Locked Account at Royal Vegas & Vegas Towers

[vinylweatherman]

They do not have anything on me other than what they may consider "bonus abuse" in the casino. It is definitely not fraud though. I am not a member of any ring nor do I have an army of garden gnomes with accounts. This may be a problem though as I do have money at a couple of other Microgaming poker rooms that are unrelated to Fortune Lounge. That would really make me ill. I have submitted a PAB as well as complaints to eCOGRA and the Kahnawake Gaming Commission.

You should strongly consider NOT having "money at a couple of other Microgaming Poker rooms". While unrelated to FL, they are all related to Microgaming Poker Network. All they know is you have had your poker account locked. The Poker industry is so paranoid about collusion & fraud they will lock and ask questions later once the negative database is updated. Players have had accounts locked simply because they have appeared to have more than one alias over the entire Prima network, even though it is sometimes hard to determine exactly who is who in this networking game when signing up at individual skins. In casino terms, it is like being told you must have the same account number at all MG casinos, whether FL or Palace Group. The same rule appears in the new casino tournament lobby, and I fail to see why, since there is no "collusion" element when playing Thunderstruck that would gain any advantage.

[Vesuvio]

Thanks for the reply, dominique. I agree with most of what you write, though FL don't agree with us and do seem to consider "bonus hunting" cause for confiscating funds.

If a casino would post here exactly how each instance of fraud was committed, you would have all sorts of people running off to try it on some other casino, so understandably they can't do that. It's like handing out an instruction manual on how to commit fraud.

I don't think that's true - firstly Fortune Lounge have, perhaps ineptly, explained how to commit this particular "fraud", and secondly I think if they had conclusive proof against players they would jump at the chance to use it & wouldn't be sending out scatter-gun e-mails. In effect, as Fortune Lounge know many of these players won't have done anything wrong, they're knowingly defrauding a good percentage of players out of winnings. Not the sort of thing a reputable casino should be engaging in.

Taking fraud more generally (ignoring bonus hunting) & reading between the lines, I don't think FL have in mind anything that that word usually conjures up (credit card cheats, stealing someone's ID or whatever). Apart from bonus hunting, the word "syndicate" they use sounds sinister, but presumably it's something akin to the perfectly legal National Lottery syndicates in the UK. If you have a group of people willing to pool their resources I don't see anything particularly evil in that, though it may break a term or two and give casinos a reason not to pay.

There are two problems if you decide to "go after" such syndicates:

1) there's no way of using most of the flags the casinos seem to be using (play pattern, location etc.) to prove anything. I know from experience that if you play in the same way with no links to anyone else you can get caught. When the key flag is an obvious way of playing that might occur to any vaguely sentient being you can see the absurdity of it. (using these flags to exclude players after paying them is fair enough, and may well make sense)

2) and perhaps the clincher - even if it was possible to catch all "syndicates" run in a central way (let's say from one computer) there's nothing to stop exactly the same effect being achieved in a decentralised manner, in which case there's simply no proof to find (short of 24hr surveillance by a team of private eyes, checking who's visiting who and what happens behind closed doors).

The problem here really isn't fraud at all, it's the mathematics of bonuses. If you set them up so the player has an edge lots of players will always play to exploit that edge. If you set them up so the player has no chance and even has his winnings removed if he dares to win, the bonus won't attract anyone (except the terminally stupid).

You need to find a middle ground; a tricky task which not being a casino owner I can happily ignore

[Bindiana_Jones]

Just to keep people updated with my situation, their rep has now stopped taking PMs after sending me the following:

Please direct your complaint to eCOGRA.

It is total scum behavior to try and scam a casino just because you have found a loophole.

Wim
VP Operations

This was a reply to the earlier one I'd sent him saying

I must say it's pretty terrible to see you lot going down the stealing players funds route. I thought you were supposed to be reputable but obviously not......

It's total scum behaviour to steal players funds just because you don't like the way they play.

I really find this all shocking. I've been very carefull to only play at reputable casinos and am carefull to follow terms and conditions. I'm farily new to it all (gambling online since last September) and don't want the horror stories you read about happening to me.

I've certainly commited no fraud, and when I asked Wim what terms I'd broken he never came up with any. I think that pretty much tells you that I've done nothing wrong, and probably all the others they're trying to steal money from as well.

Complained to eCOGRA now as well as to Casinomeister yesterday so hopefully something will be done to stop this theft from happening

[cash4andy]

The Casino Rep called you scum

Can you verify this Casinomeister - if that's true it's beyond belief

[halfday]

Fraud issues (fake IDs, stollen CCs, etc.) are a separate things.

What is overlooked here is the responses of FL which clearly state that acconuts were locked because of playing for the bonus money - betting on Red-Black on roulette, betting all money on one hand etc. and not because of fake account details.
I think this is where the community wants to see some action. It is my first post, but I have always referred player complaints to Casinomeister. And I believe that in this case he will go straight to the point (bonus abuse) and will not accept a generic response (syndicates, mafias, moon gravity).

