Locked Account at Royal Vegas & Vegas Towers

[NASHVEGAS]

In another thread we are discussing it is time to write Congress and it probably is. But why try to write congress if the top franchise of the top software provider can willy-nilly just not pay people their winnings? Why support an industry like that? There has to be standards.

Stanford.

And therein lies the paradox, on one hand UIGEA was deceitful,all about money,creates trust issues between citizens and its government,etc. and on the other hand the majority of online casinos are deceptive via whatever the faux pas of the day(T&C'S,bonus abuse,simply not paying,all decisions of management are final,unfair software,etc.), all about money(with affiliates making money off player losses and assuming CM's vacation substitute greedygirl is still associated w/ RX, she has to this day run FL ads on the RX site-agendas just like our government), and thus all kinds of trust issues w/ online casinos. I feel wronged by our goverment but yet the online casino industry may be its own worst enemy..............................CM, I do not know if the above makes any sense to you and helps to clarify my previous posts above which were based on the Macro issues of the online industry and not the Micro issues of FL which for the record I had previously read every post in entirety...................Confusing to me as the ongoing behavior in some circumstances of the US government as well as the online casino industry currently are somewhat comparable. Hopefully, time will rectify some of my issues with both.....NOT ANGRY JUST POSTING THOUGHTS AND NOT SEEKING CONFLICT EITHER ALTHOUGH IT WILL PROBABLY COME.

[Casinomeister]

...It really is insulting to the gambler. It seems casinos have decided that the games are like Pac Man. We are supposed to put our money in and just enjoy the graphics. Sorry, but that isn't gaming. We are supposed to take their money. They get a shot at ours. They get the percentages. We get to use our heads. That's gambling...

Excellent point. Casino managers and operators should never lose sight of this. Running a casino is an ENTERTAINMENT business, not a cash cow. And they are the ones who make the rules and control the percentages.

And while we are at, I know your standard. You say it right up front. A player takes up a bonus based on the rules at the time and if he plays accordingly, he gets paid. Why is that not eCOGRA's standard? Why do they even allow this "bonus abuse" excuse?...

ECOGRA and I are seeing things pretty much eye-to eye on this. I believe they have been told the same thing that I have. That non-fraudsters are being paid and that they are ensuring that this is being done.

This whole episode has been a black mark on the industry. No reputable company should have made the statements that they did concerning abuse, nor should they have exposed themselves to unwanted play. Like Stanford, I looked at Fortune Lounge as one of the pioneering "premiere" MGS casino groups that set the standard. It's a real shame to see this happen. It's not good for anyone involved.

I received further information today on the outstanding complaints submitted via PAB. As I suspected, more fraud. But most of the non-fraud players are being paid. I think only one is still pending. So at least this light at the end of the tunnel is becoming clearer. It's about time to move on...

...but I think there have been some definite lessons learned here. I hope that some of the views of this thread are from casino operators who are getting educated on what the industry expects from a casino. You make the offer - you pay the player.

[NextToYou]

Can I currently as an affiliate recommend FL casinos´ welcome bonuses and confidentially say that they (players) can play the welcome bonus any way the like (big bets or small bets and any game they like - roulette or baccarat or slots or any other which isn´t prohibited in T&C)?

I ask this because I can see that FL casinos haven´t changed much at all their bonus T&C´s after this episode (just a slight modifications in how much certain games count towards WR). So are they still confiscating honest players possible winnings from bonuses under "too intelligent playing style"-excuse or have they moved back to non-rogue behaviour?

[halfday]

If you have to ask then the answer is probably "NO".

They are locking accounts in the middle of play now it appears as you can see by reading HERE.

[Casinomeister]

Can I currently as an affiliate recommend FL casinos´ welcome bonuses and confidentially say that they (players) can play the welcome bonus any way the like (big bets or small bets and any game they like - roulette or baccarat or slots or any other which isn´t prohibited in T&C)?

I ask this because I can see that FL casinos haven´t changed much at all their bonus T&C´s after this episode (just a slight modifications in how much certain games count towards WR). So are they still confiscating honest players possible winnings from bonuses under "too intelligent playing style"-excuse or have they moved back to non-rogue behaviour?

I will put my neck on the line as say yes - players should be able to play any game they like how they please as long as it falls within the terms and conditions.*

If not, I (and eCOGRA for that matter) need to be aware of any faltering from the rules immediately.

