Originally Posted by Daffy
LOL Hook 'em Horns
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LOL Hook 'em Horns
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[qtuoe]Legendary USC baseball coach, Rod Dedeaux passed-away this past December at the age of 91. [/quote]
Actually, he passed away on Jan 6th (yesterday)... another great man for the books.
And yes, Randy Johnson was also there at the time.
Spanked? More like do or die... and Vince Young did. Great game, great finish, just sad that USC didn't win.I was wondering KK...did you happen to catch the Rose Bowl...my Texas Longhorns spanked those nasty USC Trojans to win the National Championship...lol. (poor Spear)
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I don't know Pudge - like I said, anyone after the 80's... LOL... Clemente at RF is also a great pick. Little surprised you left out the Babe though...
Pitchers - I'll give you Koufax, Ryan, Ford... but you sure you could put Carlton 1st and Marichal 3rd... and leave out Clemens and Seaver altogether?
Otherwise, your list is fantastic
Will take issue with Rickey because, although a fantastic player, he had a bad attitude, especially when he was with the MetsC - Johnny Bench, Yogi Berra, Roy Campanella
1B - Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Eddie Murray
2B - Joe Morgan, Rogers Hornsby, Eddie Collins
3B - Mike Schmidt, George Brett, Eddie Matthews
SS - Honus Wagner, Alex Rodriguez, Cal Ripken
LF - Barry Bonds, Ted Williams, Rickey Henderson
CF - Willie Mays, Ty Cobb, Mickey Mantle
RF - Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson
P - Walter Johnson, Roger Clemens, Tom Seaver, Lefty Grove, Pete Alexander
Relievers - Dennis Eckersley, Mariano Rivera, Rich Gossage
Managers - Joe McCarthy, Casey Stengal, Bobby Cox
Ballpark - Wrigley Frield (although I love SBC part the most)I'd definitely have Yaz in his place.
Honestly don't know Pete Alexander - but otherwise, another fantastic list.
Of all the positions, the one I found most competitive was RF - with only Aaron making both lists. Pitchers always going to be opinionated so can't argue with that - all on both lists were definitely great pitchers.
My #1 manager would have been Casey, hands down. As for ballpark, you got 'em both but a slight edge to the Green Monster.
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Daffy
Glaring ommissions on both lists are Tony Gwynn, Paul Molitor, and Brooks Robinson.
Those are three great ambassadors of the game (ignoring Molitor's earlier addictions, Robinson's financial problems, and Tony Gwynn eating EVERYTHING in sight). All 1st or 2nd ballot HOFer's, but not amongst the elite of the elite in performance. Sure, Molitor and Gwynn were especially gifted hitters, for average, but not secondary averages (like slugging %, OBP which is combining walks, hit-by-pitches with batting average). I'll say this, maybe had Molitor not lost so much time in the first half of his career to injuries, and had played 3rd base (because, he was a pretty good defensive player at various positions) for his entire career, I'd think that he could have come close to 4,000 hits and surely would have made my list. But, at which position would you put Molitor under? He played so many, and he went into the HOF as a DH. He's certainly the greatest DH if you ask me (if we include that on our lists).
Gwynn, was once an exceptional fleet-a-foot fielder and baserunner. But he didn't draw many walks, and he could have done so much more in his later years had he just took better care of his body. I would never take Gwynn over Frank Robinson. Robinson was on par with Aaron and Mays in many ways, but is often forgotten about (probably because he missed reaching 3,000 hits).
Brooks Robinson, like Ozzie Smith, is considered one of the greatest defensive specialists to have played the game. I'm not so sure he deserved EVERY one of his Gold Gloves, but nevertheless, he was the best at his position... for defense. His hitting though, not better than Boggs, Schmidt, Brett, or Matthews. And it's often said that Schmidt was just as good defensively as Robinson. Actually, though I do like Brooks Robinson, and he is a HOFer, aside from a couple very good years with the bat, he really wasn't a very good hitter.
A few guys I had left off the list, were Tris Speaker, Jeff Bagwell, Frank Thomas, Grover Alexander, Craig Biggio (who's still quite good), Greg Maddux, and although he's far from finished, Pedro Martinez (who's the best I've seen with my eyes to date). And I could go with Yaz over Henderson, but Rickey is Rickey!!!
Although it may look like I inserted Seaver for Spear, nope. Seaver was statistically the best pitcher of his era, and he didn't play for very good teams. Carlton, it can be argued, was just as good. And maybe that's true, but I think that Seaver is amongst the greatest ever.
It's difficult comparing players of different eras, because of the changes in the rules, or the mound. While Joe Morgan might agree with this, today's pitcher have MAJOR disadvantages compared to the pitchers from the '60s with the raised mound (hello Sandy Koufax and spacious Dodger Stadium), and although they aren't thought of to be as good as those from the '60s, I would disagree. But getting back to Seaver, he's amongst the elite (some will argue he's the greatest EVER). Nolan Ryan, great K's, great heat, played for a LONG time (which fans and sportwriters love), but IMO, not in the inner-circle of the elite. He may have been popular, and exciting, but I think he was overrated.
