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any Knicks fans out there??? Is Isiah Thomas not the worst GM ever!!! He's making Scott Layden look good.....Can't stand him..Hope he coaches and the Knicks suck again and then Dolan gets a clue "FINALLY" And fires his sorry ASS!!! Can't take his horrible signings anymore....Good Lord....
"If I didn't have Bad Luck, I wouldn't have any luck at all"
Later Tdoggy
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I was a KNICKS fan back in the Ewing years, into the Latrell Sprewell days.
I happen to think that the N.Y. KNICKS are probably the most overrated franchise in professional sports (with the Red Sox being right with/behind them). But... I still like them.
Isaiah Thomas may not actually be the worst G.M. of All-Time, in professional sports, but he is certainly the most known amongst the worst. I happen to think that Glen Sather's (NHL) job with the RANGERS up until this year, was probably one of the worst... if not the worst jobs I've ever seen. I've often thought he was overrated in the 2nd half of his tenure as the club's GM with the OILERS, rarely drafting anything half-decent, which was ALWAYS overlooked by his ability to trade away his superstars for decent players in return, cash, and prospects (hardly Billy Beane though). Many assumed that money was the only thing holding "Slats" back from turning his team into a perennial contender. He goes to the RANGERS, is given "carte blanche" and screwed-up royally. Thank God his reputation was THAT great, because he should be jobless right now.
I actually pull for Isaiah Thomas to make things work. His early moves with the RAPTORS were kinda' nice, and I remember being REALLY disappointed that he left them back in the '96-97 season. In retrospect, it didn't matter, because that team was loaded with malcontents, despite it working for as long as it did. His job with the PACERS was pretty good considering that the nucleus that Bird had coached had either a) retired or b) shipped-off for younger players. They never did miss the playoffs, and Jermaine O'Neil really came into his own with Isaiah at the helm.
I wonder if Thomas is really this stupid, and for some reason, I don't think it's Isaiah "okay'ing" all of these deals. I happen to believe that Dolan is pulling the strings, and Thomas is his excuse. It's too late now, so Thomas can only pray that the ships corrects itself.
I thought that the Curry deal wasn't that bad, because they needed a center. Almost a year later, it was a really bad deal. Chicago has the #2 Lottery pick in this year's draft, which will likely go a player who'll be 2 or 3 times better than Curry will ever pan out to be. Again, Curry 10 months ago - aside from the heart condition - had come off a strong second half with the upstart BULLS. Getting him at that time was fine, but prior to getting him, they had signed Jerome James!!! What a waste of cash, and as the KNICKS had done over the past 8-years, why stock pile positions that are already loaded (well... sorta' loaded). That's where the Curry deal makes the least sense.
Another dumb move, was getting Jalen Rose. I'm a Rose fan, and I always root for him, although I'm never really sure why I do so. I like the Fab-5 of Michigan, that's probably why. I also liked how he became much better than people had thought of him during the Bird years, into the Thomas years. Larry Brown, at that time with the PACERS, had him nailed down to the bench. Why oh why was it essential to get him last year? Also, Rose left the PACERS on bad terms, primarily with his ongoing beef with Isaiah Thomas. Ridiculous! Okay, Marbury went down, so they needed some insurance. Why? They weren't serious contenders at that time - improved some at that point - but not close enough to be in the running for that final playoff spot. So what did they have at that point, a horrendous log-jam at the guard positions. No real PG, but a bunch of shoot-first big guards in tweener bodies.
Dumber was getting Steve "Franchise", who blew it all in Orlando. What an idiot! He could have continued to be the vocal point of that team's offense, scored as he only wants to do, all he had to do was try a little harder and keep an ounce of focus. He elected to pout, not play hard, essentially pull a "Vince Carter", and this was before the Larry Brown debacle. He's probably the least wanted player in the league right now, and frankly, I'd rather have played Penny Hardaway (whom he was traded for) over him. So then the KNICKS have Nate Robinson (an undersized and hyped-up ball-hog), Jalen Rose (a 6th man on a team that needs starters... period), Stephon Marbury (they should bury his ashes over MSG now rather than wait for him to die), Jamal Crawford (the only player Larry Brown liked in the end... because he tried to buy into his system), and Steve Francis (the migraine who gives everyone a migraine).
I'd still love to know why they needed to get rid of Kurt Thomas, who was the only player who'd play the Larry Brown way (at least that's what I'm guessing). He may be old - which wouldn't bother Brown in the least - but he's tough and can rebound. I'd also love to know why they traded away Nazr Mohammed for worn-out Malik Rose. If N.Y. knew that Brown was coming months prior to his signing a contract with them, why on earth would they think that if Rose worn-out his welcome with S.A., he would be of any use with the more strict and whiny coach Brown?
