Microgaming VP doubling rigged

**TheBloke** · 6th August 2006, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Mousey

But... but... but... "the card you selected is highlighted". If the win/lose decision has already been predetermined by my clicking the Double button, I don't select anything!

Whatever card you do click on will be displayed as the already chosen card.

So, you click double. The dealer deals himself a card - let's say it's a Ten, and then it deals you a card, let's say the King of spades. It then deals three more cards.

It then displays its ten, and four face-down cards. Whichever card you click on will be displayed as the King of spades. If you clicked card one, King of Spades. Card three, king of spades. The other three cards (the ones you didnt click on) will show as the other three that were dealt, and which never made any difference.

If you don't click on anything - let's say you just closed the casino - it won't matter, because your balance will change the moment you click double, because the server already knows that the dealer has a ten and you have a king so you won in this example. The card choice is just window dressing.

Deceptive it may be, but it really makes no difference to anything whatsoever. It's like saying a coin flip uses a 20p when actually it's a 50p. Who cares?

**kingkong098** · 6th August 2006, 03:48 PM

This is quite shocking to me. Call it deceptive, call it a way to speed up the game, this is in fact rigging. Whether or not it affects the payout percentages, the player is presented with a situation where it is believed his decision can alter the end result. This is cleary stated in the rules as pointed out in previous posts. If the players actions have 0 result on the outcome, MG is misrepresenting the game and it is lying to its players.

What about the red/black/suit doubling on the MG slot games? Is it set up the same way where the software decides whether or not you've won before making a choice?

I too would like to know more about the doubling feature of land based machines. I've seen guys go from ectasy to agony when the game presents a 3 and then the poor guy "picks" a 2 and loses his $400 double. Now, at the very least, he is in a sour mood the rest of the evening...People can cause themself a lot of grief thinking their wrong action cost them a lot of money, when in fact they might not have had any impact on the result...

If anyone knows how these machines work, please speak up!

**Vesuvio** · 6th August 2006, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by TheBloke

Deceptive it may be, but it really makes no difference to anything whatsoever. It's like saying a coin flip uses a 20p when actually it's a 50p. Who cares?

If someone asked you to choose head or tails, but had already tossed the coin on his own to decide if you'd won or lost - then rigged the coin toss you watched accordingly - you'd be a bit miffed if you found out, wouldn't you?

**mitch** · 6th August 2006, 05:18 PM

I can't understand the fuss here.

Players must realise that they are gambling against a random number generator, no matter how the casino cares to present the game. You are not gambling against a real deck of cards!

As long as the players expectation is the same, which it is, what does it matter?

If it speeds the game up, good, I am in favour of it.

Should players use this double up feature? Of course they should, it is one of the few situations in which the casino does not have any edge.

And if doubling happens to count towards WR, then it is a no brainer.

Mitch

**Vesuvio** · 6th August 2006, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by mitch

And if doubling happens to count towards WR, then it is a no brainer.

It doesn't at MG, alas

I don't know - in turn I'm a bit suprised that people think it's fine for a casino to be wasting players' time offering an apparent choice of cards when they've already chosen for you. MG have been caught out here lying and doing something they'd never have admitted to otherwise.

Of course I'm aware there's an RNG

- but with card games there's no good reason why the RNG shouldn't just be used to generate cards - then the logic of the game rules decides if I win or lose. Any deviation from that's a slippery slope. Some bright programmer might conclude there's no point wasting time transmitting data for the whole rigmarole of a game when they can just decide wins/losses/pushes in a split second and then have the software on your PC locally make up some cards - regardless of what it does to game strategy. Or decide to weight all results so they conform to the house edge over time, but have more variation in the short term... and so on.

**The Watchdog** · 6th August 2006, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by mitch

I can't understand the fuss here.
Should players use this double up feature? Of course they should, it is one of the few situations in which the casino does not have any edge.
Mitch

Oh my god... I am sure you must be on a hangover... or you an expert on online casinos...