*please note: do not confuse this with a recommendation.

[pangloss]

They are locking accounts in the middle of play now it appears as you can see by reading HERE.

http://www.casinomeister.com/rogue/londonscasino.php

LondonsCasino rouged for calling players ignorant.


Well it gladens my heart to see the sensitivities of players afforded such a high priority that warrants the offending Casino being sent to the Rogue Pit.

Now what about our friends at Fortune Lounge?? Players aren't so worried about name calling - they are worried about about continuing, unrepentant naked theft from their collective wallets by self-confessed thieves.

LondonsCasino calles players ignorant - got sent to the Rogue Pit at the speed of light.

FL Casinos commit outright theft - takes over a week just to get them off the accredited list let alone getting them anywhere near the Rogue Pit.

What vital piece of information am I missing here? I am smelling rats - BIG ones!!!


...

[lojo]

...
What vital piece of information am I missing here? I am smelling rats - BIG ones!!!
...

Well, Pangloss, if you are of the mind, as you are, that all casinos are rigged, it's just another day at the races, huh?

At least you can be glad that no Fortune Lounge Winner Screen shots have been showing up.

[Casinomeister]

http://www.casinomeister.com/rogue/londonscasino.php

LondonsCasino rouged for calling players ignorant.


Well it gladens my heart to see the sensitivities of players afforded such a high priority that warrants the offending Casino being sent to the Rogue Pit.

Now what about our friends at Fortune Lounge?? Players aren't so worried about name calling - they are worried about about continuing, unrepentant naked theft from their collective wallets by self-confessed thieves.

LondonsCasino calles players ignorant - got sent to the Rogue Pit at the speed of light.

FL Casinos commit outright theft - takes over a week just to get them off the accredited list let alone getting them anywhere near the Rogue Pit.

What vital piece of information am I missing here? I am smelling rats - BIG ones!!!


...

When you start reading my posts - which includes comprehending them - perhaps you'll understand that this situation was/is complicated due to the massive fraud involved.

There's your big rat - player fraud.

You continue to make assumptions and post statements based on misconceptions. "...got sent to the Rogue Pit at the speed of light." "takes over a week just to get them off the accredited list let alone getting them anywhere near the Rogue Pit..."

Both false/misleading statements. I'd appreciate it if you'd engage your brain before typing. Thanks!

[nicobo78]

I'm a dickhead spammer

[Vesuvio]

...this situation was/is complicated due to the massive fraud involved.

There's your big rat - player fraud.

While I understand a willingness to give one of the oldest and largest casino groups some benefit of the doubt, player fraud simply doesn't account for FL's actions.

Fraud, like bonus hunting, has always been around since casinos started offering bonuses. If a deal is good some people will always try to do it more than once. FL know and knew all of this - as I said before, pleading ignorance isn't an option for them.

What they decided to do was to take money from anyone who played their bonuses intelligently. Sure, they knew they'd also catch fraudsters in the net, but they were entirely aware that they'd be cheating a large number of players who met all of their terms and conditions out of winnings. Presumably they calculated that it would be profitable enough to outweigh the inevitable bad publicity. They were probably right, though rogueing them, at least for now, would go some way to upsetting their calculations.

I think we need to establish two points to salvage something from this and similar issues:

1) Unless specifically stated otherwise (e.g. you cannot bet more than x) players can play a bonus in any way they choose, as long as they meet the clearly-stated terms and conditions. There is no such thing as bonus abuse, and using a catch-all bonus abuse clause to deny winnings is rogue.

2) Risk-assessments which rely on probabilities of players being linked are unacceptable as a reason for denying winnings (e.g. playing from the same area with a similar pattern and depositing similar amounts). It's fine if you want to instantly lock some players' accounts before they deposit and accept a bonus, but after that casinos should only be able to deny winnings with incontrovertible proof. The casinos must also be willing to share this proof with the players involved, and not only with organisations like eCOGRA (I don't believe they're worried about alerting fraudsters to fairly obvious procedures - more likely they're worried about exposing themselves to player outrage over privacy infringements).

This second point is becoming more and more important as casinos have moved from looking mainly for genuine fraud (credit-card fraud, and the like), to assessing which players are a financial liability to them. Understandable, of course, from their point of view, but it can't be said enough times that while you offer bonuses with a player edge players who cost you money are not automatically fraudsters, and cannot be treated as such.