Locked Account at Royal Vegas & Vegas Towers

[gamerkip]

I am STILL under investigation. eCOGRA is still handeling my case. CM, I am told NOT to contact a third party. I tolled them I contacted casinomeister representatives before mailing eCOGRA. I got a mail back I am not allowed to post any information until the cause is resolved (or not, since it is still not resolved)

Just to let you know...

After everything is finished (It does take a damn long waiting), resolved(paid) or not resolved(not paid) I will post all my expiriences...

cheers everyone!

[halfday]

I do mean "bonus abusers". We do not, and have not had, issues with players who take us up on our offers, try out the different games in our casinos and withdraw. We have never had any issue with real, legitimate winners either.

This is a case where players purchase the minium required to receive the offer (no problem with this) wager the full amount on one hand of a low risk game and, if they win, proceed to play only French Roulette, betting on red or black / odds or evens to meet the wagering requirements and then to cash in and disappear. This is nothing else than bonus abuse, call it what you like.



Thank you for your version. We regard syndicates as players linked by certain identifiers who play from the same area and display the same patterns.


No inncocent players were affected. It will be totally insane of us to throw away good (potential) business. Moderately clued-up players do not all display exactly the same patterns as in this case.



If a bank does not have metal detectors it doesn't justify why the bank should be robbed.

Bonuses are there to attract real, honest, bona fide players. It should be our right to exclude players who clearly display that they are only interested in taking advantage of a free money offer with no intention to return.

We have never practiced "we can do whatever we like" You seem to advocate this for players.



If we (and other operators) keep on allowing bonus abuse to this extent, we won't have a business.

Our Terms and Conditions are very explicit on this issue. It is every player's responsibility to read, understand and agree to these Terms and Conditions and no player is allowed to open an account unless he/she agrees to these terms. If someone is not happy with a particular term or condition, then the logical thing to do is to go and find a casino that does not have such a term.
Terms and Conditions are there to protect players and casino alike.

It boggles my mind then that, when we enforce these terms, it becomes an issue and we are wrong. We are then liars and thieves and the player is the victim.

VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

Maybe I am reading it wrong but they seem to be saying that if you try to win you are a bonusabuser and this is paramount to fraud.

That is my point.

Somehow we keep getting turned around to massive player fraud.

Where?

They are admitting to locking accounts and confiscating winnings/deposits because of game play tactics in which the player tried to win.

This is totally rogue behavior in every aspect. I am shocked that there is any debate to this at all.

[Stanford]

Somehow we keep getting turned around to massive player fraud.

Where?

They are admitting to locking accounts and confiscating winnings/deposits because of game play tactics in which the player tried to win.

This is totally rogue behavior in every aspect. I am shocked that there is any debate to this at all.

It isn't player fraud. It is casino fraud.

Fortune Lounge was a bit low on cash. There has been a market constriction you know. They decided to take some from the players they invited in with a bonus. They need new players and offering bonuses are the way to do that. But then there are skilled players who can turn figure out advantagous ways to play them.

They simply need players and want to offer bonuses to get them but then, avoid paying some of the winners. And they want only stupid players - no smart ones.

eCOGRA is a shill. I hate to say it, but I believe it. They will back the casinos if they can. And it goes further than that. It really speaks to the lack of integrity of Microgaming as a franchise.

Do yourself a favor. Forget these rogues and switch to poker. If you want to play slots, wait and go to Vegas. Once upon a time there would have been a boycott over stuff like this. Once upon a time Fortune Lounge would have been at this forum explaining their actions. Once upon a time....

imho,
Stanford.

[Casinomeister]

It isn't player fraud. It is casino fraud.

Fortune Lounge was a bit low on cash. There has been a market constriction you know. They decided to take some from the players they invited in with a bonus. They need new players and offering bonuses are the way to do that. But then there are skilled players who can turn figure out advantagous ways to play them.

They simply need players and want to offer bonuses to get them but then, avoid paying some of the winners. And they want only stupid players - no smart ones.

eCOGRA is a shill. I hate to say it, but I believe it. They will back the casinos if they can. And it goes further than that. It really speaks to the lack of integrity of Microgaming as a franchise.

