What I've learn't about online poker software

[NASHVEGAS]

Originally Posted by Kenny Lingus

I love the side of the argument that yells "you have no proof it's rigged!" when this issue comes up.

You are right. But none of you have any proof that online poker isn't rigged, either.

Statistically, you could set it up so that everything looked A OK, but in fact, the cards could be highly manipulated. So please don't suggest we "look at the numbers".

I, too, have seen way too many lucky "hits" to believe that the draw is not manipulated. But how, exactly?

To me, it seems that way too many times a poor play will rally to win, or an all-in showdown will turn on a one/two/three card out, or the hand will go back-and-forth two or three times, with both players hitting to (re)take the lead.

Just yesterday, in a tourney, I saw 4 jacks on the flop lose to a straight flush. Somebody (I forget whom) went all-in after the flop, and the winner hit runner, runner, to make a straight flush. Possible? Yes. But I have witnessed too many lucky hits to think that it's all "random".

I personally think that the draw is "JUICED". Once hole cards are established, the draw is allowed to make the hand "more interesting" more often than usual. This is not to say the "juicing" favors any one player over another.

This does two things - First, it gives the lesser player a chance to win more often, keeping the player and his action around. Second, it undoubtedly produces higher pots, and thus more rake.

Both of those are exactly what a poker site wants.

^DERAIL^-----Agree and a my own personal conclusion with reason of what is possible in BJ online.

Plus, I do have some screenshots from one software group that indicates "as is", their BJ is pre-determined. The way it was discovered, I would need a programming consultant at a minimum as I am not qualified to know if other poltergeist possibilities exist and would explain. Proof--been there,done that,never again so it never happened. I recently said "proof a'int easy"!! It's not!

Wonder why I basically stopped or have no desire whatsoever (tried) to play BJ online now which is the only game I have played in BandM's for 25 years. (I once played slots for 30 minutes).

Apologies,carry on

[BLUEWATER]

If those players think those sites are rigged then they shouldn't be playing at all. Normally most low stake table or tourney play like a donkey. They pretty much call with anything. I have my AA cracked every now and then. Like slow play with pocket AA. My mistake. I learn from it. It doesn't means it rigged.

[lots0]

If I was a poker room owner, I would rather have a table full of Sharks, as opposed to having a table full of Fish...

Sharks pay out far more in Rake than the fish do over time. Think about it, the Sharks goal and the poker rooms goal are the same.. to get the biggest pots possible.

So what would be the point of manipulating the RNG to help the fish? All you would do is drive the Sharks(your best source of steady income) to another poker room

As has already been pointed out, if a poker room wanted to cheat... the easiest way would be to just set up super user accounts that are able to view the hole cards... Like AP/UB did.

So I ask again... What would be the point of manipulation the RNG?

[lots0]

Originally Posted by BLUEWATER

If those players think those sites are rigged then they shouldn't be playing at all. Normally most low stake table or tourney play like a donkey. They pretty much call with anything. I have my AA cracked every now and then. Like slow play with pocket AA. My mistake. I learn from it. It doesn't means it rigged.

lol When I've had AA cracked... I usually end up geting mad at myself for slow playing them...

Kenny - It is impossible to get 4 jacks on "The Flop". "The Flop" is only three cards.

[Keyser]

To start, no, I don't believe that poker sites are rigged in the way that has been described.

So far, all the arguments provided have been anecdotal mixed with conspiracy theory as to motive.

OK, having played a fair deal of low limit poker online and at B&Ms, my subjective anecdotal experience is that there is no appreciable difference between the two games. I have been on both sides of bad beats/suckouts in both settings on many occasions, and there is no appreciable difference in frequency on these occurences.

Now, what makes your subjective experience more valid than mine? I can flame just as loudly as anyone else (but I won't because that will violate the forum rules). That doesnt prove anything.

Does it make sense for a poker room to do this? Well, for one thing, its much easier to program a fair game than a non-fair game (BTW, I have a BA in Computer Science and was a programmer for a number of years). To program a fair game, you just need to generate an order for 52 cards based on a "random" number (more on that later), and then program the normal rules of poker. To program an unfair game, you need to either manually program a number of card sequences, factoring in how many hands are being played, and make sure you generate enough sequences so that it isnt noticable that the same exact hands keep coming up. Alternatively, you can come up with some very sophisticated algorithm to deal out certain cards based on various situations. Being able to generate something sophisticated enough to not be noticed would take many more hours than just programming a fair game.