The moves made over the past two years by the KNICKS (everybody and not just Thomas) reminds me of the moves made by the woman Cleveland Indians GM in the movie "Major League". Somehow, they're trying to make the KNICKS the most unattractive franchise out there... that's the only reason I can come up with.
Why do people pay to watch that team play? I'd rather watch the HAWKS play.
About the "young guns" that fans keep raving about, they're not that good. Channing Frye is okay at best. Sure, he looks to be the team's savior, and his numbers suggest something greater, but I think the more he'll play, the more we'd wish he stayed on the bench. They'll need a couple of #1 overall Lottery picks to set themselves straight.
Steed
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Experienced Member
kNICKS
Jerome James!!! lol what a joke!!! lol one of the worst signings ever lol And this guyy was going to be the starting center before Cury came along! lol HORRIBLE..... How much we paying his fat ass to sit on the bench and take up space??? lol
Stevie "Franchise" lol what a joke....He's another Marbury...Horrible...
Marbury...proven cancer where ever he has played...Horrible trade...
Curry for a number 2 pick now..Horrible....Agree with ya....just horrible...
Jalen Rose??? Why??? We sure as hell weren't getting into the playoffs??? What was the point..Horrible....
Frye??? Yeah ok at best. Will he even live up to Kurt Thomas....Doubt it...
Kurt Thomas trade...Can we give Q-Richardson back for nothing???? lol Horrible
Jamal Crawford...The only Knick that seemed to come to play..Even at the end...I give him a little credit...
Little nate...Ball hog indeed...He can go.....Not E. Boykins..thats for sure...
Knicks need yo unload...But won't....
James Dolan is a fool when it comes to basketball...
How does Isiah still have a job???? How??? Horrible job...Horrible...
"If I didn't have Bad Luck, I wouldn't have any luck at all"
Later Tdoggy
donkey
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what a joke!
the guy worked himself into a frenzy watching Riles and believes he's the man for the job.
i guess maybe he could prove me wrong again. i do remember him playing on one leg against the championship Laker team in the finals and still having a huge game.
he may have Riles tenacity, but I don't think he has Riles ability to infect a team with that hyper-focus. and I'm not sure Riles could do much with these Knicks. I recommend Isaihah bring in Stan Van Gundy and then kick him to the curb in mid season.
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tennis_balls
I recommend Isaihah bring in Stan Van Gundy and then kick him to the curb in mid season.
Actually, Stan Van Gundy would be an interesting choice, and I happen to believe he'd keep his nose out of the GM duties/affairs, something which Larry Brown could and will never be able to do.
I don't think that Thomas is that bad of coach. He has his pluses.
- He's pretty good at bringing young talent along.
- He's good at understanding his players, and by that, is able to win them over and convince them to do whatever he feels needs to be done.
- I do believe that he took a pretty bad N.Y. team to the playoffs his first year as coach.
- He never missed the playoffs with the PACERS, despite that he was handed a very young roster that had gone through a drastic make-over.
- While I'm not so sure about his ability to motivate, when pressed and motivated to do so, he has great knowledge of the game.
- I do believe he has a winning record as a coach.
The minuses are these:
- He's not exactly someone who sits around, drawing up the X's and O's like let's say a Larry Brown will do.
- He makes pretty decisions within the game, but he's not exactly a strategist like some of the other great coaches.
- While his players generally pull for him, his assistant coaches/management grow tired of his cut-throat approach to everything. There's never been a deadlier smile in the game.
- He tried hard to win over his men, specifically what he believes are the right men, when in fact, they're not. He may have won over Marbury, but Marbury is not the guy you need to be getting through to. It's his way, or else... and his way NEVER works. Marbury will never accept anything less than being the 1st option on any team. He could have played with Jordan, and he still would have carried a chip-on-his-shoulder that he should always touch the ball. He's a lost cause, talented as hell, but lost.
I don't feel the least bit sorry for Brown. Frankly, he's been a mess for years now, despite the fact that he's probably the most knowledgeable coach around (most likely anyway). He never did settle on any rotations throughout the year. He continuously undermined his roster, benching guys after they had their best games of the season.He ALWAYS did this. When the KNICKS were starting to buy into Browns aim, Marbury went down with an injury. Few will remember, but they were in the midst of winning lots of games, and they were beginning to be ultra-competitive. When Marbury came back from his injury, Brown treated him as though he'd never seen the guy play before. It was ridiculous. Marbury had finally bought into his system, goes down with an injury, and is unfairly sitting on the pine. I didn't understand that whole debacle. And it got much worse by the end of the year.
