Locked Account at Royal Vegas & Vegas Towers

[Casinomeister]

...Not many old timers are likely to complain as they presumably played the sign-ups at FL a long time ago (in brighter times ).

This thread is reminiscent of the Bellerock thread that you were involved with last summer. There were three player sydicates (UK, Canada, and Europe) that created a crapload of bogus accounts. There is a chance we are looking at the same sort of thing here. It's taking time to go through the locked accounts, and the players who have submitted their complaints through me will have an answer soon.

[NextToYou]

General observation: all complaints are from new members here who have signed up within the last week. No oldtimers, and I know there are a number of regular members who play bonuses heavily. Why haven't these accounts been locked?

Because they are oldtimers here, it also means that they are oldtimers in casinos as well and have played these casino sign-up bonuses a long time ago (like last summer or earlier). And it looks like this current action by FL group only goes back to sign-ups somewhere like October and after that. Pretty simple.

[gamerkip]

Does anybody else has problems with fortune lounge not responding at emails concerning their recent locking of players

Text in Red is original first message
Text in blue is original second message. I use gmail, which saves messages already send. No problem to mail my message again with some extra comments about how rude the casino behaviour is. I mean, every email they conclude with this statement: "Please feel free to contact us again should you have any further queries." Bad Fortune Lounge...very bad...!

Hello,

Yesterday I emailed the casino helpdesk. You finished your respons with the automessage "Please feel free to contact us again should you have any further queries."
I contacted the casino again with a replay you can find below, but I did not yet receive an answer back. I have real money concerns so I would wish to have an answer to my mail fast!

If I bet my money and lose you keep it. If I bet my money and win then I have commited "bonus abuse" and you keep it. This is a win-win situation for the casino, an outstanding way to treat your players and the best way to damage your reputation! By not answering my email which I by now posted on a forum-topic on www.casinomeister.com you are breaking down your entire reputation! And it seems I am not the only one!

Don't get rude by not answering mail. You are rude enough by not letting me play!

Still giving you nice regards,

Roberto

Original Message Below:


Hello,

If you offer bonuses players will take you up on them and try to win. It's a game as you try to make the players take you up on them and lose, but the players certainly aren't abusing the casinos! If you don't want a player to use all the different bonusus take down this webpage!! http://www.fortunelounge.com/B4UGOVT...g=VTNEU_Direct

I just played smart, be dubbeling up once and wanting to play through the playthrough requirements after a succesfull hit! This is not called "Promotional misuse" like you are saying. This is playing by YOUR term & conditions! If you are concerned about people wagering entire bonus & deposit on a lowrisk game like blackjack/baccarat etc change the terms & conditions to exclude this!

It should not take too much intelligence to work out a system to prevent this while still having a bonus that gives honest players a chance to play the games.

For example put a clause in that says that no wager greater than a certain value (maybe something like $20 on a 100% match up to $100 bonus) can be done while playing with bonus.

Locking accounts of players you don't care to have at your casinos is fine. Do what you want. But, refuse the players before they make a deposit! Not after the played and won something! You don't give money back to playes who lost I assume(I lost some money an other accounts), so you have no right to ban me now I won something! Refusing to give players(me) no apportunity to meet your terms is fraud! (This term you are referring me to( http://www.royalvegas.com/casino-ter...btag=FL_Direct ) is a "we can do whatever we like" term and is the sure sign of a rogue) And btw, you are referring me to a casino at which I am not even registered! Do your homework better or take more time to look into your database to see where I am registered!

I still prefer to be unlocked, so that I can play. If somehow this is still impossible I want my deposit and winnings cashed-out.


Still, with kind regards and Goodday,

Roberto

[Casinomeister]

Because they are oldtimers here, it also means that they are oldtimers in casinos as well and have played these casino sign-up bonuses a long time ago (like last summer or earlier). And it looks like this current action by FL group only goes back to sign-ups somewhere like October and after that. Pretty simple.

Actually, it goes way further back than October. I'll have more info on this later if you really want to know.

[Casinomeister]

GamerKip - you need to PAB. Thank you.

[vinylweatherman]

I am concerned about the approach to the POKER account of cbe2869. POKER is completely different to the casino, and they profit from the rake, not players' lost bet. If it is just a case of "bonus abuse", they should not lock an account where the player is actively depositing and playing in a proper manner, UNLESS this is a case of TRUE FRAUD, rather than merely having played "too cleverly", yet fully within T & C.
It's just as bad as an hotel deciding you had stolen something from your room 6 months ago, and finding that the credit card you then used is still active, and just taking the money without allowing you the opportunity to be legally found guilty of theft.

FL should beware that if this locking of cbe2869's poker account causes them to lose sums in other unrelated poker rooms, (which is actually quite likely once they hear he was locked from one), they have defamed his character as a fraudster, so they had better have something more than "bonus abuse" on him.

For Casinomeister, "a crapload of accounts" from a few players is FRAUD, not mere "bonus abuse", as they have benefited from more bonuses that the one per person per casino allowed, and have had to misrepresent their personal information in order to do this. I am sure we are all interested in how many of these claims (if any), are an attempt to misuse this forum in order to further the cause of the fraud, and how many represent players who have done nothing but win by using a mathematical strategy rather than blindly wagering on games.

I doubt publishing the exact fraud methods will do too much damage now that the casinos know how to catch them. These methods have most likely been posted on the net in any case, perhaps on a subscription based site. I have seen a few forums that have closely guarded "private VIP" areas for select players, and "advantage play" is discussed openly in the public areas. I have no doubt that fraud is discussed in the private areas, probably methods to get multiple accounts past the security checks.