Do yourself a favor. Forget these rogues and switch to poker. If you want to play slots, wait and go to Vegas. Once upon a time there would have been a boycott over stuff like this. Once upon a time Fortune Lounge would have been at this forum explaining their actions. Once upon a time....

imho,
Stanford.

I guess you missed the posting where I mentioned "Non fraud related players have been paid and fraudulent players have not". This is a relatively dead thread, with only a handful of open cases. Many of the people posting here don't even have a case with this issue.

eCOGRA has been adamant in taking care of these player issues and getting the non fraud players paid. How is this shill-like? You might as well call me a shill as well.

[NASHVEGAS]

I guess you missed the posting where I mentioned "Non fraud related players have been paid and fraudulent players have not". This is a relatively dead thread, with only a handful of open cases. Many of the people posting here don't even have a case with this issue.

eCOGRA has been adamant in taking care of these player issues and getting the non fraud players paid. How is this shill-like? You might as well call me a shill as well.

Maybe a dead thread but a serious ongoing industry problem to players. I do not give a damn about the casinos and maybe worse most casinos do not give damn about the players which maybe you will agree is the nature of the beast. Your post sounds like most casino hosts (aka affiliates in the online industry) who only know how to talk out of both sides of their mouths. I apologize to someone I respect for the nature of my response.

[Casinomeister]

Maybe a dead thread but a serious ongoing industry problem to players. I do not give a damn about the casinos and maybe worse most casinos do not give damn about the players which maybe you will agree is the nature of the beast. Your post sounds like most casino hosts (aka affiliates in the online industry) who only know how to talk out of both sides of their mouths. I apologize to someone I respect for the nature of my response.

I really don't know what you are getting at, perhaps you should refer to some of the posts made in this thread to understand where I am coming from.

I pointed out my standards concerning bonus play:
http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...tml#post150769

When it was clear that FL was making statements contrary to this, I removed them from Casinomeister's Accredited section.

Before I went on holiday, I posted this statement:
http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...tml#post153397

A synopsis:

...I expect them to see the light before the next two weeks are over. It's not too late for them to come to their senses. For them to set this sort of precedence can not be tolerated. This is not good for the industry whatsoever....

Now I'm back and going through whatever complaints are leftover. I've been told that the non-fraud complaints are being paid.

Your post sounds like most casino hosts (aka affiliates in the online industry) who only know how to talk out of both sides of their mouths.

So WTF is that supposed to mean?

[NASHVEGAS]

[/QUOTE]So WTF is that supposed to mean? [/QUOTE] .................................................. ................................................I expressed and stand by my post and you I assume the same, any further discussion would accomplish little so with all due respect there is nothing further to be gained imo.

[Vesuvio]

I guess you missed the posting where I mentioned "Non fraud related players have been paid and fraudulent players have not". This is a relatively dead thread, with only a handful of open cases. Many of the people posting here don't even have a case with this issue.

eCOGRA has been adamant in taking care of these player issues and getting the non fraud players paid.

Actually, I think eCOGRA have been positive here. If they would just come out openly to say that the "catch-all term" is unacceptable and then consistently ignore it when dealing with claims they might yet be a worthwhile organisation.

Fortune Lounge not paying players and leaving it to eCOGRA to sort out their mess, however, is unacceptable. As before, they should have one last chance to apologise and promise not to claim "bonus abuse" as an excuse for non-payment in future. If they don't, they should be rogued (on the basis of their own statements, e-mails and recent practice).

[Stanford]

I guess you missed the posting where I mentioned "Non fraud related players have been paid and fraudulent players have not". This is a relatively dead thread, with only a handful of open cases. Many of the people posting here don't even have a case with this issue.

eCOGRA has been adamant in taking care of these player issues and getting the non fraud players paid. How is this shill-like? You might as well call me a shill as well.

