Microgaming VP doubling rigged

[TheBloke]

Originally Posted by Lifesticks

What surprises me though is how MG can make such an idiotic mistake in programming the interface - in showing the result before the visual representation of the coinflip has been shown.

It has only become apparent in the last 3 months or so because of the move to EZ bonus. The casino software was updated to provide a cash/bonus display when your mouse is hovered over the balance. They must have forgotten about their short cut in VP and didn't prevent the new balance display from showing that the result had already been calculated.

[Vesuvio]

Originally Posted by 1819

doubling is more along the lines of a bonus round. outcome is already known. how can that be rigging?

The point is the outcome shouldn't already be known. You're shown the dealer card and given a choice of 4 cards. It should make a difference which one you pick.

As it is the doubling is rigged at the point you get to choose (you've got 0 or a 100% chance, rather than the natural odds you could calculate based on the dealer card), though I agree that overall doubling probably still offers a 50% chance, so shouldn't have any financial implications.

[Vesuvio]

Originally Posted by TheBloke

Not a good example.

It was a bit convoluted, I agree!

Originally Posted by TheBloke

Nothing is 'decided' here - as I explained earlier, it still uses the RNG and still operates the expected way by drawing a card for the dealer and another card for you, from a randomly shuffled deck.

I understand the explanation, though I don't really see how you can be sure that is what happens. In any case, that's not the expected way it should operate. It should draw four cards for me and give me a choice between them.

Originally Posted by TheBloke

If I found that I had played heads or tails, and my choice of 'heads' or 'tails' was ignored and instead my win was always tested against 'heads', I wouldn't give a toss (ha ha). So long as a real coin was still used, it wouldn't matter. I admit I'd regard it as odd - as I do with this situation - but nothing more.

I guess it's just a difference of outlook, then. I'd be seriously annoyed. Note I agree with you that the probability doesn't change and I'd have no qualms about doubling. I've always chosen the card nearest the dealer anyway

[TheBloke]

Originally Posted by Vesuvio

I guess it's just a difference of outlook, then. I'd be seriously annoyed. Note I agree with you that the probability doesn't change and I'd have no qualms about doubling. I've always chosen the card nearest the dealer anyway

I suppose it must be. I understand that no-one likes to be deceived, but this isn't any kind of malicious deception. In fact you benefit from it, because MG's double is faster than its competitors. That may not seem important now, but I bet it makes quite a difference for modem users. I played Playtech VP on a modem once and it was painful.

So it's a lie, but it's a white lie. It doesn't hurt you, and it in fact it might help you if you play on a slow connection.

I just think everyone is wasting a lot of energy getting upset about this when it doesn't actually affect them at all. At a time where the spotlight is on online gambling, we shouldn't be crying wolf. There's enough real cheating scandals out there right now, let's not distract time and attention away from them.

[Lifesticks]

Originally Posted by TheBloke

There's enough real cheating scandals out there right now, let's not distract time and attention away from them.

Very well put

[nafanny29]

I find this very deceptive really. I mean the RNG has to display a dealer card, and all 4 player cards anyway, so why bother having a shortcut.

And like others hae said I enjoy the fact that I have to pick a card, and curse when I select a low card which loses and all 3 other cards would have won!! My enjoyment is now over and I will have to move to a different software. My brain cannot handle the fact its pre-determined.

I would love to know if the VP in Las Vegas works like this. I thought those machines legally had to be exactly the same as a pack of shuffled cards.

[winbig]

Originally Posted by nafanny29

And like others hae said I enjoy the fact that I have to pick a card, and curse when I select a low card which loses and all 3 other cards would have won!! My enjoyment is now over and I will have to move to a different software. My brain cannot handle the fact its pre-determined.

Or how about the other side of it...no matter which card you choose, you lose...cause every single one was lower

[Zoozie]

First of all as many point out, it is not rigged and it does not change the players EV. Cheating might be the correct word, since the player definately is cheated visually.

And it is an insult to have the player pick a card when this picking game is rigged since the card you pick will be switched to the allready predetermined card, this is what I would call the definition of the word 'rigged' in an online card game.

