Mathematical proof that something is not quite right...

[Lifesticks]

Hi all,

One of the largest casino has a slot game where you can choose to gamble HI/LO on a number from 1-12 that is randomly generated after each turn.

If you chose to gamble another number will be drawn that cannot be equal to the first number.

After seriously doubting the likelihood that the second number drawn was actually random I decided to contact the casino to ask if this really was the case (the rules for the game does not say anything in a particular to this number). I received an answer that this was the case.

After going through my log and just looking at the times I gambled HI/LO against a number that either was 2,3,10 or 11 (1 and 12 would ofcourse guarantee a HI/LO win) I see that in these situations (64 in total) I lost the gamble 37 times.

Now, to be kind to the casino lets just take the probability of guessing right on the HI/LO of a 3 or a 10 (as opposed to also taking into account the even higher probability of a 2 or 11) i should have a 9/11 chance to win. Evaluating this using a binomial distribution this would have a 0,000000000001798654 chance of happening. Remember, this is not taking into account the increased probability of winning the 2 or 11 gambles.

Due to this Casino being so respectable I reckon that the HI/LO is just a coinflip bet and that they have forgot to state this in the rules, this would certainly be rather deceptive though as a HI/LO gives a very clear picture of something else... Anyhow, as the Casino wont give me an answer I reckon I'd ask you guys. What do you think?

Hope its reasonably clear - english is not my first language... and yes I have my logs if anyone would be interested.

[spearmaster]

I have this distinct feeling I know which casino and game you are talking about - almost surely this is what is known as a fruit machine, and the Hi-Lo gamble is NOT random, as is common in all real fruit machines that I have played. These machines can be found throughout the UK, the Netherlands and probably quite a few other European countries.

[Lifesticks]

Yes, you are right and yes it seems pretty clear its not random.

However, I who have never played a fruit game before or in real life obviously would consider it being so - especially since the game rules do not mention anything of the sort and even more so when the support tell me it is.

So what are the real odds for winning the HI/LO? Do I have the right to know? This is extremely deceptive - at best.

[spearmaster]

Basically, there aren't any odds that I know of in such games. It's more like an adventure game - you have to know when to press your luck, and when to stop - eventually you'll recognize the signs.

I don't recommend fruit machines for gambling. I play them for fun on occasion but it's best not to spend too much on these games.

[vinylweatherman]

Where casinos implement Fruit Machine games they need to make it clear if any event is not determined by the natural odds of the displayed game. Thus a 50/50 chance displayed as a Hi/Lo choice should have a disclaimer in the terms for the game.
I am a seasoned Fruit Machine player, and "Random" is not something us "Fruit" players are familiar with. Fruit games use a controlling mechanism to restrict or loosen the game depending upon the results of previous games. As there is real choice available, poor players will sometimes not choose the most favourable option and leave the game "loose" for a better player.

The Fruit games in the Cryptologic casinos seem to have used all the bad features from UK games and rolled them into one vision of hell. The ones in the MG Flash casinos are better, but I doubt they are random in the same sense that the normal casino slots are.

The non-random nature of Fruit Machines leaves them open to manipulators resulting from bugs in the way the software adjusts the looseness of the game.

[nafanny29]

Originally Posted by vinylweatherman

The Fruit games in the Cryptologic casinos seem to have used all the bad features from UK games and rolled them into one vision of hell.

[Simmo!]

Originally Posted by vinylweatherman

Where casinos implement Fruit Machine games they need to make it clear if any event is not determined by the natural odds of the displayed game.

Agree

[KasinoKing]

Originally Posted by vinylweatherman

The Fruit games in the Cryptologic casinos seem to have used all the bad features from UK games and rolled them into one vision of hell. The ones in the MG Flash casinos are better, but I doubt they are random in the same sense that the normal casino slots are.

I agree with nafanny!

Talking about publishing the odds - who has EVER seen that on a UK fruit machine?

All you get is the overall payout % = pretty meaningless.

One of my biggest gripes with them (apart from being rigged of course) is they don't even tell you anywhere how to play the darned things! e.g. What do those features with obscure meaningless names actually do??? *

I've noticed on my travels that German machines have masses of writing all over the front. My German est nicht gut enough to translate it - but presumably these are the instructions & rules... anyone know?

* VWM - how about adding some pages with this info to your site?
I would actually pay (a small amount) for this!

[Lifesticks]

Well I posted a message to the Casino rep. here, lets see what he says about the situation. Can´t help but thinking that a HI/LO game that in reality is something totally different needs to have that clearly explained, if it should at all be allowed.

[tennis_balls]

Originally Posted by KasinoKing

* VWM - how about adding some pages with this info to your site?
I would actually pay (a small amount) for this!

tennis_balls' rules for beating the fruit machines:

1. find a fruit machine in an isolated area or wait until manager of establishment is taking a break

2. take a strong metal object (a sand iron would work well) and swing as hard as possible at base of machine

3. scoop up any coins which may have fallen to the floor

4. run like the dickens to an isolated location where you can change into a tee-shirt with the Union Jack on it and blend in.

5. if you're an American and you do get caught, try to negotiate a prisoner exchange for David Carruthers