Am I correct or wrong?

[TM1974]

I may have a PaB situation but didn't want to waste time of people. Before I contact a rep or fill out the PaB I wanted opinions of some of the wise members here please.

The situation is that I received a $150 free chip at a casino. Probably because I have lost a lot of money there and they were trying to tempt me back.
The casino terms is 45x wagering and it is actually 4x that number since I play table games. That makes the wagering at 27,000. OK, that is not a problem since it is a free chip and I played it. The rule states that there is a 5X maximum cashout rule in place and the free chip is non-cashable. OK again. I understand that too and I agree and play it.

I have great success and run my total well above the $750 Max cashout. As soon as I get to the wagering requirements they then take the $150 bonus out of the account PLUS all extra money. This was done the instant that I met Wagering and it was automatic.

Fair enough! They did take $1,877.50 from my account but that is their rules and they left me with just my cashable $750. The bonus was gone. My extra money was gone. There it is - my balance was now bonus free and sat at $750.

I then played some more and when I was finished I had built up my money to $1500! I withdrew this money but they only sent me $750. They took another $750 from my account claiming it was bonus!!! I explained that I had met the wagering requirements and that they had already took $1,877.50 from my account, thus leaving me with my own money. They say "no, you can never cashout more than $750 since it was a free chip"... but then I say you ALREADY took my free chip and extra money! You left me what was mine and I played it and won, you must pay me! They will not. Is this PaB worthy? Or rep contact worthy?

Thanks for advice.
I really feel like they stole from me.

[Glunn11]

I'm afraid in all cases I've ever seen with these kinds of bonuses, the max cashout applies until you withdraw, regardless of whether or not you have completed wagering. It does suck, but I highly doubt a PaB would go far.

For future reference, withdraw immediately after completing wagering on one of these kinds of bonuses, then re-deposit to clear the max cashout and proceed play if you want.

[Nifty29]

Wrong - completely wrong.

Unfortunately the maximum you can cash out as a result of the free chip is $750. The funds you used to generate the extra winnings were the result of a free chip i.e. you would not have been able to win the $1500 if you didn't have the $750, and you would not have had the $750 if it wasn't from the free chip. However you slice it, you arrive back at the source of all the winnings - the free chip.

You would be wasting your time on a PAB (IMO). Keep it for when you really need it.

[ksech]

Glunn11 nd Nifty29 are correct. You were still playing on the free chip money. Withdraw the $750 before you lose it. You have to be careful with bonuses that have a max cashout. Most bonuses, unless they have a no max cashout in the promo terms, are clearcut and most casinos adhere strictly to their promo terms.

[KasinoKing]

Unless what you did was clearly forbidden in any of their T&C's; I completely disagree with the 3 posts above - especially if this is a CasinoMeister Accredited casino.

I would say definitely 100% submit a PAB.
I'm not saying it would definitely be successful, but any decent casino should see that what they did was not "in the spirit of the bonus".

If it IS an accredited casino, I would say their actions breached ALL of these CM conditions:

* Must not confiscate winnings for vague & unclear reasons, such as "irregular playing patterns" or "bonus abuse", without specific T&C violations.
* Must not implement terms that can be construed as "unfair" towards the player.
* No player shall be involuntarily placed into a situation which breaches the terms and conditions during the course of play.

KK

[vinylweatherman]

This is the stupidity of RTG.

Once they had removed the bonus and extra winnings, it makes NO DIFFERENCE whether the $750 is withdrawn and immediately redeposited, or whether it is played in-situ. In fact, it costs the casino MORE money this way, because the player has to withdraw the $750, and redeposit it again, which costs the casino TWICE OVER in processing fees. There is also no guarantee that the $750 will end up being played & lost at their casino, ot could (and really SHOULD) go to a DIFFERENT casino.

This is a complication purely for the sake of it. It serves NO purpose in protecting the casino, and can ONLY cause problems for the players because it DEFIES COMMON SENSE to do a process only to reverse it straight away for no benefit whatsoever.

Loads of players get caught ONCE with this, and this generates extra profit for the casinos through preying on the "newbie" player. Once caught out however, you should not fall for this again.

The funny thing is that NORMALLY, withdrawing money only to redeposit it straight away, is considered ABUSE by the casinos BECAUSE it saddles them with extra processing fees. In fact, the accredited casino Club World will "fine" players who repeadedly withdraw, only to redeposit the same funds almost immediately, and the "fine" represents the extra unnecessary processing charges the casino has had to pay.