But how far does this go and what other games is also rigged the same way. (not serious, just examples with other games over this same principle)

1.Slot doubling(also predetermined if you pick suit)?
2. When opening the roulette table, has it been determined you would loose the first 50/50 bet no matter what you bet on and then show a number to
match the predetermined outcome.? This IS actually the same situation and I am sure roulette-lovers would now realize the magnitude of this 'non-changing EV rigging'.

You can also take this to the extreme as applying the same predetermined win/loose/tie to blackjack(simple example without splits/doubling etc.) where each probablity is equal to the mathematical probability the cards would give assuming optimal strategy for the current game. So if you are pre-determined to loose, now matter how you play (non optimal) you would still loose. If you are destined to win the cards would be stacked so optimal play would win.
This game does have the same EV/variance etc, but would the BJ players fancy this? I know of course that this is not the case, but this is just
an example over the excact same principle.

So YES, if this pre-determined doubling indeed is true while still pretending to a realistic card game with unknown outcome , I find this very severe.

This also reminds me of rumours of old B&M slot machines where the win was determined first and then they would show a winning combination matching that. It does not matter (EV) if the probablities for win/win-size are correct according to the game, but it removes all the fun from slots knowing this, since
the mystery of the spinning wheels now are obsolete.

Zoozie

[TheBloke]

For about the fifth time now - IT IS NOT PREDETERMINED.

Before you click 'Double', the result is as unknown as any other result in a casino.

Once you click double, the result is known, and it is irrespective of what card you choose, but that does not mean it is a predetermined outcome. It is an outcome determined at the moment Double is clicked, rather than at the moment a card is clicked.

The roulette example is nonsense - it is not guaranteed that you will win, or lose, any VP double; it is randomly calculated just like any other result. The blackjack example is also wrong, and not the same principle at all. MG's VP doubling operates identically to any other VP implementation. Dealer gets a card, player gets a card, higher card wins. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHICH CARD THE PLAYER GETS. Nothing is determined here. You might as well argue about which hand the dealer uses to deal you your card. "Ooh, I always do better when I have a left handed dealer!" It's ridiculous.

It amazes me that CM readers still talk abot 'pre-determination' as if there's some module in the casino server that decides "win, lose, win, lose, win, lose, lose". It simply does not work like that. The server shuffles a deck, deals the cards, and sees what happens, just like a real casino dealer does. Nothing about this situation changes that at all - MG's VP double still uses a real shuffled deck, and it still behaves just like a real game.

I just find it frustrating that with so many real problems out there, people are getting so worked up about this non-issue. I wonder what you'll achieve? Well at best MG will change their VP double so it operates like the others. So you'll get a slower VP double which plays just the same as the old one. Whoopee-doo.

[Vesuvio]

Originally Posted by TheBloke

For about the fifth time now - IT IS NOT PREDETERMINED.

Before you click 'Double', the result is as unknown as any other result in a casino.

Once you click double, the result is known, and it is irrespective of what card you choose, but that does not mean it is a predetermined outcome. It is an outcome determined at the moment Double is clicked, rather than at the moment a card is clicked.

You can go through it all as many times as you like - it doesn't change the fact the card you get's predetermined before you choose a card. It shouldn't be. I can understand you think that's fine, but I don't see what you find suprising about others thinking it's not.

Originally Posted by TheBloke

It amazes me that CM readers still talk abot 'pre-determination' as if there's some module in the casino server that decides "win, lose, win, lose, win, lose, lose". It simply does not work like that. The server shuffles a deck, deals the cards, and sees what happens, just like a real casino dealer does. Nothing about this situation changes that at all - MG's VP double still uses a real shuffled deck, and it still behaves just like a real game.

It doesn't behave like the real game. We've got no way of knowing if the rest works as you say it does - it should, but then doubling should also work in a way we now know it doesn't.

Originally Posted by TheBloke

I just find it frustrating that with so many real problems out there, people are getting so worked up about this non-issue. I wonder what you'll achieve? Well at best MG will change their VP double so it operates like the others. So you'll get a slower VP double which plays just the same as the old one. Whoopee-doo.

As far as I can you see you're getting more worked up about it than anyone else. There's no reason we can't deal with cheating casinos and also explore an issue as revealing as this one. What might come up of it? A better understanding of the way the most popular casino software actually works.

I don't really get the speed issue - anyone who's used autoplay knows it's going to make a tiny difference if the server has to be consulted once or twice. Unless the autoplay's that quick because all the MG games use similar tricks...