It would be nice to see a clear response TO Casinomeister FROM FL about why players obeying their T&C have their winning confiscated - I agree, that online casinos, just like any other business, have the right to refuse service to anyone, but once they accept a deposit from a player - both player and casino are binded by the T&C which are not broken by playing red-black on roulette.

I think that they DID give a clear response:

"we don't like winning players who use a bonus and we don't want to pay them"

Is there even a shred of difference between fortune lounge's actions and that of Casino4Aces or African Palace? There is no difference whatsoever.
I am surprised that some affiliates are even attempting to agree with FL that this is acceptable.

[lojo]

Just to keep people updated with my situation, their rep has now stopped taking PMs after sending me the following:



This was a reply to the earlier one I'd sent him saying



I really find this all shocking. I've been very carefull to only play at reputable casinos and am carefull to follow terms and conditions. I'm farily new to it all (gambling online since last September) and don't want the horror stories you read about happening to me.

I've certainly commited no fraud, and when I asked Wim what terms I'd broken he never came up with any. I think that pretty much tells you that I've done nothing wrong, and probably all the others they're trying to steal money from as well.

Complained to eCOGRA now as well as to Casinomeister yesterday so hopefully something will be done to stop this theft from happening

That is 'shocking'. You called them disreputable thieves and said their behavior was scum-like. He replied that the behavior of scamming a casino is scumlike 'just because you have found a loophole'.

Even though a Private Message, that was less than professional on Wim's part IMO; regardless of what else was conveyed or how many nasty messages they are dealing with right now. Bummer.

But it doesn't change the reality of what is really going on, whatever that may be.

Maybe I'm a naive optimist, but I think this is all going to work out just fine. The players who deserve their deposits back will get them, the casino may pay some bonuses or 'comps'. I don't have a crystal ball.


To all players involved. You were dealing with a MicroGaming casino. Fair games, no 'on-off' switch or adjustable house edge, a fair casino. You assumedly read the T&C, including the so-called 'rogue condition'. You took your chances with a 'system' or advantage over the house edge, or not. (no worries if not, this is a MG casino!) With or without this forum I believe the deserving players will be taken care of, the 'advantage' players will get what they have coming, their deposits. Outright fraudsters will see nothing but a blacklist.

That's my take on it.

The land of the brave and home of the free, and laws and rules to keep it that way.

Good luck

[Casinomeister]

The Casino Rep called you scum

Can you verify this Casinomeister - if that's true it's beyond belief

This was a private message (which I am not privy to BTW) and it looks like tit for tat, so it's really not that shocking in my opinion. Both accused each other of scummy behaviour.

I think that they DID give a clear response:

"we don't like winning players who use a bonus and we don't want to pay them"

Is there even a shred of difference between fortune lounge's actions and that of Casino4Aces or African Palace? There is no difference whatsoever.
I am surprised that some affiliates are even attempting to agree with FL that this is acceptable.

It's not as simple as it seems. It's easy to get riled up about what seems to be on the surface some players taking advantage of a casino's bonus, but it goes a bit deeper. There is definately fraud involved (shared player information, identical computer IDs, etc), but it's taking some time going through all of this.

This is really unprecedented with any other casino group. and I'm sure most everyone else is putting their shields up.

I hope by the end of the day I'll have some answers. So far only ten PABs have been submitted. Three of them are more than likely fraudulent. I'll keep everyone updated as best I can.

[GrandMaster]

If there is fraud or suspected fraud, then FL should say that, and the style of play is irrelevant.

[Vesuvio]

To all players involved. You were dealing with a MicroGaming casino. Fair games, no 'on-off' switch or adjustable house edge, a fair casino. You assumedly read the T&C, including the so-called 'rogue condition'. You took your chances with a 'system' or advantage over the house edge, or not. (no worries if not, this is a MG casino!) With or without this forum I believe the deserving players will be taken care of, the 'advantage' players will get what they have coming, their deposits.

So you're saying that if a player tries to make a profit with a bonus the casino should be in a win-win situation. Either the player loses or the casino steals his winnings. Nice

[hakapuku]

The stories like these (the stories with casinos claiming "bonus abuse") are very simple to understand. In todays online casinos industry it is very difficult to be a good casino not offering any good bonuses. They offer the bonuses not because they are so generous but only because they must compete their rival casinos for the clients. And, as with almost any promotion and as with almost any other marketing decision - there may be positive results for the casino/business or negative. It is about taking risks. But in online industry the casinos don't want to take risks- they put all the negative consequences of their wrong business decisions on their clients' heads. They don't want to aknowledge that they have made a mistake offering some promotion and that they didn't calculate it well. Instead they blame the clients for their absolutely natural wish to win money and not to lose it. As if casinos, while offering the promotions ,are thinking about losing money and not about making it in tons. I say to all the casinos that don't want to be named robbers and criminals- stop offering promotions if you are not sure about its consequences for your business. But if you do decide to offer any promotion- be ready to pay for any minuses in your balance sheet that it may bring. There is no other way.( Sorry for my bad english)