It proves to ME that many of these "hoops" are designed specifically to catch out the unwary player, because they have NO beneficial effect in preventing "advantage play", and would NOT penalise savvy players who jumped through all the hoops in the correct order at the CASINO'S expense.

Because of all these sneaky "hoops", RTG casinos are able to offer what appear to be "too good to be true" promotions, and these little tricks are ALWAYS buried in the small print, NEVER right up there with the banner headline.

[ksech]

@KK, how is this wrong? The FREE chip had a max cashout of 5X ($750). From my minimal experience with bonuses (from even accredited casinos) once you have made the playthrough, you've cleared the non-cashable bonus monies, you are still locked into the max cashout rule no matter how much more you play. You would still be considered playing on the free chip money since there wasn't a withdrawal or reversal of withdrawal request. Is my line of rationale skewed?

[Nifty29]

@KK, how is this wrong? The FREE chip had a max cashout of 5X ($750). From my minimal experience with bonuses (from even accredited casinos) once you have made the playthrough, you've cleared the non-cashable bonus monies, you are still locked into the max cashout rule no matter how much more you play. You would still be considered playing on the free chip money since there wasn't a withdrawal or reversal of withdrawal request. Is my line of rationale skewed?

No, you are correct.

The max cashout from the free money is $750

All the winnings were generated as a result of the free chip. There were no deposits made by the player. When the casino removes the excess funds, the remainder is the maximum that can be cashed out. It is irrelevant what happens after that - the maximum is the maximum. You will find this applies at all casinos that have max cashouts.

KK - you should email a dozen or so of your casino contacts and put the question to them. I'll bet $10 of Ksech's money that all of them say they wouldn't pay.

Don't forget the player is still being paid the $750. It isn't like they are being ripped off.

I have personally never heard of anyone being paid any extra winnings in this kind of case.

[vinylweatherman]

@KK, how is this wrong? The FREE chip had a max cashout of 5X ($750). From my minimal experience with bonuses (from even accredited casinos) once you have made the playthrough, you've cleared the non-cashable bonus monies, you are still locked into the max cashout rule no matter how much more you play. You would still be considered playing on the free chip money since there wasn't a withdrawal or reversal of withdrawal request. Is my line of rationale skewed?

It's not skewed, but this is NOT something that ever gets EXPLAINED to a "newbie", and is by no means obvious in the terms.

The fact that an immediate confiscation of the excess winnings and original chip makes it look like the "contract" has ALREADY been terminated through an in-play adjustment. This is a recent development, and the old way was MUCH clearer because there was NO adjustment done UNTIL a withdrawal was made. This made it much clearer to the player that this adjustment was STILL going to be made later on, and would give a clear message that a withdrawal had to be made to cause this to be done.

The old system was clearer, and it WORKED, so WHY did RTG muck around with it to produce a system that fooled players because it made the adjustment in-play, but did NOTHING to make the player aware that he MUST also withdraw there & then to complete the process. Instead, the software just lets play continue, even though this is pointless.

Since this adjustment is instant and automatic, how come the software can't automatically launch the cashier with a "withdraw now" prompt to the player.

This is unique to RTG, as other casinos using max cashouts STILL make the adjustment once the player has decided to stop playing, and submits a withdrawal request.

It is the pedantic player who does everything "by the book" that gets the best deal, even though this costs the casino more, and is usually NOT the average "recreational player" that casinos like, but the savvy, possibly "advantage", player that casinos have to defend against.

This kind of thing also turns "recreational" players into "advantage" players, since after something like this happens, they do further research, and become wise to the TRUE nature of the relationship between online casinos and players, and along the way, learn many of the "clever" ways of playing with promotional offers in order NOT to get stung by something else the next time.

The OP has now learned that this is NOT simply a case of play & get paid, it is a case of read the terms, do the math, choose the offer, and choose optimum strategy to reap maximum benefit. Rather than playing on with the $750, optimum strategy is to withdraw it, and then hunt for the next offer to take advantage of, rather than just "have fun" by playing on until they feel they want to stop for the day.

[ksech]

Diggin' through my wallet for a tenspot...
I thought maybe I misread the OP's post and went back to read it. But there was no mention of the OP withdrawing and redepositing. So, I didn't understand where I had given incorrect information.