For me the whole concept is moronic. Why would you play on a double game, where picking your card is just a freaking thing made up for enjoyment?

When I pick a card, and the others show, I like to think: DAMN.. WHY DIDN'T I PICKED THE OTHER ONE?? and not to think that my fate was already set when I hit the double feature...

**The Watchdog** · 6th August 2006, 07:13 PM

The whole issue kept me all night long thinking about it.

A little research has made me come up with other stuff....

Most Microgaming casinos allow video poker as valid games for their bonuses... mmmm would this be due to the topic on this thread?? Since the double feature is already set and there is no chance of luck to increase your winnings, so its fine to keep it as a valid.

On the other hand... Several Playtech Casinos have Video Poker as invalid games... Would it be possible that this game is invalid due to the fact the the doulbe option in Playtech is not configured as in Microgaming?? Have you played Video Poker on Playtech and noticed how easy is to increase your balance on a lucky round of doubling in Jacks or Better??

This is a thread we're I would really like The Meister, The Wiz and people from different software developers make comments....

The whole issue has shocked me... At this moment, if I were a Microgaming regular VP player I will hold back my gaming for a sec and see what happens....

**1819** · 6th August 2006, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by kingkong098

This is quite shocking to me. Call it deceptive, call it a way to speed up the game, this is in fact rigging. Whether or not it affects the payout percentages, the player is presented with a situation where it is believed his decision can alter the end result. This is cleary stated in the rules as pointed out in previous posts. If the players actions have 0 result on the outcome, MG is misrepresenting the game and it is lying to its players.

What about the red/black/suit doubling on the MG slot games? Is it set up the same way where the software decides whether or not you've won before making a choice?

I too would like to know more about the doubling feature of land based machines. I've seen guys go from ectasy to agony when the game presents a 3 and then the poor guy "picks" a 2 and loses his $400 double. Now, at the very least, he is in a sour mood the rest of the evening...People can cause themself a lot of grief thinking their wrong action cost them a lot of money, when in fact they might not have had any impact on the result...

If anyone knows how these machines work, please speak up!

can not be called rigging. its the same when you hit the spin button on a slot. 7-7-bar. people sitting there waiting for the 3rd 7 to fall when in fact the outcome has been pre determined. yes vp has a certain amount of interaction where the way you play directly affects the outcome during the hands. doubling is more along the lines of a bonus round. outcome is already known. how can that be rigging?

**Lifesticks** · 6th August 2006, 09:26 PM

I agree this could hardly be called rigging. Deceptive - yes, but not to the degree of the HI/LO game from Intercasino just discussed here

What surprises me though is how MG can make such an idiotic mistake in programming the interface - in showing the result before the visual representation of the coinflip has been shown.

**TheBloke** · 6th August 2006, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by Vesuvio

If someone asked you to choose head or tails, but just decided in his head if you'd won or lost - then rigged the coin toss accordingly - you'd be a bit miffed if you found out, wouldn't you?

Not a good example. Nothing is 'decided' here - as I explained earlier, it still uses the RNG and still operates the expected way by drawing a card for the dealer and another card for you, from a randomly shuffled deck.

If I found that I had played heads or tails, and my choice of 'heads' or 'tails' was ignored and instead my win was always tested against 'heads', I wouldn't give a toss (ha ha). So long as a real coin was still used, it wouldn't matter. I admit I'd regard it as odd - as I do with this situation - but nothing more.

Originally Posted by The Watchdog

Most Microgaming casinos allow video poker as valid games for their bonuses... mmmm would this be due to the topic on this thread?? Since the double feature is already set and there is no chance of luck to increase your winnings, so its fine to keep it as a valid.

What are you talking about? Of course luck still plays a part. It's still a 50/50 higher-card-wins card game, as I explained earlier. Also, as stated earlier by someone, VP doubling doesn't count towards WR at any MG casino, so it has no relation to bonuses at all.