[NextToYou]

Actually, it goes way further back than October. I'll have more info on this later if you really want to know.

Maybe you are right, heh. I haven´t received any emails, and didn´t have any money in any FL accounts, so I have been just an observer in this case (I feel very bad for people who have lost money because of having money on their accounts in closure time and this kind of a rogue behaviour makes me angry overall).

Out of curiosity, I just decided to take a look at one of my FL accounts, where I remember for sure being an overall winner and it looks like it´s locked too. I remember gaining while playing with sign-up bonus in this particular casino (last fall, maybe September), but I have also played after that at least once without any bonus (I was lucky though and made a little win that time too in this particular casino).

Then I tested another FL group casino account of mine and it is not locked. I am not sure if I have been an overall loser there or not, because I don´t keep records of my play. I have played there also more than one session, maybe about three different times.

I don´t have any reason to complain or PAB or anything else, because I didn´t have any money on this locked account, and there are many other Microgaming casinos with same games to choose for me. This could be a good time for other Microgaming based casino groups to get some new customers from FL.

[cbe2869]

I am concerned about the approach to the POKER account of cbe2869. POKER is completely different to the casino, and they profit from the rake, not players' lost bet. If it is just a case of "bonus abuse", they should not lock an account where the player is actively depositing and playing in a proper manner, UNLESS this is a case of TRUE FRAUD, rather than merely having played "too cleverly", yet fully within T & C.
It's just as bad as an hotel deciding you had stolen something from your room 6 months ago, and finding that the credit card you then used is still active, and just taking the money without allowing you the opportunity to be legally found guilty of theft.

FL should beware that if this locking of cbe2869's poker account causes them to lose sums in other unrelated poker rooms, (which is actually quite likely once they hear he was locked from one), they have defamed his character as a fraudster, so they had better have something more than "bonus abuse" on him.

They do not have anything on me other than what they may consider "bonus abuse" in the casino. It is definitely not fraud though. I am not a member of any ring nor do I have an army of garden gnomes with accounts. This may be a problem though as I do have money at a couple of other Microgaming poker rooms that are unrelated to Fortune Lounge. That would really make me ill. I have submitted a PAB as well as complaints to eCOGRA and the Kahnawake Gaming Commission.

[ogpaper]

There were three player sydicates (UK, Canada, and Europe) that created a crapload of bogus accounts.

Fraud issues (fake IDs, stollen CCs, etc.) are a separate things.

What is overlooked here is the responses of FL which clearly state that acconuts were locked because of playing for the bonus money - betting on Red-Black on roulette, betting all money on one hand etc. and not because of fake account details.

I think this is where the community wants to see some action. It is my first post, but I have always referred player complaints to Casinomeister. And I believe that in this case he will go straight to the point (bonus abuse) and will not accept a generic response (syndicates, mafias, moon gravity).

It would be nice to see a clear response TO Casinomeister FROM FL about why players obeying their T&C have their winning confiscated - I agree, that online casinos, just like any other business, have the right to refuse service to anyone, but once they accept a deposit from a player - both player and casino are binded by the T&C which are not broken by playing red-black on roulette.

[lojo]

Hello Vesuvio, I've already pretty much said my piece here, so this is probably my last response on this thread because I'm not directly affected by this issue. If someone wants to start a 'bonus abuse, what is it?' thread or something I'm open to discussing it there. I'll probably just go back to reading this thread.

There's no way of winning long-term without bonuses. It's your personal choice if you only want to use bonuses when they're low-risk, but I hope you can accept others might feel differently.
What's fair play got to do with anything? Bonuses are offered to attract deposits - casinos know that with the usual wagering requirements any money deposited will be lost. In fact even without a bonus almost all money deposited will be lost.

I disagree with your first statement from personal experience. Looking at slots only: Because I didn't keep proper logs of when I used bonuses and when I didn't I can't differentiate last year's overall profit to strict +/-EV. Nor can I as yet consistently win at B&M because the machines are simply not as easy to get to know (and can change from visit to visit). But I have, over the last two months made a consistent 'profit' in simulation mode on MG slots confirming, to myself, that it isn't rocket science.

In it's simplest form a person simply has to have a disciplined bankroll, play conservatively, and quit when they are ahead. Over a course of ten sessions, the wins have consistently outpaced the occasional bust(s) for me.

The basic premise is to wager low enough to hit a feature or other good return and occasionally (usually, but not always) increase bet size when ahead. (sometimes the higher bets are 'randomly' disbursed throughout the session) Or simply stop and take the profit when ahead.

Taking advantage of a change in house edge is not needed to do this, only discipline. Mileage may vary.

And of course I respect other's opinions.

Yep, rogue is as rogue does. There's no knee jerk reaction - FL aren't a newly-opened operation with good intentions getting burnt. They know how the business works and they know exactly what they're doing.

I'm reserving judgement until it all shakes out.

How does it ruin anything for you? You're free to gamble and lose without bonuses to your heart's content - no casino's going to stop you.

WR are ever increasing to cover their bottom line from the players who take and don't give them a fair shake back. Notice the free-spin intro wr at VPL. It's a freaking chore to earn a 400% first deposit bonus on $50 now. But it can still be done (thanks to Loaded

I would hate to see MG casinos have to go to the extremes some RTGs have to offer bonuses. I like it simple, transparent, and understandable. A fair and simple offer.

I can and will play without bonuses, I prefer to have them available now and then. As I'm sure you know, many players here use them religiously, but they also patronize the properties that offer them. Some don't. Not my place to judge, but I think it affects the market. Lets hope casinos don't go to the insurance industry's delay, deny, and defend stance as matter of course.