By the end of the year, only Crawford played with any sense of passion. To go through that many players, and not get through to all but one of them, you deserve to get canned. I'm not saying Thomas is better coach than Brown - Brown is a HOF coach - but personally, I feel that he'll convince his players to play harder than they've done this past year. Brown is responsible for at least 50% of what happened this year. I love watching and listening to everything surrounding Brown, he's a great coach, but his ego is too big. He assumed that all of his players this year ACCEPTED that everything Brown thinks is correct. He was off the mark. This isn't 1965!
Steed
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Experienced Member
if Brown Couldn't....
If a "Legend' like Larry Brown couldn't get these guys to play their hearts out and win games no one can. Larry was paid a ton of money to come in here and start a fire under these "over paid" players asses!!! He did that.... Or at least he tried... Isiah just kept bringing in more over paid has beens...Like Jalen Rose and Stevie "wishes he was a Franchise" Francis.... I don't blame Brown at all....
Isiah will coach and probably half way into the season when the Knicks are 10games below .500 he will be fired, finally. Or at least Knicks fans hope. You never know with such a loser owner like Dolan
This is one of the worst team and franchises in sports history. It starts with the owner and works its way down. Horrible owner, Horrible GM, and soon to be Horrible Coach.
Iv'e heard talks about bringing in a big time player like Kevin Garnett. I hope it happens. And I'd give up anybody on the team for him. But I doubt it will happen. where was Isiah when Vince Carter was on the trading block???? Nets got a steal!!! Now their is a good GM!!!
As a knick fan all I can do now is hope the Knicks suck and Dolan gets a clue and fires Isiah and brings in a rebuilding GM. Thats the best I can get as a fan right now.
"If I didn't have Bad Luck, I wouldn't have any luck at all"
Later Tdoggy
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Frankly, I don't get it. Why on earth should Brown get off scott free? I understand what people are saying about Thomas, but we've known this for a couple years now (and longer if people were paying close attention to him in his tenure with either the RAPTORS or the PACERS). He's a management cancer, and to be honest, he's a far better coach than he is at being the GM. Actually, he's pretty good at recognizing talent. I truly believe that Dolan is the one making lots of those ridiculous moves. I can't believe that Thomas is that gone, to constantly make those moves. We'll never know, and Thomas will get all the blame, but I think that's a massive oversight from all of his (99.99%) detractors.
I don't always like to go with what seems to be the most obvious reason.
Secondly, Brown REALLY f'd up. He did. I said this before, and I'll point it out again. Brown is an incredible coach, who understands how to win. But he's always had a massive ego, a majorly huge mouth, he's more whiny than Woody Allen, and coming off of 2 straight Finals appearances (with one win) AND another Finals appearance with the SIXERS, he believed that HE was the only reason that this team would have a prayer. He never believed in the parts that were left there for him to tinker with.
I realize the players that he had to work with have at different times been over-hyped (MAX contract) egos, but they can still play. He handled EVERYTHING terribly, in a way, I can't help but think that he absolutely wanted Thomas to get fired, so that he could have total control over the team. I see where you're coming from "Tdoggy" when you say that if it can't work under Brown, it can't work with anyone else. But to me, that just isn't true. A Rick Adelman could make this work. A Mike Dunleavy could make this work. A Don Nelson (this time around) could make it work. A Pat Riley, Phil Jackson, Greg "Pops", and Brown, probably all couldn't make it work. Why? They can't handle these types of players. That's why it didn't work out. Brown is too sensitive and ego driven at this point to have ANY patience with players who don't get it. More power to him. We know he could coach, but only if his players buy into his system. He has absolutely no leeway. I think Thomas will do a better job, not necessarily in the X's and O's department, but for his ability to stroke his player's egos. I'm not saying they'll be a .500 team, but they'll be better than they were this past season. Players love Thomas (believe it or not), they don't like Brown.
If anyone points to Brown's job in DETROIT as the reason why he's the best coach, and why he's not to blame for anything that happened this past season... well, that's just plain silly.
Brown took over from highly underrated coach Rick Carlylse, who was doing just fine prior to his getting canned. Also, the starting 5 on that PISTONS squad were all hungry to prove to the league that they're not bums. Chauncy, Hamilton, Sheed, and Big BEN were ALL viewed as either thugs, trade throw-ins, wasted lottery picks, or never-will-be's. There were great reasons that they were willing to listen to Brown. They'd all finally come to a team where they were going to get their starters minutes, finally win some games, and prove people wrong. Joe Dumars had the perfect blueprint, to which Thomas and Dolan didn't do a good job of. Their players weren't hungry, although this year, I have a feeling that they will be.
