I am more than 90% certain that all poker rooms are rigged

[kimss]

Originally Posted by pokeraddict

So if it isn't cards that are rigged you lost because of cheating shills. I think you have the right idea to quit poker. Good luck in your next journey.

Seems to me people are bashing the RTG software lately for being tight all over the place, and casinoes throwing money at you all the time. I would be surprised if the isnt something going on, and if on the slots on poker aswell since it's basically the same games/system controlling everything. It's just like on slots after great wins the whole casino - including all games, get's sucky sucky!

Oh well, well never agree before we have some great stats to show for... Time will come!

[pokeraddict]

I think you miss the point that affiliates on MGR plans with poker rooms are not paid on how much a poker player loses, they are paid on a % of rake. It would actually be to the affiliate's benefit for their players to win because winning players will almost always generate more rake then losers. It likely takes 20 or so casual players to generate the same rake in a month that a full time pro generates.

[swampwitch]

Thodoris...

You have convinced yourself that there are conspiracies upon conspiracies working against you. You absolutely refuse to even consider the possibility that you may not be the expert player you believe you are, and there is no argument that will convince you otherwise. Your arguments are fractious and based on ego instead of logic. Being wordy and repeating things ad nauseum is not compelling proof.

Besides all else, I also questioned you all that it is a bit strange that an affliate who takes 30% of the profits made by the pokeroom of a casino can also be a poker player to that casino. It is like having the casino also as a player.

Now this is just plain stupid. You seem to believe that being an affiliate predisposes the pokerroom to show an advantage to me as a player, thereby making me want to promote the room all the more, thereby bringing in even more players for me to make your mythical 30%. Let me put that to rest once and for all. I am...at my very best...an almost sickeningly average player. If the pokerrom was going to show me favoritism, I'd be winning left and right. I do not. If I promoted the rooms based on how much money I win playing...I wouldn't be promoting any of them.

For once and for all...no one is out to get you. You are losing because you play a rigid and anally retentive strategy. You play with no room for the variables that come with playing against human beings. If an average player like myself can see that, why can't you, Brain Trust?

I'm out..you can't debate teflon.

[Keyser]

I was going to try to aswer all of these conspiracy theories, but they are so rambling and incoherent, that I dont see the point. I think the OP may be suffering from a manic episode, with his rambling and incoherent posts followed by self-satisfaction that they have proved their point beyond a doubt.

However, if the OP really wants someone to analyze what is going on when he plays, why not just post complete hand histories. This way, everyone else can analyze his play and see if his argument has any merit.

[GaryWatson]

Ok I am an affiliate for some sites that I play at. I dont receive a percentage on my own rake. It is against their Terms.

When I do play, I can assure you I get some terrible beats like everyone else. Poker is just like that.

As for the shills argument, sure there will be. I dont see that as cheating. If they offer a player rake free play to boost the numbers at the tables or get a new table, fine. If these players are top pro's and are kicking my ass, I have the option to up and leave the table

Yes I would be a little uncomfortable if a few employees where sitting at a table with me looking at each others screens. Yes that could be a possibilty but it is easily detectable. Ive had my suspicions with certain players. I just collected my chips and left the table. This does not have to be employees of the site, It could be anyone. I will assume that employees have more to do with their time than scam a few dollars off the players but im not saying it definately doesnt happen but I will say you must be very unlucky to catch them amongst thousands of players every time you log on.

As for seeing hole cards

http://pokeranon.com/seeing-tables-hole-cards.html

This shows how it is done. Now for a site to be able to see the hole cards they need to instal the software on someones PC. it would be easy enough to do but again it would be easy enough for a programmer or watchdog group to detect, so I dont consider that a possibility either.

As for getting crazy rake generating beats. These beats affect everyone. The best way for a site to increase revenue/rake is to keep the players playing, make the game very predictable. This allows the house to slowly collect the rake from all players. A $10k hand only generates $3 rake - A $100 hand creates $3 rake. The $10k hand will probably bust a couple of players, whereas the $100 hands will keep them in the game only to pay the site $3 a hand.

I am not saying there are not some underhand tactics at some poker sites but I would say your statistical argument is a little flawed

[pokeraddict]

As for the shills argument, sure there will be. I dont see that as cheating. If they offer a player rake free play to boost the numbers at the tables or get a new table, fine.

These are props. Almost all poker rooms use props. Props play with their own money and simply get their rake back or some other compensation.

Shills are house players that play with house money and simply fold virtually every hand. Both help to start games.

[Zoozie]

And I am certain only 10% of online poker players are long term winning players, so it is not as easy as you seems to have the impression of.
And I am 100% certain most pokersites are not rigged - I have full confidence in all the big software providers, but if you decide to play
at some Russian site with unknown software, well...

And unless you drastically changes you view of poker and your playstyle, you will never be a winning player - even at a non-rigged site.

