What I've learn't about online poker software

**NASHVEGAS** · 15th August 2009, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by Kenny Lingus

I love the side of the argument that yells "you have no proof it's rigged!" when this issue comes up.

You are right. But none of you have any proof that online poker isn't rigged, either.

Statistically, you could set it up so that everything looked A OK, but in fact, the cards could be highly manipulated. So please don't suggest we "look at the numbers".

I, too, have seen way too many lucky "hits" to believe that the draw is not manipulated. But how, exactly?

To me, it seems that way too many times a poor play will rally to win, or an all-in showdown will turn on a one/two/three card out, or the hand will go back-and-forth two or three times, with both players hitting to (re)take the lead.

Just yesterday, in a tourney, I saw 4 jacks on the flop lose to a straight flush. Somebody (I forget whom) went all-in after the flop, and the winner hit runner, runner, to make a straight flush. Possible? Yes. But I have witnessed too many lucky hits to think that it's all "random".

I personally think that the draw is "JUICED". Once hole cards are established, the draw is allowed to make the hand "more interesting" more often than usual. This is not to say the "juicing" favors any one player over another.

This does two things - First, it gives the lesser player a chance to win more often, keeping the player and his action around. Second, it undoubtedly produces higher pots, and thus more rake.

Both of those are exactly what a poker site wants.

^DERAIL^-----Agree and a my own personal conclusion with reason of what is possible in BJ online.

Plus, I do have some screenshots from one software group that indicates "as is", their BJ is pre-determined. The way it was discovered, I would need a programming consultant at a minimum as I am not qualified to know if other poltergeist possibilities exist and would explain. Proof--been there,done that,never again so it never happened. I recently said "proof a'int easy"!! It's not!

Wonder why I basically stopped or have no desire whatsoever (tried) to play BJ online now which is the only game I have played in BandM's for 25 years. (I once played slots for 30 minutes).

Apologies,carry on

**BLUEWATER** · 15th August 2009, 07:40 AM

If those players think those sites are rigged then they shouldn't be playing at all. Normally most low stake table or tourney play like a donkey. They pretty much call with anything. I have my AA cracked every now and then. Like slow play with pocket AA. My mistake. I learn from it. It doesn't means it rigged.

**lots0** · 15th August 2009, 02:25 PM

If I was a poker room owner, I would rather have a table full of Sharks, as opposed to having a table full of Fish...

Sharks pay out far more in Rake than the fish do over time. Think about it, the Sharks goal and the poker rooms goal are the same.. to get the biggest pots possible.

So what would be the point of manipulating the RNG to help the fish? All you would do is drive the Sharks(your best source of steady income) to another poker room

As has already been pointed out, if a poker room wanted to cheat... the easiest way would be to just set up super user accounts that are able to view the hole cards... Like AP/UB did.

So I ask again... What would be the point of manipulation the RNG?

**lots0** · 15th August 2009, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by BLUEWATER

If those players think those sites are rigged then they shouldn't be playing at all. Normally most low stake table or tourney play like a donkey. They pretty much call with anything. I have my AA cracked every now and then. Like slow play with pocket AA. My mistake. I learn from it. It doesn't means it rigged.

lol When I've had AA cracked... I usually end up geting mad at myself for slow playing them...

Kenny - It is impossible to get 4 jacks on "The Flop". "The Flop" is only three cards.

**Keyser** · 19th August 2009, 06:39 AM

To start, no, I don't believe that poker sites are rigged in the way that has been described.

So far, all the arguments provided have been anecdotal mixed with conspiracy theory as to motive.

OK, having played a fair deal of low limit poker online and at B&Ms, my subjective anecdotal experience is that there is no appreciable difference between the two games. I have been on both sides of bad beats/suckouts in both settings on many occasions, and there is no appreciable difference in frequency on these occurences.

Now, what makes your subjective experience more valid than mine? I can flame just as loudly as anyone else (but I won't because that will violate the forum rules). That doesnt prove anything.

Does it make sense for a poker room to do this? Well, for one thing, its much easier to program a fair game than a non-fair game (BTW, I have a BA in Computer Science and was a programmer for a number of years). To program a fair game, you just need to generate an order for 52 cards based on a "random" number (more on that later), and then program the normal rules of poker. To program an unfair game, you need to either manually program a number of card sequences, factoring in how many hands are being played, and make sure you generate enough sequences so that it isnt noticable that the same exact hands keep coming up. Alternatively, you can come up with some very sophisticated algorithm to deal out certain cards based on various situations. Being able to generate something sophisticated enough to not be noticed would take many more hours than just programming a fair game.

Yes, there is no such thing as a "random" number generated by a computer, but the "random number" generators today are so sophisticated that no human could possibly determine a pattern. Furthermore, in a brick and mortar casino, the shuffle by hand or by mechanical shuffler is hardly "random". Just read about Blackjack players who can track cards despite shuffling to see the fallacy involved there. Consider that in a B&M casino, since people with bad hands will muck first and people with good hands will stay in the hands longer, good cards and bad cards will tend to clump together before the shuffle. If anything, a computer generated "Random number" is much closer to the real thing than mechanical shuffling.

So why do people think that online gambling is rigged. There are many reasons, but I will advance one reason that has been advanced many times before, but this does not make it any less true. People tend to remember bad beats and forget the "normal" hands. Furthermore, people aren't going to remember when they have pocket Aces and everyone mucked by the turn. They only remember the hands that go to showdown, and those are self-selected to have more suckouts.

When a person plays online poker, they see way more hands than in a B&M casino. Firstly, the gameplay is much faster. Secondly, they likely spend a lot more hours playing. Think about it. You plan a trip to Vegas, but how many hours are you actually playing versus travelling, eating, shows, etc. But online poker, people sit for hours and just play. Hungry? Just get something from the fridge and play. Something on TV? That won't stop you from playing at the same time.

When you see many more hands in online poker, you are going to experience more bad beats, and you are going to assume that there is something wrong with online poker as opposed to realizing that you've seen more bad beats because you've played more hands.

Finally, just remember, most B&M casinos have bad beat jackpots, and yes Virginia, they actually do pay them out on a regular basis.

**AussieGambler21** · 19th August 2009, 09:31 AM