George Brett, personally, was greater for his team than Schmidt was for his. I know that may sound ridiculous, because I (and many people) think that Schmidt was THE best 3rd baseman. Why?
- Schmidt wasn't always easy to deal with. Moody, but it's hard not to be playing in Philadelphia (toughest crowd in sports... yes, moreso than Boston fans).
- Brett was the face of the KC Royals, Schmidt is just one of the faces of the Phillies.
- They both won Championships, but Brett's World Series dominance is far more memorable. He almost hit .400 in the early '80s!!!
- They were both drafted the same year, and Brett was actually picked ahead of Schmidt.
- Brett was a great leader. At least, that's the general perception.
But...
While Brett was a very good all-around hitter, Schmidt had exceptional power and plate discipline. Brett was a solid defensive player (Gold Glove level at various times), but he was notorious for looking-off and losing focus during a game, despite being ultra-competitive. Schmidt is compared to Brooks Robinson for being THE best defensive 3rd-baseman. It's often viewed that Schmidt and Morgan were the best players of their generation (in their respective leagues) between the Mays and Bonds eras. Hey, I like Brett over Schmidt myself, but I think that Schmidt was slightly better.
Okay, dUck, great feedback.
Spearmaster
Actually, he passed away on Jan 6th (yesterday)... another great man for the books.
My mistake, but we're both incorrect (lol). You're off by one lousy day. I'm off by over a month.
He had a stroke on December the 2nd, and he passed-away on the 5th of this month, in Glendale. I just checked-it-up at the USC site, your old stompin' grounds.
cont...
Will take issue with Rickey because, although a fantastic player, he had a bad attitude, especially when he was with the Mets I'd definitely have Yaz in his place.
I suppose at times, only Rickey likes Rickey. I get a kick out of him though. He's still trying to get back into the game. It must KILL him that Julio Franco signed a 2-year contract to play with the Mets this coming season. By the time his contract is through, he'll be 49!!! Like Rickey, great physical condition STILL... the Braves will miss him.
Spearmaster, c'mon, we can overlook one bad year with the Mets. It was towards the end of his career (assuming that he IS finished), and 1-year doesn't make a bad career. His first year, he was very good for them. Think of Willie with the Mets, or as you mentioned ealier, Duke Snider at the end of his career. Bobby Valentine wasn't showing Rickey any love...
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Last edited by johnsteed; 7th January 2006 at 06:36 AM.
Daffy (7th January 2006)
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I was just teasing...great game.
USC had a super run...34 in a row...one of the best all-time.
Concerning the USC wasted time-out...I think Texas fouled up...
Texas scored with 19 seconds left to take a 1pt lead...lined up for 2pt conversion...
It is possible that Vince Young (Texas) could have take the snap and run backwards until time had expired...
Wherever/if USC tackled him...would just be a botched conversion followed by a kickoff...USC might have got one play from their own twenty...
Another point...every time Young made big scramble yards was to his right...looks like USC would have tried a "spy" to that side...you can bet the pros will.
the dUck
Experienced Member
Aside from the absolute misery of missing the playoffs every damn year...it is heaven to have the Texas Rangers only 20 miles away...especially since inter-league play began.
I've seen alot of HOFrs (and soon to be HOFrs) "live" over the years...
George Brett was a one man wrecking crew to my Rangers.
Had season tickets on the 3rd base rail for three years...Buddy Bell was great for the Rangers.
Great thing about 3rd base seats...they were right by the visitors dugout...got a closeup visit with a lot of great players. Reggie Jackson was always very generous with his time at our park...especially with the kids.
Twice got seats behind home with Ryan pitching...the speed was unreal!!!
I swear the ball got bigger as it came in...optical illusion...I guess.
(These seats were gold!!! Almost impossible to get.)
I remember late one Wednesday afternoon...a vender called and said he had two tickets behind the Ranger's dugout if I wanted them. I said sure...but as it turns out we had other plans...I passed them on to a friend. Of course, this is the night Kenny Rogers pitches his "perfect" game...dammit.
Punchline...my friend passed the tickets on to his cousin...lol.
the dUck
johnsteed (7th January 2006)
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I passed them on to a friend. Of course, this is the night Kenny Rogers pitches his "perfect" game...dammit.
Now, that would have been something. Great story. You know what would been just as good though, the week or two after at Ameriquest Field, when he freaked-out on that camera-man. THAT would have been exceptionally fun to watch as well.
And on Brett's domination over your RANGERS, he certainly had the Blue Jays number as well.Geez, I wonder had the Jays won that series in '85, maybe Bobby Cox could have stuck around for a bit longer.
Great, great, rich, wonderful, colorful stories gents!
Steed
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Padding or no, those American football players are big and very athletic fellows, and I think they would probably give a good account of themselves, although it would be a bruiser of a game!
You don't see too much of "rounders" these days - almost all the play now is "softball". It was a great game, especially being able to nail a runner with a really hard stinger that not only put him out, but hurt him to boot! I wince even today at the pain of one guy who was hit in a very sensitive place (whilst batting - not running!)