1) First of all you have obviously not read any serious books about poker.
Start reading (and understanding) 5-10 books mostly from twoplustwo. Mix
strategy (NL/FL), poker psychology and general poker books.

2) Learn the general HU match probabilites. (Ie. AKs wins 67% vs. 32o) and all draw probabilites (ie. flush draw over 1 card, 2 cards etc.) + learn pot odds and implied odds.

3) Use Pokertracker or PokerOffice etc. After each session analyze the hands with the biggest pots (winning+loosing pots) and see if you did anything wrong.

4) And in NL it is very important so also know your opponents, are you watching them and making notes on them?

5) Never tilt. Learn to deal with the bad days that all poker players have, so it also does not ruin your private life. Also never go up in limit and give it lose it all fast. Learn how to manage your poker bankroll.

When you have done all this, start at the 20$NL and see if you can consistently win at this limit. If you are a winner over 25K hands, you can move up to 50$ etc.

So how many of the steps I described did you follow?

Zoozie

[ThodorisK]

And I am certain only 10% of online poker players are long term winning players, so it is not as easy as you seems to have the impression of.

Of course it would be a small percentage, otherwise who's money were the good players going to take? (if of course the casinos let some players win constantly without cheating them).

I have already commented about this 100% certainty of you people that large, reputable casinos never cheat. I don't want to say the names of the 3 rooms I think I was cheated, but they are very large casinos and I think they are considered reputable. I dont want to say the names because I think casinomeinster does not allow this, and anyway, if these 3 casinos cheated me, I think all big casinos do, except, pehaps, very-very few exceptions.

Yes, I have done all the playing advice you say, with even less money than 20$.

No, I havent use Pokertracker, as casinos could cheat me rarely enough for not leaving any statistical evidence, but enough to eliminate and exceed the small edge I could have after the rake. If one has a 3% edge after the rake, then a cheating of 3 times out of 100 cannot be prooven statistically.

I am not going to spend more money to test the honesty of pokerooms. Perhaps when and if I will be rich, I will experiment again at the very low limit tables. Neverthelss, in the meantime, I might play (more to test them than to win) some bonuses which bring down the rake below 4% (below 3% if possible). I am reading pokeraddict's page to find a bonus which brings down the rake below 3%. But I don't trust online poker anymore and I doubt if I play again even if the rake was zero.

I am telling you that I leave a 10% probability that I was not cheated and simply it was variance and bad play. But you are trying to convince me that I should give 100% probability that I was not cheated. I find this amusing! Sorry, but I would be an idiot if I give less than 50% probability considering all the things I observed and all other considerations I previously analyzed.

And when I continued playing, I was playing while knowing that the probability that they cheat is 90%. But I invested in this 10% probability, as if this 10% was the case, and I am as good player as I think I am (and anyway I could improove), then I would head up towards infinite profit, as anyone who has an edge in any game and knows money management and risk of ruin probabilities as I do.

I am not trying to impress you with my knowledge and capability of analysis.
It is not my purpose to earn admiration. What I am trying to do is to humbly reveal some of my knowdege in order to simply produce evidence for my arguments, to warn naive players, to give out knowledge and perhaps gain some knowdedge form some people. But if I dont reveal e.g. to a mathematician that I know mathematics, how would I expect him to reveal something unknown to me? He would not discuss mathematics with a monkey.

I do not want to discuss any more if pokerooms are cheating or not, as I think the matter is exhausted, as it cannot be prooven with a more than 95% certainty that they cheat or that they do not cheat.

And as some of you disallowed me to start a new thread, you do not allow me to discuss other topics which might interest you and your pocket.

[SlotsWizard]

Originally Posted by ThodorisK

it cannot be proven with a more than 95% certainty that they cheat or that they do not cheat.

You hit the nail on the head with that statement.

For some reason this reminds me of those who believe in ghosts vs. those who do not. People from both sides of the issue have already made up their minds about it and will never see eye-to-eye on it, unless they experience something really weird.

In the same way that something "really weird" could be described as supernatural, it could also be described as a natural phenomenon. Likewise, strange bad beats in online poker could be described as being rigged, but could also naturally be that 1 in 100,000 chance - and both sides will never know or agree upon the true cause.

[lots0]

I am not trying to impress you with my knowledge and capability of analysis.

Good, because you didn't even come close to impressing me, as a matter of fact my thought process was going the other direction from "impressed".

@ThodorisK

Your logic is about as flawed as I have ever seen.

If one has a 3% edge after the rake, then a cheating of 3 times out of 100 cannot be prooven statistically.

it sure can, you math genius you, we are not talking about one hundred hands, we are talking about 100's of thousands, even millions of hands (in case you forgot your not the only person playing).

Your ideas about Affiliates are also so wrong, so juvenile, reading them has made me laugh really hard. (and I feel like shit... I'm sick)

ThodorisK from one Poker Affiliate (Thats me) directly to you...

"STOP PLAYING POKER!"

No one likes a whiny poker loser...