[CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600

**ftg** · 14th January 2008, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by clubworld

Hi

As requested by Rusty here is a new thread with full clarification of our terms on comps and bonuses.

Comps no longer have a max cashout rule, this is already in effect.

Bonuses will not have a 10x max cashout rule starting on Tuesday 3rd July.
Some high value bonuses might have a fixed max cashout rule on Random Jackpot wins but that detail will be specifically mentioned in the details.

Wagering for each bonus will be in the bonus details page found in the email sent or by clicking on the link in the marquee message. Customer service are also available 24/7 for questions on bonuses.

I hope this matter is now resolved to your satisfaction and you continue playing with us in the knowledge that we do appreciate you playing with us and we act on your suggestions to improve.

Thanks

Jason

I had a problem with my withdrawal at Clubworld recently about 10x Max cashout.

They imposed 10x max cashout rule in non-deposit bonus.

Jason left & I talked to Charlie, the Customer Support Manager just a few minutes ago.

I promised I would give Charlie 30 minutes before giving out the details. Actually Charlie rejected to reconsider but I would just wait for 30 minutes.

**daera** · 14th January 2008, 04:44 PM

I had a problem with my withdrawal at Clubworld recently about 10x Max cashout.

They imposed 10x max cashout rule in non-deposit bonus.

Jason left & I talked to Charlie, the Customer Support Manager just a few minutes ago.

I promised I would give Charlie 30 minutes before giving out the details. Actually Charlie rejected to reconsider but I would just wait for 30 minutes.

But what were the terms of the non-deposit bonus? Was there a max cashout on it? There is a max cashout on non-deposit bonuses, at least for some I know for sure. These terms have been on their site for awhile. Why post something without including the terms of that specific bonus or telling us what bonus it was exactly?

http://www.clubworldcasino.com/forumbonusterms.aspx

**heatherad** · 14th January 2008, 05:14 PM

ftg..
Unless things have changed(which I've not heard), all non-deposit bonuses have a max 10x cashout. I made the post right after checking it out with Customer Support.

Originally Posted by heatherad

Just some information from Club World Support...

Welcome Bonuses this is the $750 3 deposit bonuses have a maximum cashout of $2000,
Normal daily email promotions that deposit coupons have no maximum cashout.
Also deposit coupons recieved from Customer Services, has no maximum cashout
Comp Points have no maximum cashout
Non deposit bonuses, Cashback bonuses, or promotions with prizes have a maximum cashout of 10x chip value.

Wagering requirements:

15x for welcome bonuses this is the deposit & Bonus together.
non deposit bonuses, have a playthrough of also 10x,

promotional emails, have a playthrough of either 10x or 15x, which they can find out from customer services, also deposit bonuses given by CS will also have a playthrough of 15 or 10x which they also can ask CS

Before playing with bonuses, its always a good idea to double check with Customer Service beforehand.

I'm guessing if they are saying it is 10x that it has not changed.

**ftg** · 14th January 2008, 05:49 PM

Even Charlie can't tell where I can find the terms of 10x max cashout.

The story is as follows:
1. 12 Jan: I e-mail the support asking for a non-deposit bonus.

2. 13 Jan: Charlie e-mailed me personally with $50. (no terms and condition attached in the e-mail)

3. 13 Jan: I had a decent run of BJ (as well as some slots) and ran up to $2150 and requested an cashout.

4. 14 Jan: I chatted to Live Chat stephen asking for cashout status. He told me that there's a max. of $500 for that bonus. I asked where I can find the terms. (I really don't know. I just remember that Clubworld cancelled the 10x cashout stuff)

5. Stephen pointed me to
http://www.clubworldcasinos.com/TermsOfUse.aspx
and said the 10x max cashout rule was there.

He's absolutely wrong here, as I went through every single word of it and couldn't find any mentioning of 10x cashout.

He then said it was manager decision.

I even followed the link at the end of the page:

Bonus terms regarding no deposit bonuses and forum bonuses can be found by clicking here.

But it leads to http://www.clubworldcasinos.com/Promotions.aspx only.

6. I capture the whole page of http://www.clubworldcasinos.com/TermsOfUse.aspx
in case they change it later on.

7. I called and talked to Charlie and asked him why there is a 10x max. He pointed again to me to
http://www.clubworldcasinos.com/TermsOfUse.aspx

I stated again there was no such terms there.

He then said that I should know that there was a 10x cashout limitation since I was a regular player and this was included when the casino sent e-mail to all players to state there was no max cashout for deposit bonus. I told him what I can really remember is just the max cashout is cancelled (I am really honest, I don't know there's such 10x max cashout policy.)

I challenged what if there's a new player joining the casino last month but there's no direct answer from him.

He then said that earlier I received a non-deposit bonus from them by e-mail which include 10x terms. I said that I am not aware of this and this was not the bonus that we are talking about.

8. I then search Casinomeister while talking to Charlie over the phone since I remember Clubworld did announce this in Casinomeister and I thought if it really stated that, I have nothing to say.

I searched and found this thread. I refer this to him.

