My strange betting strategy in Craps works online. Is it casino-legal?

**crapsevangelist** · 21st June 2009, 12:58 AM

I've been playing around in a couple of the free craps sites just to test out a very strange betting strategy I've developed. It seems hard to believe (and it just may very well be only the luck of the draw) but I can't seem to lose money as long as I stick to this pattern. What I wanted to know from some experienced casino craps players if it's legal and if I could play it in a casino for real $$$.

Here is the strange strategy.

1) On the come out roll, I put a $1 bet on Pass AND Don't Pass.
2) I keep going until a point is made.
3) If the point is 5, 6, 8, or 9, I do nothing. Just sit back and enjoy the game.
4) If the point is 4 or 10, I Lay very heavily on those numbers.

I've checked the probabilities and there is no way I should be winning as much as I am. I'm averaging increasing my stake by 20% an hour.

So... is this just a statistical fluke that's going to catch up with me sooner or later, or is this feasible to play in a casino? And what is the pit boss going to say about the Pass AND Don't Pass bets?

Thanks in advance!

**Kenny Lingus** · 21st June 2009, 02:19 AM

There are basically two bet scenarios in play using this method. You are at a disadvantage at both, so your "winning streak" is just a statistical anomoly at this point.

The first scenario encompasses the pass/don't pass bets; here you must remember that although these bets seem to cancel each other out, you will lose half your total stake every time a twelve rolls on the come out, as this is considered a push for the don't pass wager, and a loss for the pass wager. This gives you a $1 loss for every $72 of bets, or a house edge of 1.39%

And no, it's not against the rules to place both wagers (has basically the same house advantage as playing only one of the two bets).

The second bet, the lay bet, is independent of the pass/don't bets. Looking at the Wizard of Odds site, it seems that the house edge on a 4 or a 10 here is 2.44%.

So, I think your strategy has just been lucky so far.

**lots0** · 21st June 2009, 04:10 AM

You might also note that most free craps games on the Internet do not operate exactly the same as the games in the online casinos that are played for cash, especially the Flash based games.

for your enjoyment... Free Craps Game

**AussieGambler21** · 21st June 2009, 10:30 AM

I am positive this strategy would be perfectly alright in the casino however having said that i do believe you are getting lucky. A suggestion maybe would be to deposit a small amount online and try and find the lowest stakes craps games you can find and see if your results continue.If they do then all the more power to you and if it doesn't then you wouldn't have lost much.

**crapsevangelist** · 21st June 2009, 03:13 PM

Kenny Lingus: Thank you for your reply. I am aware that placing both Pass and Don't Pass is not a wash but a loss on boxcars. The reason I was doing it was because I was under the (mistaken?) assumption that you could not Lay numbers without an active Pass or Don't Pass bet. I take it that is not the case, and I can just walk up to a table and just Lay?

lots0: Thanks for the link. That is a very nice game but unfortunately it won't let me bet Pass and Don't Pass at the same time.

Regardless, in just consistently Laying quarters while fading I made $500 in about 15 minutes. I acknowledge that Laying still always has a house advantage, but I guess I'm just on a streak!

Aussie Gambler: You're absolutely right about trying it out with a small stake online. Unfortunately I don't find any "fun" betting online and would rather go try my luck at the tables. Too bad that the closest craps table to me is a five hour drive away and the smallest bet is $5 which makes it pretty pricey to just experiment.

**crapsevangelist** · 23rd June 2009, 12:32 AM

Sorry for the BUMP. Can anyone tell me if it's casino legal to Lay numbers without an active Pass or Don't Pass bet? Thanks!

**Kenny Lingus** · 23rd June 2009, 01:35 AM

I believe it is, but don't quote me on that, as I never have personally placed a lay bet before.

However, there might be a better way to get the same action at a better payout, but you would most likely have to go to a brick & mortar casino to get this as I have never seen this bet offered on-line.

At most b&m casinos, the pass/don't pass player is allowed to place an "odds" bet behind his/her pass/don't bet once the point has been made. These bets pay TRUE odds; so hitting a point of 4 or 10 will pay 2 to 1 WITHOUT paying any vigorish or commission to the house. (Or, you have to bet 2 to win 1 if betting the don't pass line.)

The main restriction is that the odds bet will be limited to a multiple of the pass/don't bet; for example, 3x odds means that a $30 odds bet would be the max play with a $10 line bet.

Casinos allowing 3x to 5x odds bets are very common, but in Vegas you can find 100x if you look, and I have even heard of 1000x odds allowed!

This bet also has the advantage of being made or cancelled at anytime, unlike the line bet.

A line bet (pass/don't pass) comes with a house advantage of about 1.4%. But with a 100x bet behind it, the house advantage shrinks to below .02%!

I hope this helps.

**lots0** · 23rd June 2009, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by crapsevangelist

Sorry for the BUMP. Can anyone tell me if it's casino legal to Lay numbers without an active Pass or Don't Pass bet? Thanks!

Yes you can. Casinos do not require a Pass/Don't pass to place a wager on the numbers or any other table wager for that matter.

Originally Posted by crapsevangelist

lots0: Thanks for the link. That is a very nice game but unfortunately it won't let me bet Pass and Don't Pass at the same time.

Why would you want to do that?
If you bet on the Pass and then bet on the Don't Pass at the same time... The bets cancel themselves out.

**crapsevangelist** · 23rd June 2009, 08:38 PM

Thank you very much for the replies Kenny Lingus and lots0.

Here is my clarification:

Let's assume that I'm at a Bricks & Mortar casino where they are not going to enforce a $1 or 5% or whatever vig on a winning Lay bet. What I want to do is to only heavily Lay 4 and 10 and only at times when the point is anything other than 4 and 10. What I was trying to do with a small Pass and Don't Pass bet was to accept the boxcar loss just to keep some $ on the table so if the point turns out to be 5, 6, 8, or 9 for a few rolls the pit boss doesn't toss me out for not betting.

However, since most casinos do suck back some vig on Lays, IF I can find a casino with 5X odds (in my neck of the woods it's pretty rare) would I be better off to not Lay at all but just take maximum odds at all times on the 4 and 10 when they're not the point? If so, I'd pretty well have to bet Pass and Don't Pass all the time as (correct me if I'm wrong) I wouldn't be able to place a Don't Pass bet after the come out roll if I'm already on the Pass Line.

So let's take these two scenarios:

1) I have a nickel on Pass and a nickel on Don't Pass. Come out roll, point is 6. I now place a quarter on the 5x odds of the Don't Pass.

2) I don't have any Line bets at all but I just wait for the come out roll of 6, and lay a quarter on the 4 and 10

(I'm aware that the amounts are different, but let's just discuss percentages of win/loss)

Which one is the best bet from my standpoint and at the same time the worst from the house's? I would think it's #1 as there wouldn't be any vig and it's true odds. Am I correct, or am I missing something here?