Locked Account at Royal Vegas & Vegas Towers

[Simmo!]

My views on signup bonuses are probably well known: they cause more damage to the industry than they do good and the sooner we are rid of them the better.

But that aside, if a player serially uses bonuses to try and win, and plays within the terms & conditions, then that is perfectly fair. cbe2869 and bbs1 are spot on: if a casino offers a bonus promotion, and players stick to the terms, then they should pay out. It's quite simple. Either they are a legitimate business, or they are not.

Bonus "abusing" is fraudulent and bonus "hunting" is fair - 2 totally different beasts and we've covered that one on several occasions. This one sounds like a hunting expedition to me and it would be very, erm, "disappointing", to see FL wriggle out if that turns out to be the case IMO.

[cyprean]

No more personal jabs, okay?

Guys let's to try to keep the conversation civilized. If someone flames you, keep your cool and ignore them. Let's try to focus on the real issue here and not on sidelines.

Remember many players are interested in the outcome of this process. So please do not derail this thread.

[freni126]

A few months ago I had an issue with 7 Sultans Casino. I had followed the T&C, but I will admit that it was obvious that I was just chasing the bonus. I made a big bet at Baccarat using mostly bonus funds, won the bet and requested a withdrawal of the cash balance (not even trying to clear the WR and the bonus balance). I understand that this is not the way the casino wants their customers to behave and that they will lose in the long run if many players play like this. Then again... I did follow the T&C they had at the time.

The account was locked shortly after. This was something I was aware of could happen, but it was a risk I was willing to take.
Well, to make the story a bit shorter.. I contacted eCOGRA with little hope of actually getting my money out. To my surprise eCOGRA actually ruled in my favor as I hadn't breached any clause in the T&C and 7 Sultans paid up.

I post this to give you guys that have money locked in some encouragement..


This happened several months ago. Players have been playing this way for a long time and the casino must have been aware of it all this time... so why didn't they just change their T&C when they first saw the problem?

I am not a bonus abuser. To abuse a bonus you would need to do something that is not allowed (betting both red and black or creating multiple accounts) if you ask me. I do take advantage of casinos offering bonuses though.. for me that is a huge difference! I am sure most of the players that had their accounts locked had been playing like me.. taking advantage of the bonus and even if you follow the T&C doing so you must have calculated with the risk of this happening? We all knew that this behavious is frowned upon by the casino and we still did it... the ROI by far beat the risk of having your funds confiscated so most of the people whining here have little right to do so (even if I know you have not done anything breaching T&C).

[Vesuvio]

We all knew that this behaviour is frowned upon by the casino and we still did it... the ROI by far beat the risk of having your funds confiscated so most of the people whining here have little right to do so (even if I know you have not done anything breaching T&C).

I haven't seen much whining - just complaints and stating the fact that this is rogue behaviour from the FL group. I know if I walk around certain areas of certain cities I might get attacked (so it's a conscious choice to go there) but it doesn't mean the police can ignore the crime, especially if the guilty party openly admits what they've done.

Anyway, going to eCOGRA and not giving up is good advice.

p.s. yep, I know the problem here is the absence of any real police, not to mention laws!

[Casinomeister]

...I post this to give you guys that have money locked in some encouragement...

Thanks, I also want to remind everyone that there is player fraud involved as well.

So far, I have 12 complaints that are being forwarded for review. One has been identified as fraud, and as soon as this has been confirmed, I'll be letting you know who it is.

General observation: all complaints are from new members here who have signed up within the last week. No oldtimers, and I know there are a number of regular members who play bonuses heavily. Why haven't these accounts been locked?

As soon as I have more information, I'll let you know what's up.

[Casinomeister]

Hey Vesuvio - have you checked your FL accounts recently?

[dominique]

I have just read this whole thread for the first time. It's kind of interesting to read a volatile thread in it's entirety, instead of feeding off an individual post that one may or may not agree with, one ends up with an overall impression. I need to do it like that more often...