Believe it or not, I really like Brown, but I can recognize that he's been WAY too over-the-top the past few seasons. His understanding of the game inside and out is probably the best in the league, but his handling of his players is amongst and probably the worst of All-Time. That's the truth. It's been written MANY times.
For the life of me, I NEVER want to hear another rant from Stephen A. Smith on this very topic. The man flip-flops on his stances with the KNICKS and the METS on a daily basis.
Steed
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Experienced Member
knicks
I wonder what Stern will decide. Will Larry Brown get the full 40 mill? That would be something. Why not just pay him the full 40 mill! Dolan dishes out enough $$$ for cancer type washed up players!!! lol
Knicks need to unload a ton of players and just rebuild.
Building a franchise around C. Frye is a mistake. I wouldn't mind if he gets packaged in a deal to bring in some picks and another young player or two. At best C. Frye will be another Kurt Thomas. This kid is not going to be a superstar.
Isiah as a coach should do better. God how can you do any worst??? LOL
I see Isiah coaching and the Knicks winning a few more games than last year. But Isiah will eventually be shown the door. Exit right PLEASE!!!
Dolan was born rich and is a spoiled and has no idea what he is doing. People like him make me sick. Stick to what you know. Any chance of him just selling the team to someone that actually wants his team to win? Someone like Mark Cuban??? "I'm dreaming," I suppose....
"If I didn't have Bad Luck, I wouldn't have any luck at all"
Later Tdoggy
donkey
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colour me "silly" then because Brown is still a god in my eyes and the Knicks management just couldn't keep their hands out of the pot and let Brown work his magic.Originally Posted by johnsteed
I think Brown is one of the best in terms of managing his players and their personalities. Do you think Iverson could ever have had so much success and have taken a team to the finals without Brown's influence early in his career? I also give Brown credit for getting Sheed to finally come correct and cut down on his on court melt-downs. We'll never know what might have been, but I highly doubt the Pistons could have maintained the poise required to win a championship under Rick Carlysle. Brown on the other hand has that intangible Riley-esque presence that wills a team to victory.
And if the Knicks do somehow improve next season, I'll be back to this thread to dole out some more props to LB.
Finally, Steed said something I could disagree with!
n.b. i heard a rumor that Brown plays at 32Red and if Stern gives him the full amount he will stop accepting the monthly bonus.
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tennis_balls
colour me "silly" then because Brown is still a god in my eyes and the Knicks management just couldn't keep their hands out of the pot and let Brown work his magic.
I'll touch upon the "colour me silly" part a bit later.
Brown was just as poisonous to the KNICKS organization, as was Thomas and Dolan. Does that mean that Brown is a horrible coach. Nope, and as I've said many times before restating this, Brown is probably the most knowledgeable coach around. REPEAT: Larry Brown is probably the most knowledgeable coach around. That doesn't mean that he's the best coach around, because he's absolutely horrible at dealing with his players. You may disagree, and that's fine. But he is. It's been well-documented. It's no secret.
Brown's problem - and he's got a few a them - is that HE can't keep his hands out of the pot. He was hired to coach, not whine and complain, undermine the GM, make all of his players worse than before, be the drama queen that only he seems to do so well. He was paid to coach, and he rarely did that this past season. He lost his focus. He certainly lost his focus when he was the coach of the PISTONS, in the Finals last year, pulling a Bill Parcells, trying to position himself to get the next job, when he had a perfectly great one that was in a perfect position to win it all. Larry Brown is not Pat Riley. Never was, never will be. Pat Riley is not stupid enough to pull stuff like that. That kind of stuff is entertainment to be sure, and stuff like that makes Brown seem more interesting, but at this time, he's absolutely no different than Terrell Owens. Again, I'm constantly entertained by Brown because he has something to say, but his intentions at this point are all wrong.
I think Brown is one of the best in terms of managing his players and their personalities. Do you think Iverson could ever have had so much success and have taken a team to the finals without Brown's influence early in his career?
Obviously, that's one of his greatest accomplishments as a coach. In fact, that was probably his peak as a coach. Many will say his work with the PISTONS, but I think that specific year with the SIXERS was his best job of coaching. I'm not sure that it was so early in his career though, his rookie campaign was back in '96. Brown is probably the only legitimate coach that Iverson has ever had. I don't think though, that there anything of a storybook situation happening in the Iverson/Brown era. They sometimes respected each other, and generally hated each other. Most people will point to Iverson being so difficult to coach (which I would agree with as well), but how many times did Brown go back and fourth on giving-up, on his wanting to get rid of Iverson, on his need to retire (that saga alone has been carried on for about 8-years already... when is he going to retire due to health concerns?