9. Charlie commented that Jason left.

10. I argued that there's no mention about the types of bonus

9. I emphasized that Jason stated that:
Bonuses will not have a 10x max cashout rule starting on Tuesday 3rd July.

================================================

So my arguements are:
1. Stephen and Charlie can't point out there is a 10x cashout in http://www.clubworldcasinos.com/TermsOfUse.aspx

This is the official terms and conditions and we should follow strictly there.

2 The e-mail containing the bonus has no terms included and should refer it to the official terms and conditions but not on any earlier e-mail which may or may not be relevant to the bonus being given. (If I received several bonus with different terms and condition by email, how can I refer the issue to which e-mail?)

3 this of course existed some time ago but this is definitely not existing terms: http://www.clubworldcasino.com/forumbonusterms.aspx
I don't think you can follow any link the web site normally to the page. I mean there may be other old terms and conditions in the web servers with no links to them. They should no longer be valid.

4. I have no doubt that there may be 10x cashout there (and they know it internally) but it's their responsibility to let players know there's such terms attached when they give out bonus. If there's no such terms attach, player can only refer to the official terms and condition which is
http://www.clubworldcasinos.com/TermsOfUse.aspx

That's it!

================================================== =

Charlie decided to just send me $500, foreiting my $1600.

I WAS UPSET and think Clubworld is UNFAIR and UNREASONABLE.

**ftg** · 14th January 2008, 05:55 PM

This is what Charlie sent me regarding the withdrawal

===============================================

ith regards to our telephone conversation about the max cash out on a non deposit bonus I have listed the terms below for you:

Bonus Terms:

Please note that the maximum cash out on all Non-Deposit bonuses is 10x the bonus amount.

All our bonuses/coupons are non cash able and the amount of the bonus/coupon will be deducted from the withdrawal.

As for your recent withdrawal on a non max cash out

A $50 was given with a max cash out of 10x the bonus amount.

================================================== ======

It was quite obvious the terms was written when he wrote the e-mail by his understanding but not referring to their official t&c:

Bonus Terms:

Please note that the maximum cash out on all Non-Deposit bonuses is 10x the bonus amount.

All our bonuses/coupons are non cash able and the amount of the bonus/coupon will be deducted from the withdrawal.

**vinylweatherman** · 14th January 2008, 07:36 PM

This just shows how confusing max cashout rules are, and why most casinos just don't have them. It seems odd that MG casinos can safely run with no max cashout rules on their bonues, yet RTG have to stick rigidly to this rule or risk going bust.
It has been made worse by the forum rep saying one thing, but casino management limiting what "no max cashout" actually means in practice.

I dislike the rule, as it punishes those rare runs of luck, and they DO happen, yet when the run is in favour of the casino, there is no similar rule to help the player limit their total loss, such as a 100% rebate on losses beyond the highest max cashout.
This could also distort the house edge. A player could deposit many times with these bonuses, and FINALLY hit somethig that merely wins him back his money, yet this positive run could be cut by the max cashout, and he would NOT win back his money, but only a fraction of it. In this way, the rule caps positive variance, but does nothing to limit the negative variance.

I also found SERIOUS problems with their bonus mailers, they had a bonus for, say, 2nd Feb, but the link took you to a page giving the terms for a bonus dated 24th Jan, which had nothing to do with the offer. This happened repeatedly, and all these offers came from "Lauren", probably a made up name like "Lyris" of "Lyris Listmanager" to make it look like a real person had sent it, instead of a general player mass mailer. I ignored them all, since it was impossible to get at any terms and conditions, and eventually "Lauren" got the push, and I have received nothing since.
I have not played there in quite a while, and have replaced them with iNetBet recently. They have a more stable bonus regime, all the terms can be seen, and max cashouts only apply to simple free chips, better still, the bonus itself is CASHABLE, proven after my recent first cashout where the amount of the bonus was NOT removed from the total. In my final session, I won back all but $100 of my total deposits, but had a max cashout and phantom bonus rule applied, I would have probably only got half my money back, not nearly all of it.

**ftg** · 15th January 2008, 01:11 AM

Clubworld got my $1,600 but lost me as a loyalty player foreover.

Shame on Clubworld.

**winbig** · 15th January 2008, 01:21 AM

It clearly states (#14 on http://www.clubworldcasinos.com/TermsOfUse.aspx):

14. The maximum cashout on all non-deposit bonuses is 10x the bonus amount.

The problem lies in the fact that this is a dynamically generated page (ASP), so there's no telling when/if this was updated recently.

**ftg** · 15th January 2008, 01:33 AM

Here it goes!

Like I said earlier, no one from Clubworld can point out where they could find the max cashout rule!

The new terms #14 was newly added.

-------------------------------------

But this is also indicating that they don't put the rule of max cashout rule on non-deposit on their website after Jason announced here that:

Bonuses will not have a 10x max cashout rule starting on Tuesday 3rd July.

**ftg** · 15th January 2008, 01:37 AM

Clubworld,

OK. The change on the page is correct and absolutely needed so that you will have ground to impose max cashout rule.

But, how about my case?

It's quite sure now that you don't have this rule properly stated in your website as well as the email that you sent me the offer but when I win, you just want to take advantage of the rule that you are aware of but I have no idea of ?

Shame! Shame! Shame!

Is this a case for PAB? I never used it. Anyone can suggest?