I guess you missed the posting where I mentioned "Non fraud related players have been paid and fraudulent players have not". This is a relatively dead thread, with only a handful of open cases. Many of the people posting here don't even have a case with this issue.

eCOGRA has been adamant in taking care of these player issues and getting the non fraud players paid. How is this shill-like? You might as well call me a shill as well.

Congratulations on getting the players paid. It is getting where you can't go on vacation without things getting out of hand.

You do more than enough for players. But for Fortune Lounge, paying some players who complained isn't enough. There are some key Micro-Gaming Franchises that set standards. Fortune Lounge is certainly one of those. Their standard is different than yours. Their standard is they can take your money if you win and they don't like how you choose to attack the game.

It really is insulting to the gambler. It seems casinos have decided that the games are like Pac Man. We are supposed to put our money in and just enjoy the graphics. Sorry, but that isn't gaming. We are supposed to take their money. They get a shot at ours. They get the percentages. We get to use our heads. That's gambling.

Once upon a time it was bonus abuse because someone took the bonus and just played the minimum bet till they cleared the wagering requirements. Many of us played over the wager requirements and bet bigger just to stop the whining. Casinos were complaining that grinding didn't give them a fair shot at our money. Sure, if a player could control his compulsion he could grind out a win. Most of the time. It is a low variance approach to the game.

Now its bonus abuse when you try to bet big and double up. A high variance approach to the game. I can't tell you the number of times I have tried to double up to the maximum and then throttle back if I hit a nice win. I lost often but then I had some larger wins. With high variance play, the casino has a nice shot at the money - still bonus abuse according to them.

The truth is neither low variance play or high variance play is bonus abuse. But yet we have Fortune Lounge claiming that how you bet your money is a basis for stealing the winnings. Yet on the high variance plays, how many times do they go back and refund the losses?

Remember when Gaming Club did a similar thing? They publicly apologized and acknowledged their error. And at least they refunded losses as well denied winnings right up front. You notice Fortune Lounge didn't do that. Fortune Lounge conduct is much worse than GC example. And Gaming Club fully acknowledged their error. They posted on a public forum the following:

"Notwithstanding that a number of the players who were excluded should not have received the offer in the first place, GC believes that it is incorrect to exclude players after they take up an offer that has been made to them unless such players blatantly breach the published terms and conditions.

GC therefore apologizes to all players for not acting in accordance with this belief, as well as for taking so long to realize and admit its error.

Steps have been taken to rectify the error by crediting all of the excluded accounts with the previously denied bonuses plus an apology bonus of 10% of the denied amount. All of the affected players have been emailed informing them of this and will also receive courtesy telephone calls from the casino."

http://mb.winneronline.com/printthre...&page=30&pp=10

Where is the Fortune Lounge apology? What kind of standard do they propose?

And while we are at, I know your standard. You say it right up front. A player takes up a bonus based on the rules at the time and if he plays accordingly, he gets paid. Why is that not eCOGRA's standard? Why do they even allow this "bonus abuse" excuse?

I have seen other published eCOGRA responses in the past, initially ruling in favor of the casino because of "bonus abuse". They are a standard setting organization. They shouldn't waffle on this. You don't.

As it stands, Fortune Lounge claims to be able to withhold monies because of a player's wagering strategy. That's just bizarre. They have not backed off that claim. They should and they should do it publicly. They could do it here.

One more thing. This is a bad time for a premiere MicroGaming franchise to go off the reservation. In another thread we are discussing it is time to write Congress and it probably is. But why try to write congress if the top franchise of the top software provider can willy-nilly just not pay people their winnings? Why support an industry like that? There has to be standards.

Stanford.

[Casinomeister]

Just finishing up the PABs and following up on these complaints submitted via Casinomeister to Fortune Lounge. So far I have the following that concern this bonus "abuse" issue:

23 complaints total

4 resolved - players' accounts unlocked and paid

6 fraudsters

13 pending. That's not good since most of these were submitted before my departure on 30 March.

"Non fraud related players have been paid and fraudulent players have not." was what I was told last week when I returned. They have until tomorrow to let me know what is up with the remaining 13 players.