Yes, there is no such thing as a "random" number generated by a computer, but the "random number" generators today are so sophisticated that no human could possibly determine a pattern. Furthermore, in a brick and mortar casino, the shuffle by hand or by mechanical shuffler is hardly "random". Just read about Blackjack players who can track cards despite shuffling to see the fallacy involved there. Consider that in a B&M casino, since people with bad hands will muck first and people with good hands will stay in the hands longer, good cards and bad cards will tend to clump together before the shuffle. If anything, a computer generated "Random number" is much closer to the real thing than mechanical shuffling.

So why do people think that online gambling is rigged. There are many reasons, but I will advance one reason that has been advanced many times before, but this does not make it any less true. People tend to remember bad beats and forget the "normal" hands. Furthermore, people aren't going to remember when they have pocket Aces and everyone mucked by the turn. They only remember the hands that go to showdown, and those are self-selected to have more suckouts.

When a person plays online poker, they see way more hands than in a B&M casino. Firstly, the gameplay is much faster. Secondly, they likely spend a lot more hours playing. Think about it. You plan a trip to Vegas, but how many hours are you actually playing versus travelling, eating, shows, etc. But online poker, people sit for hours and just play. Hungry? Just get something from the fridge and play. Something on TV? That won't stop you from playing at the same time.

When you see many more hands in online poker, you are going to experience more bad beats, and you are going to assume that there is something wrong with online poker as opposed to realizing that you've seen more bad beats because you've played more hands.

Finally, just remember, most B&M casinos have bad beat jackpots, and yes Virginia, they actually do pay them out on a regular basis.

[AussieGambler21]

Originally Posted by pissedoff

Ok..............let's get it out in the open. Poker software is NOT random. We all know it.

It is random but is played a hell of a lot faster then live poker so you are obviously going to see more bad beats then in a live game.In a live game you may only play about 30 hands/hour but in an online game you will play about 90 hands/hour so off course your going to see more bad beats which make it seem rigged but in reality is just the odds and cards taking its course.

Originally Posted by pissedoff

All the talk from poker sites about random number generators is bumpkin!!! They won't admit it......because it would seriously hurt their business. Random number shufflers are only required to perform what the software instructs.

They are not going to admit to something that is proven to be not true just because people like you can't accept that. Oh and by the way it's random number generators not shufflers and if you knew anything about the basics of poker software you would know that too regardless of how many years you claim to be a programmer.

Originally Posted by pissedoff

Poker software operates as a set of instructions. Whatever is written into the software, it will perform. It does not understand randomness, because true randomness cannot be written.For example, if I was to write into the program for AA to be successful only 33% of the time, that's what it will do. If i was to write in to the program that an allin bet will win 85%, that's what it will do. It doesn't matter what cards are against it, or what position you are in pre-flop, turn or river. The only time you can be sure that there is no more software interferance is after the river card.

Yes they could write scenarios like that into the software but once again why would they do that?They don't have anything to gain but a lot to lose if they did that.If i am playing you in a game of poker the online casinos (or any casino for that matter) don't care if i win or if you win as they make their money as a percentage from each pot.If i win they make a $1 or something like that from a $100 pot however if you win the same pot they make a $1 so regardless of who wins they still make money so why on earth would it be rigged?

Originally Posted by pissedoff

Poker software is a goldmine for poker sites. It is designed in a way to ensure that even the most inexperienced player can win. And that's what they want. If only good players won, then these sites would lose millions. Poor to average players would not come back. So in order to ensure a constant loyalty, the software will ensure for example, that AA is 'cracked' 77% of the time, depending on the instructions written into the software. For example, if I was the chip leader and had AA. I raise 3 times the big blind. A player with less chips, goes allin. Now you call. You find that the allin has KQ. What's the bet that KQ will beat you!

That's complete nonsense if it was designed for the most inexperienced player to win then they would be the professionals and be making a lot of money. Anyways how does the software know if you are inexperienced or not? I mean come on use your brain for once before making wild accusations.
As for your example its called GAMBLING! even though poker is predominately skill you will still occasionally lose with Aces, what do you expect to win everytime you got aces?If that was the case then there should be a new rule that Aces automatically win but that would be just stupid on the other hand i bet you don't complain when you have KQ and beat Aces oh no its not rigged then is it and you happily cash out thinking how great a player you are. I mean seriously if you go all in with Pocket Aces you don't want anyone to call?If you seriously think that then good luck to you in your poker career because you need it.

Originally Posted by pissedoff

How many times do you see an allin win with the worst card possible time and time again??? That's the software for you. Cards you see played online would hardly ever be played in live games. But because players see the most incredible' suck-outs' time and time again, players are willing to take a chance, relying on their knowledge of past experiences to put their tourney on the line.