One thing that is stated repeatedly and that I totally agree with is that casinos really should reward repeat players generously instead of throwing large bonuses at new players.

Other than that, I get the distinct impression that there was a ring of players communally defrauding the casino and the casino decided to do some house cleaning. In that process, some innocents got caught up and had their accounts closed either because they engaged in similair play or because they fit some other pattern that was singled out.

In the brick and mortar world it's called "profiling". It's generally bad practice but then the casinos have no way to actually meet with you. All they have is behavior patterns to compare.

Fraudulent player syndicates hurt everyone, but most of all they hurt other players.

Because of them innocent players get caught in the net when the necessary house cleaning takes place.

Because of them we have ridiculous wagering requirements.

Because of them we have T&Cs that take a lawyer to be understood, singling out this game, that game and the other and attaching special requirements to it.

Fraud syndicates need to be outed - for the player's sake if nothing else. It is unfortunate if the investigation gets messy, so now we need to sift through it and clean it up.

Pitch your PABs.

Re. the affiliate sector: while we work in silence as usual, we are definitely also pursuing this through our channels.

This industry is largely unregulated, and we all need to self police. IMO that's what Casinomeister is all about, so let's sort it out.

[Vesuvio]

Hey Vesuvio - have you checked your FL accounts recently?

Lol, I was just going to post after reading your previous post. I haven't checked as I played at FL a long time ago (before this particular approach to bonuses was applicable) and don't have any incentive to return there, but I haven't received any e-mails, so I'm guessing the accounts are probably still open. I wouldn't bother PABing even if they were closed as I have no problem whatsoever with a casino closing accounts if they don't want particular players. They just need to pay out balances (including winnings) first.

Not many old timers are likely to complain as they presumably played the sign-ups at FL a long time ago (in brighter times ).

[Vesuvio]

Other than that, I get the distinct impression that there was a ring of players communally defrauding the casino and the casino decided to do some house cleaning. In that process, some innocents got caught up and had their accounts closed either because they engaged in similair play or because they fit some other pattern that was singled out.

What do you mean by defrauding and what do you mean by fradulent player syndicates? Does playing bonuses in a way that more or less gives you the best chance of winning count as fraud? Is it a syndicate if I play in the same way as other people because I've independently (or through reading a forum) come up with the same approach?

Or let's say some people live close to me. Is it a problem if I suggest to a friend how he could play at on-line casinos and actually have a good chance of winning?

Either there's proven fraud - false IDs, credit-card fraud, using the same IP or whatever, or there isn't. If there isn't you have to pay the player, though of course you're free to profile and bar anyone you like from future play.

[dominique]

What do you mean by defrauding and what do you mean by fradulent player syndicates?

This varies, and if it didn't, they would be unsuccessful.

But it has nothing to do with using bonuses to increase your bankroll. IMO that's what they are there for.

(BYW I don't want to use the word "bonus abuse" ever, it has a different meaning for everyone and is really almost a joke. )

I used to be a "bonus hunter" myself, and actually my site grew on that soil. Back then it was simple, there were no or low wagering requirements and in BJ you always had an edge if you got a good bonus and played proper basic strategy.

So I am not talking about that at all. If you offer a bonus, it's a given people will try to make the best of it. That's the whole attraction. ( Note that today I would not even touch them myself, too annoying trying to meet the requirements anymore, too many possible winning cashouts missed. But that's my personal preference, they just impair my player experience anymore.)

Fraud is defined legally like this:

1. intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right

2. an act of deceiving or misrepresenting

3. a person who is not what he or she pretends to be

Fraud is criminal. It means lying about who you are or scamming people out of money by pretending something is a fact when you know it's not.

It has nothing to do with bonuses really, they are coincidental.

If a casino would post here exactly how each instance of fraud was committed, you would have all sorts of people running off to try it on some other casino, so understandably they can't do that. It's like handing out an instruction manual on how to commit fraud.