim that these people won't be back, judging by past experience..That doesn't mean that every single player that exhibits this behaviour won't be back!

And of course, the bottom line is this:

If the player has met the WR without breaking YOUR T&C, pay them -- then lock their account if you don't want their future business. Not the other way around!

[Tagdog]

Originally Posted by fortunelounge

I do mean "bonus abusers". We do not, and have not had, issues with players who take us up on our offers, try out the different games in our casinos and withdraw. We have never had any issue with real, legitimate winners either.

This is a case where players purchase the minium required to receive the offer (no problem with this) wager the full amount on one hand of a low risk game and, if they win, proceed to play only French Roulette, betting on red or black / odds or evens to meet the wagering requirements and then to cash in and disappear. This is nothing else than bonus abuse, call it what you like.

I call this meeting the criteria of your bonus. If they simultaneously covered red and black I would call that bonus abuse, if they only bet red or only bet black then they're playing an allowed game with a risk, write french roulette out of the terms and conditions if you dont want people playing it.

[fortunelounge]

Originally Posted by winbig

How do you know they won't be back? There's no way to prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Of all accounts locked, 91% have already displayed this behavior. Seems like a good measurement to me - especially if the remaining 9% displayed the same exact pattern in terms of purchasing, playing and cashing in.

If you read other forums you will see players actually posting that they deliberately abused us.

VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

[thetic]

[quote=fortunelounge;150740][quote=winbig;150737]How do you know they won't be back? There's no way to prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Of all accounts locked, 91% have already displayed this behavior. Seems like a good measurement to me - especially if the remaining 9% displayed the same exact pattern in terms of purchasing, playing and cashing in.

If you read other forums you will see players actually posting that they deliberately abused us.

VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

While it might be quite apparent that you are suffering from what you see as bonus abuse, this is players following YOUR terms & conditions so it is not abuse whether or not they brag about abusing/scalping etc at your casino. As such you should pay them.

I take it you are returning all the deposits from those you see as Bonus Abusers who bet their entire bonus & deposit on 1 hand and lost that hand.

If you are concerned about people wagering entire bonus & deposit on blackjack/baccarat etc. and then grinding on French Roulette if they win, change the terms & conditions to exclude this. It should not take too much intelligence to work out a system to prevent this while still having a bonus that gives honest players a chance to play the games.

For example put a clause in that says that no wager greater than a certain value (maybe something like $20 on a 100% match up to $100 bonus) can be done while playing with bonus.

[NextToYou]

As I have said earlier in power bet thread, there is not such thing as bonus abuse. There is just wagering requirements some casino decides to offer and if player completes them, then there can not be any problem.

So change the terms for christ sake if you don´t like some kind of a playing pattern! How hard is that?! Confiscating winnings played under bonus terms you have decided to offer is simply rogue behaviour. I hope you get rogued if you don´t pay all the players.

[maaritk]

I finally received an explanation why they locked me out. They also snatched my winnings of over €1100.

we have reviewed your 7Sultans casino account and see that you have made the minimum purchase to receive the maximum sign up bonus. We also see that you only made use of French Roulette to meet the wagering requirements for the bonus.

Your play on French Roulette was based on wagering on Black. Wagering on Black or Red will result in no loss or win for either the Player or the Casino.

The main outcome is the increased wagering meeting the wagering required on the bonus money with no change to the balance, (unless a Zero is landed).

Therefore there is no chance for the casino to win back its bonus allocated or the purchase amount from the player.

There was no intention to play at the Casino, and only to cashin the bonus money.

I would like to make corrections: I deposited the maximum to get the maximum bonus. It was 150€. Then I just did not bet on black, I bet on Black Even and 19-36 at the same time. This was risky, because I had over €1205 balance at best but then I dropped down to near €1100 pretty quickly. I also played other games. I played some video slots. I didnt have so much luck in those so I switched back to roulette. That is when they locked me out.

If roulette was not allowed why it didn't say so in the terms & conditions? I feel like being robbed... in the terms & conditions it says roulette counts 50% and american 100%..

[BBKPoker]

Great, one of the few remaining credible groups for US players decides to hop directly into the toilet.

The invocation of the old "we reserve the right to..." clause by <b>ANY</b> casino in defense of their decision to revoke winnings on bonuses where the terms of the bonus have been appropriately met with no explanation as to why they are being revoked aside from a vague reference to these mysterious "identifiers" should be a warning bell for <b>all</b> players to run away as fast as they can and not play there.

My accounts are still open there as far as I'm aware (at least they haven't emailed me if they *have* closed them) but I'm certainly not playing there given the distasteful, condescending, and surprisingly combatative way they've been addressing legitimate concerns players have been posting here. Good thing I have a few other options for now, and since moving to the UK in January, I will have even better options shortly.

[mikepipe]

Originally Posted by maaritk

I finally received an explanation why they locked me out. They also snatched my winnings of over €1100.



I would like to make corrections: I deposited the maximum to get the maximum bonus. It was 150€. Then I just did not bet on black, I bet on Black Even and 19-36 at the same time. This was risky, because I had over €1205 balance at best but then I dropped down to near €1100 pretty quickly. I also played other games. I played some video slots. I didnt have so much luck in those so I switched back to roulette. That is when they locked me out.

If roulette was not allowed why it didn't say so in the terms & conditions? I feel like being robbed... in the terms & conditions it says roulette counts 50% and american 100%..

Some ugly points:
at first: even if fortunelounge may have the right, to think, the play was unfair, they should learn the very basics of probability.
If one bets black OR red - there is of course a risk for player and casino.
How much house edge do you want, much more than just this one number?

even if a player may have the right to deposit the minimum required for the maximum bonus - the other point (linked accounts, suspicious patterns) is by far more severe.
And if its true what fortunelounge says, the player should be glad to have his deposit back and remain silent.
I know FL as an honest group and i am quite positive FL can circumstantiate, what he claimed.

[BBKPoker]

Originally Posted by mikepipe

Some ugly points:
at first: even if fortunelounge may have the right, to think, the play was unfair, they should learn the very basics of probability.
If one bets black OR red - there is of course a risk for player and casino.
How much house edge do you want, much more than just this one number?

even if a player may have the right to deposit the minimum required for the maximum bonus - the other point (linked accounts, suspicious patterns) is by far more severe.
And if its true what fortunelounge says, the player should be glad to have his deposit back and remain silent.
I know FL as an honest group and i am quite positive FL can circumstantiate, what he claimed.

Saying that betting outside bets such as black/red, odd/even or high/low doesn't create any or win for the casino or player is a flat out lie as well. Did they forget that they have a 0 on their roulette wheel? According to Wizard of Odds: http://wizardofodds.com/microgaming outside bets on Microgaming French Roulette have a house edge of 1.35%.

The player did not bet red/black at the same time, or odd/even at the sametime, or high/low at the sametime, so I don't see where they are going with this fictious argument.