Cake Poker and disconnect policies

[bgermain1985]

I have attached an email thread that I am currently dealing with Cake Poker support on. ( in backwards order, sorry)

Basically, it sums up to this.
I have a full house laid out against 2 flushes in a .50/1$ PL omaha/8 game with no low.

I have already bet $10 into this pot which is about 36$ at this point.
I still have 50$ behind me - and flush #1 bets 16 into me after checking my full house on the turn (board is KJAJ on the turn, with AA in my hand....)

I raise to 41$ and the application hangs, for about 20 seconds or so until my network re-establishes (wireless was being weird).

The game refreshes and said that I folded, when I finished inputing a Raise of 41$. It's not like I timed out on my action, but rather that the server gave up on my hand and never waited to get a response from the client.

As such, I lost out on 52$ pot plus up to another 80$ in equity.
Am I in the wrong with my expectations? If a player has money invested in the pot and commits an action through the client, what is a polite 'grace' period for the server to wait? I think PokerStars at least waits about 60 seconds for a reconnect when network hiccups occur, which is going to happen every now and again with wireless.



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[From Me]

To better explain the scenario, this was not an issue with the ISP, but rather the inconsistent nature of wireless play.

My action came to raise the player, and the client responded and displayed buttons for my available actions. When I clicked the button for the raise, the buttons disappeared and I waited for the screen to refresh.

After a short period (about 20 seconds or so), the screen refreshed and the chat log updated, showing that I had 'timed out' and my hand was folded.

As such, the scenario stands that the application allowed me to input my action but the server did not receive the request until after the initial 15 seconds for which the player himself has to commit the action. If a player has 15 seconds to act, it shouldn't be time to act + time to send message over the network.

This means that the server 'gave up' on my hand, when the client was trying to send the Raise action and the server did not receive the action. If the client timeouts out due to lack of player input, then the application is entitled to send a Fold action to the server. However, I do not think it is right that the server fold me immediately after the player's 15 second time window, when it has not received a response from the client.


I know I am not out of line with my expectations as many sites offer a chance to restore connectivity (about 60 seconds) when a player has invested in the pot and the server has not yet received an action from the client side.




[Support]

Hello Brandon,

Thank you for coming back to me.

Unfortunately we can not be held accountable for a disconnection due to your Internet Service Provider.

Whilst I appreciate that this must have caused grievance, we are not in a position to refund a player for something that we have no control over.

I will however pass your feedback to our development for them to review the disconnection policy.

Please let us know if we can be of further assistance

Kind Regards,

Tom

Cake Poker Support


[from Me]

What I am asking for is that your policy for connectivity and timing out be re-evaluated based on the player's activity in a given hand.

The purpose of the dollar amount is to convey the grievance this has caused me.


[Support]

Hello

Thank you for your email. Unfortunately we cannot compensate player's for a problems that they have had with there connection. I would recommend if you continue to have problems that you contact your service provider for a solution to your problem.

Please let us know if we can be of further assistance.

Kind Regards

Liam

CakePoker Support


[from Me]

Subject: Insufficient timeouts for ring games

During a wireless intermittency, I suffer a 130$ swing as I could not reraise in a multiway hand in .50/1$ PL omaha/8 where I clearly had the best hand.

I am so angry right now I can't even focus, is there any recourse for this?

AAA JJ with JJA on the board vs two flushes.

I can't believe that an untimely internet hiccup would cost me such a significant amount of money.

I had over 10$ already invested in the pot before the timeout. This is unbelievable.

[vinylweatherman]

20 seconds is not enough to cope with the internet. It IS their problem that their software does not properly take account of what is "normal" for the internet.

It's not even 20 seconds to reconnect, first you have to realise there is a problem.

This is not just a problem with Poker, there have been many complaints that the internet is not up to supporting the latest generation of multi-player games, and where they are "pay to play", customers are particularly aggrieved.

Far to often the gaming company seeks to pass the buck to the ISP, rather than take an interest in the problem itself. This attitude will cost them customers. It is THEY, a company with some "muscle" who should be leaning on the ISP industry to provide a better service. An ISP will generally brush off a complaint, blaming the game provider itself, or resort to "the internet in general" rather than their network in particular. This is designed to ensure the customer has no-one to seek redress from, since it is impossible to PROVE who was at fault.