I happen to think that Iverson is always competitive, and I'd never want him on my team. He needs the ball to much, and he'll shoot his teams in and out of games. Whle few noticed, as an all-around season, he's been at his best the past two years, and specifically his thus far has been this past season.
Brown on the other hand has that intangible Riley-esque presence that wills a team to victory.
I'll stop you right there. Brown has a presence. Agreed. But he's not Pat Riley. Not even Riley"esque". Pat Riley knows how to motivate his team... properly. He knows how to build team confidence. Pat Riley gets his players to execute, by the will to succeed. They're not equals. I'll never think of Riley in the light that he has to undermine in order to succeed. All players in the league would want to play for Riley. The same can't be said about any other coach... including Phil Jackson.
We'll never know what might have been, but I highly doubt the Pistons could have maintained the poise required to win a championship under Rick Carlysle.
I agree that we'll never know what could have been. Rick Carlysle is the one had originally gotten that team to buy into that competitive system. It was a shame that he was let go after taking that team to the Conference Finals. It's rumored that one of the reasons he was let go, was his not letting Tayshaun Prince play more than he did. Also, the PISTONS had just drafted Darko Milicic and didn't want him to be in the same situation as Prince the year before. When Brown came on, how much did Milicic play? When Flip Saunders came on this year, how much did Milicic play? Go figure.
Carlysle did a pretty damn good job with that roster. Instead of having Rasheed, he got the most out of Clifford Robinson (who was a very effective help-defender at that time despite his advanced age). He also got some of Corliss Williamson's best production and grit, ditto Chucky Atkins, while helping Billups with his confidence by finally giving him a legitimate shot while netting increased minutes. Carlysle is a bigger part than he gets credit for. He also had this once inept team play with a purpose again. His PISTON teams were the Central Division champions for 2 consecutive years while he was running the show. And they got farther into the players each year under him.
I also give Brown credit for getting Sheed to finally come correct and cut down on his on court melt-downs.
Hmmm... I study the numbers on a daily basis. I'm not a "math" guy, but I love sports statistics. I'm not sure how you're deciphering Sheed's numbers, but this is where you've managed to "colour yourself silly".
2000-01 - 40 tech - 7 ejections - 1st in the NBA
2001-02 - 27 tech - 2 ejections - 1st in the NBA
2002-03 - 11 tech - 0 ejections - T-13th in the NBA
2003-04 - 18 tech - 1 ejection - 2nd in the NBA
2004-05 - 27 tech - 1 ejection - 1st in the NBA
2005-06 - 17 tech - 1 ejection - 1st in the NBA
Brown coached Sheed in parts of 2 seasons, those of which are highlighted in red.
There's nothing in these statistics that indicates that Sheed finally "got it" and decided that good 'ol Larry B was right by that he shouldn't get so many darned technicals. Also note that Wallace played only part of the season with the PISTONS, having played a game with the HAWKS and the start of the season with the TRAILBLAZERS in the '03-04 campaign.
I've said this before - so I apologize for repeating it - but Sheed has TONS of intangibles. He's awesome by his strength, his athleticism combined with his length, his ability to score down low whenever he wants (why doesn't he do that more
When he was with Portland, he was a consummate team player. He had to be, considering how many great players were on those teams of the late-90's/early '00s. He was the centerpiece. If there was one person who could match-up greatly and have a monster game against the likes of a Tim Duncan or a Kevin Garnett, it was and is Sheed. Both players have gone on record and stated that. He may always get tons of technicals, but the rest of his game is incredibly sound. Perfect team player.
I've always found that when Sheed does have his "on court melt-downs", he plays a better game. His best seasons have him being ejected left-right-and-center. The '02-03 campaign for Wallace, was probably his most difficult year. That's the year EVERYTHING bad was being written about that team. He put up good numbers that year, but rarely showed any passion in his final days with PORTLAND.
In the end "tennis_balls", we both agree that Larry Brown is a great coach. I love watching the guy, and listening to his complaints. In a nutshell, I get a kick out of him. He's a HOF coach, an ABA All-Star, and one of the All-Time great cancers any organization could want. He'll tell you how he's turned every team around - which is true - but what he seems to overlook is that he seems to bolt all the time as well. With Brown, if there's pleasure, pain will soon come calling.
Steed
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Last edited by johnsteed; 25th June 2006 at 08:56 AM.
tennis_balls (25th June 2006)
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