No this comes down to psychology (another important factor in poker). You always always remember the bad beats more easily then the wins which makes it seems like those cards win all the time but in reality they don't. How many times have you made a bet and someone has folded, preflop or otherwise?Chances are they were holding those bad cards that apparently "always win"

Originally Posted by pissedoff

How many times do you see players call a big bet with nothing? So far behind that it is impossible to comprehend the madness. But they do, because they know that the software is very receptive to callers, allinners and players with less chips.

No that really only happens at low stakes (high stakes too but not as often) and that isn't because all people know about this "supposed software flaw" but because most people are amateurs with no understanding of strategy when it comes to poker and don't care if they lose a $1.50 or they are just plain gamblers.

Originally Posted by pissedoff

There are many hands I would never play online because you hardly ever win with them. Such as A10,Q10, K10 or anything with a 10 in it( Although I have noticed that if you have A10, it usually cames out a stra8). KJ, suited A rags, and to a lesser extent, JJ, 1010. There are just so many patterns associated with software interferance. And how many times have you noticed pocket pair protection????

If you never ever play those hands then no wonder you are always losing and what the hell is pocket pair protection????? I have played on heaps of sites in the past 3 years and never came across that feature once i mean seriously what site are you playing on???

Originally Posted by pissedoff

You can also see the software at work as the tourney gets nearer to the end, for instance, hands that were winning earlier, seem to lose more frequently and allinners won't win the high percentage as they used to.

No that's because by that stage the better players are winning and a lot of the amateur players, new players and just plain gamblers are generally out by that stage.

Originally Posted by pissedoff

So if you play online, in the low stakes range, you are really relying on the 'triggers' within the software to be in your favour. At the high end, players are unlikely to suffer as bad because they will respect position raises and strong play.

No trust me if they think you are a fish and not a strong player they will loosen up their hand selection considerably and won't respect you or your play and will play worse hands as well because they know your going to screw up sooner or later. Anyways just because its high stakes doesn't mean they are all great players and the play is going to be any better as there are plenty of fish out there with a lot of money to throw around who are more then willing to play any way they choose gambling or otherwise. Not many people change how they play but at one stage or another they will all go up or down in stakes at least sometime in their poker playing (especially after a big win) If you think you are going to win against experienced players in the long run because they "respect position raises and strong play" then either you dont know much about poker at all really or your ego is huge.

Basically your whole argument is made up of contradictions and no hard evidence.

[bcblack182]

OP:

Are you aware that pretty much all respected sites have had their random generator independently audited? You can find these audit reports on the poker websites.

Also if what you say is true we wouldn't have consistant winners and professional players. I have played probably 2 million hands in my career and I have steadily won over that time period. Everything about card distribution has seemed totally random to me.

Furthermore, with sites suchs as tableratings recording pretty much every hand played on the big sites, any non random pattern would be easily noticeable. Some players have databases containing millinos of hands of their own play and nothing suspicious has ever been found.

Clearly what you talk about is possible, but it is certainly not being done on any major site. I doubt it is being done on any small site. If anything, a small cheating site would rig the games in favor of a house player, rather than the weaker players.

[Kenny Lingus]

Blah blah blah, you are just a poor loser, blah blah blah, you must be a fish, blah blah blah, poker sites have no reason to cheat, blah blah blah, the random generator works just fine, blah blah blah, I could tell if the cards were not normal, blah blah blah, online you see more hands, blah blah blah, blah blah blah, blah, blah, blah.

Guess none of you heard about the Absolute poker scandal.....

Or did you have that site pegged, and just never played there?

Naivete is so cute!

[spiderlegz]

Originally Posted by Kenny Lingus

Blah blah blah, you are just a poor loser, blah blah blah, you must be a fish, blah blah blah, poker sites have no reason to cheat, blah blah blah, the random generator works just fine, blah blah blah, I could tell if the cards were not normal, blah blah blah, online you see more hands, blah blah blah, blah blah blah, blah, blah, blah.

Guess none of you heard about the Absolute poker scandal.....

Or did you have that site pegged, and just never played there?

Naivete is so cute!

Well its obvious you have only heard about it and not read about it.

It had nothing to do with a faulty RNG.

[XenoMorph]

Originally Posted by spiderlegz

Well its obvious you have only heard about it and not read about it.

It had nothing to do with a faulty RNG.

Correct!

The AP scandal was all about a admin account used to see the cards of all payers at the table.