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Cute idea, Daffy - you might well be right there, but can you see Vince Young backpedaling to waste time? I couldn't... LOL... he wanted to stick it to USC bad and he did it in fine style... he is a #1 draft for sure when he decides its time, and I bet that barring any bad injuries he will find himself a place amongst the all-time greats - or I could be wrong - but that performance in the 4th quarter was simply outstanding, even I didn't feel all that bad getting run over by Vince Young. Greased lightning would have been an understatement.
And as for running to the right - as I was telling someone else, everyone and his grandmother knew what was going to happen on that play - even SI said everyone in the stadium knew what would happen next - but USC did NOT hedge to his right even though they'd been burnt so many times, and yet again he ran right passed everyone without so much as a whiff of the defense being in the area.
That, sadly, was the one play the Trojan defense needed to get it right - and they blew it. A blitz was one possibility, hoping to force him to throw the ball - another one would have been to hedge to his right to make sure he had nowhere to go - and they sat back trying to play zone and got burnt.
This was almost as unforgiveable as trying to run up the middle on 4th and 2 - the essential Trojan play that EVERY team guards against, and you want to run through 4 high-draft NFL prospects? Not too smart, even if it WAS LenDale White. A sweep or even QB draw would almost surely have gotten them 2 yards... Leinart is no slouch, for crying out loud...
Ah well, that's life. I don't think the Trojans or the Trojan faithful will be crying too much over that game, it was truly Vince Young's day and the Trojans will be back again next year with an older and wiser defense
As for Carlton - I'll back down a bit on that one, after all he was with a nothing team for ages... and he WAS one hell of a pitcher. Same with Schmidt, who I'd rank up there with Pete Rose. And Pedro is also an amazing pitcher and very deserving, no doubt.
Seaver on top of his game was untouchable. He never hogged the limelight though, never played to the crowds, he was just a super workhorse who got the done job with amazing consistency. Had he been the live wire that some of the other candidates were, there is no doubt he would be #1 on many more people's lists.
George Brett is another great who belongs on the list. But I tend to agree with Steed's view - he had much better backup - given the same circumstances I also believe Schmidt would have been a shoo-in.
Dedeaux - my bad LOL. It was the 6th here in Bangkok when he passed away and I read the news on CNN... LOL...
Had Rickey retired after going to play cards in the clubhouse, I think he would probably still deserve to be on your lists - he was one of the most exceptional base-runners in the game - but the fact that he's STILL trying to stay in the game makes me feel like he's good for nothing else... and I still will never forgive him for that trip to the clubhouse during the playoffs, no matter how much I dislike Valentine.
All Blacks vs an NFL team?
One day this would be a great sight to see, I fully agree. It would be a high scoring game for sure - the football players will never know how to deal with the continuous flow of rugby - and they'd get penalized for spoiling the ruck every time... LOL... but the All Blacks will never, ever get used to have to dealing with a forward pass - someone like Vince Young would make them look totally foolish.
Size would not be a problem for the NFL players - but the All Blacks have speed as well as size, something most football players are not generally known for.
Rounders? We used to play Kickball... LOL... that's about as close to the same game as it gets... I used to be nicknamed "Lead Toe"... or, more accurately, "Led Toh"...
Daffy (7th January 2006)
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Dedeaux - my bad LOL. It was the 6th here in Bangkok when he passed away and I read the news on CNN... LOL...
Hahaha... I'm laughing because I've had that happen to me quite a few times. I forget sometimes that I'm the other side of the globe.
About Henderson, I can certainly understand how he undermined himself throughout his career. I know it bothered people then, and it still does today, when Rickey Henderson picked-up that 3rd base (that he had just stolen... a.k.a. stolen-base for those who don't know what that entails) a good 15-years ago, to eclipse Lou Brock's (who's a class act) record. To announce not only the crowd, but to stare directly at Brock (who was in attendance that day) while doing it, and to say his famous words "Today... I am the greatest!" Self-praising like only Rickey knows how to do. I still roll-over laughing whenever I see footage of that oh-so-memorable day.
Yup, it's easy to understand why people don't like him. I generally don't get too caught-up in who's good and bad in the realm of sports, as far as determining if they were worthy of being praised. In many people's eyes, Cal Ripken Jr. is viewed as an absolute saint, despite the fact that he was considered unapproachable and egotistical (off-camera). I guess what I like about Rickey, was that he never changed over the years, and he's the same guy all the time. His personality flaws are obvious, but we know he's not pretending to be someone he's not...
...AND if he were a S.F. Giant, and he pulled that World Series stunt with them, I'd likely dislike him too.
You mentioned Carlton, and while I love his numbers, especially that '72 season where he won 27 games, and the team had only won 64!!! I used to think that Carlton was the best pitcher of the last 30-years. But you know what, except for Clemens now (and where Pedro is headed), Seaver to me, was still slightly better. Carlton might have played for some pretty awful teams, but so did Seaver.
Steed
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Last edited by johnsteed; 7th January 2006 at 07:08 PM.
Daffy (7th January 2006)
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