It may NOT be YOUR wireless setup, or the technology, it could be a manufacturing defect, or your ISP. It could even be at the Poker operator's end, with THEIR ISP not forwarding the particular data packet that contained your raise instruction.

[zap987]

Pokerstars has 35 seconds from their FAQ, Cake Poker has 25 seconds.

I can't see why you would get angry at Cake Poker, the disconnection policy is right there to see, rather get angry at yourself for deciding to play poker on a wireless connection.

[bgermain1985]

Pokerstars has 35 seconds from their FAQ, Cake Poker has 25 seconds.

The 25 seconds should be after a player's normal action time has expired, not inclusive of it.

This means the server should wait 15 + 25 seconds, rather than 25 when the client will only wait for 15 seconds as allotted, once it has received a request for action.

Also, I find your wired vs wireless comment unnecessary. The point is there was a network hiccup, which can happen regardless of communication transport means.

[zap987]

Am I in the wrong with my expectations? If a player has money invested in the pot and commits an action through the client, what is a polite 'grace' period for the server to wait? I think PokerStars at least waits about 60 seconds for a reconnect when network hiccups occur, which is going to happen every now and again with wireless.



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[From Me]

To better explain the scenario, this was not an issue with the ISP, but rather the inconsistent nature of wireless play.

Sure any connection can have problems but the frequency is a lot higher for wireless which you seem to be very much aware of.

[bgermain1985]

I can't argue that point, I'm just saying that the situation is around a loss of connection, rather then the medium used - consider it more as a business use case.

I'd be lying to say wired is the same as wireless. However, as a service provider you can't assume a player will always be on a wired connection. I would go as far to say a player is MORE likely to be wireless than wired - thats the world we live in today.

[LinkinFart]

Should they increase their timeout period, they should.

Should you learn a lesson out of this, you should. I never used and will never use wireless connection for any transaction where money is involved whether it is a casino/poker or banking transaction. These incidents are not frequent but when they do happen they hurt.

[spiderlegz]

Cake doesnt have a timebank, just a FYI.

Have used WLAN myself almost exclusively for the past two years. Once had a disconnection due to WLAN, the others were for other reasons.

[vinylweatherman]

Should they increase their timeout period, they should.

Should you learn a lesson out of this, you should. I never used and will never use wireless connection for any transaction where money is involved whether it is a casino/poker or banking transaction. These incidents are not frequent but when they do happen they hurt.

MOST transactions involving money have been designed to be robust in the event of a connection failure. Money is not supposed to simply vanish, records are available to ensure the exact status of the transaction can be recovered, and the money restored.

It's more difficult with a muti-player environment, but policies should take account of the "real world" situation, rather than "laboratory conditions". I am using a WIRED connection, but I suffer many instances during the day where a response delay exceeding 25 seconds ocurrs. I have experienced this on this forum yesterday, and Facebook today. It is a COMMON problem. If the argument is that it isn't safe playing poker over the internet because it isn't reliable enough, then the Poker room are arguing their way into insolvency.

I play casinos, and at least the software here handles disconnects by keeping the game suspended until I can get back online and finish it, be that 25 seconds, 25 hours, or even 25 DAYS.

Poker software could get around this problem by allowing players to set up a default strategy to employ during a short term break in connection. This will operate for the rest of that hand in play, hopefully giving the player time to restore their connection. It won't help much for a long term disconnection, but would buy enough time to restore a brief interruption.

[bgermain1985]

I got an excellent response from Poker Stars, which clarifies how a similar situation would be handled:

"The exact time allotted depends on the situation; more time is given when
facing a big decision involving a large pot. The extra time given to
reconnect depend on the size of the pot:

0 sec if the pot is less or equal than 5 BB (big blinds)
15 sec if the pot is greater than 5 BB and less or equal than 10 BB
30 sec if the pot is greater than 10 BB and less or equal than 20 BB
60 sec if the pot is greater than 20 BB and less or equal than 40 BB
120 sec if the pot is greater than 40 BB and less or equal than 80 BB
240 sec if the pot is greater than 80 BB
"

This time is extra ON TOP OF the player's time to act and does not qualify should the player simply time out.

Furthermore, PStars offers a time bank on action for 30 secs initially plus 10 secs for each 50 hands played.


Clearly, pot size should matter when dealing with connectivity issues.
Some organizations are practicing it, and this is evidence of it.