eCOGRA needs to make a decision about JACKPOT FACTORY... NOW!!

[mrracetrack]

After more than 3 days of people showing all the ridiculous and sleazy links to ALLSLOTS casino... and the GM of JackPot Factory doing little to nothing about this after promising he would... and the Casinomeister now having ROGUED this group...

eCOGRA needs to step up and deal with this... TODAY!!

Not "next week"... or next month... NOW!!

If eCOGRA ever expects to have ANY credibility... an official decision by them is necessary NOW.

Perhaps eCOGRA can also respond to this:

Posted by RobWin

1. What in the hell is eCOGRA actually approving their seal at these casinos for? ie; Integrity; Safe site; Consistent payout; Responsible operator conduct.


2. Does eCOGRA not actually do web searches of the casino before they are getting ready to approve for seal just to check and make sure that the casino site or web searches are not advertising this BS?


3. Does eCOGRA not ever police or follow up on searches to periodically check in on the sites that they have seal approved?


4. Does eCOGRA give seal approval and then never check on casino unless some issue is raised?


5. What do they do the rest of the day? LOL

Posted by Pinababy

Not Impressed With ECogra

------------------------------------------

Well, it is now almost midday in the UK, and no statement and no action by ECogra. I suppose the next excuse will be that it was the weekend, and no one was available. I addressed that very issue in one of my emails to them.

More disturbing to me is that every link that I sent to them from yesterday on (at their request) are still active, including the one referring to people who are suicidal finding solace in slot machines.

I don't know how the rest of you feel, but my patience is about coming to an end. I really think they have had ample time to deal with this, and come to some sort of conclusion, whatever that may be. I mean, come on, this isn't the US Congress, where every decision made or bill passed has to go through a 100 stages. Neither is it rocket science.

Waiting, watching.....toe tapping.

eCOGRA has a golden opportunity here to show what they are made of...

One way or the other...

 

[Pinababy69]

Tell us how you really feel MrR.....

I gotta say I agree with you 100%. Over the last few months I have noticed posts regarding ECogra that questioned their integrity, and what it is that they actually stand for. I supported them, because I wanted to believe that they were not going to be just another Kahnawake clone. I wanted to believe that they actually gave a shit about the industry as a whole. I wanted to believe they could make things better for everyone, casinos and players alike.

I agreed with them on the Bella Vegas decision, I wasn't sure about the site scraping issue and I hadn't really formed a decision as yet in regards to them advertising gaming portals on their website. But this issue with Jackpot Factory? NO GREY AREA HERE...this is a black and white case. As Simmo mentioned in one of his posts, this is the one issue that has everyone here at CM in total agreement. I am not sure if this has ever happened before. That's how cut and dried this is.

What could possibly take three days to come to a decision? And even more disturbing is that THOSE LINKS ARE STILL ACTIVE. Even after I have drawn attention to them. And my emails have been acknowledged, so they are fully aware of them. This can only lead to one conclusion. In their minds, this issue is not serious enough to warrant immediate action.

The casino should have spent whatever it took, and had all necessary employees available 24/7 to deal with this. And ECogra should have seen to this, whatever it took.

The casino has failed miserably. ECogra has failed miserably. The online gaming industry has taken a step backward IMO.

Should ECogra fail to issue some sort of statement by end of business day, they are sadly no better than Kahnawake, and any faith I had in them to change things is gone.

 

[unicorn40]

eCOGRA has a golden opportunity here to show what they are made of...

One way or the other...

I think they are showing that at the moment.They should have done something by now or said something...They're real quiet.....and what Jackpot Factory did was just sickening.

 

[Simmo!]

eCOGRA has a golden opportunity here to show what they are made of...

I agree. Will be interesting.

 

[texas hooters]

WOW I need to get out more ! I had no idea this was going on. Another group bites the dust for me. Sheesh I am running out of places to play !

 

[GrandMaster]

I think they are showing that at the moment.They should have done something by now or said something...They're real quiet.....and what Jackpot Factory did was just sickening.

They are busy reviewing the situation and undoubtedly hoping that it will just blow over.

 

[spearmaster]

They are busy reviewing the situation and undoubtedly hoping that it will just blow over.

I don't think they are hoping it will just blow over - this is too serious a situation for it to go away just like that.

I would like to see a quick response too - but one must also understand that they cannot afford to take a misstep at all under the circumstances - better to get it right the first time than to do the knee-jerk and inadvertently say something wrong or take the wrong action.

 

[Slotster!]

I agree Spear, they should definitely make the correct and considered response.

That said, this issue was posted originally on 30th May 2006, 03:45 AM (UK Time) and, were my 'seal of approval' on their website, I would've made a statement by now - even just to reassure the public at large we were 'dealing with it'.

With silence, people will always fear the worst/draw their own conclusions.

 

[mrracetrack]

???

Posted by Spear:

I would like to see a quick response too - but one must also understand that they cannot afford to take a misstep at all under the circumstances - better to get it right the first time than to do the knee-jerk and inadvertently say something wrong or take the wrong action.

Spear... do you really think that eCOGRA has any option other than condemning ALLSLOTS & JACKPOT FACTORY after the way that they have dealt with this?

eCOGRA will lose any and all credibility they might have at this point, should they not "do the right thing" and cancel the seal, and condemn this group for the ridiculous and sleazy marketing of their casinos that they attempted to get away with.

JackPot Factory obviously knew what they were doing. If they "really" were that stupid and claim to deny knowing all about this sleazy marketing of their casinos... then they would deserve to be booted from eCOGRA for being "just incredibly clueless".

Why would eCOGRA want to give a seal to morons?

 

[Webzcas]

eCOGRA will lose any and all credibility they might have at this point, should they not "do the right thing" and cancel the seal

This is exactly what I have told Andrew in both my emails to him concerning this. I am like you all awaiting their public response which I hope will be this afternoon.

 

[jetset]

I doubt whether it will be this afternoon, and in any case I am with Spear here - better a cooly considered and legal reaction than a rushed and possibly botched effort which would be welcomed only by the organisation's opponents.

This is not a webmaster arbitrarily calling the shots as is his or her absolute right on their own property, but a legally constituted and internationally active company in a position of authority over another company and considering a possibly punitive action that may have serious legal and business consequences.

I have just called Andrew, who btw has been trying to deal with this and board meetings in addition to his normal job and leading a tough training session on (ironically) Responsible Gaming.

Believe me, he is well aware of the situation and is monitoring it closely, at the same time taking the procedural steps that are required in terms of eCOGRA constitutional and legal advice.

Apparently the immediate and arbitrary pulling of a seal is not quite as simple and straightforward as posting "just take their seal". Seals can be revoked, no question - but the lawyers say that procedures and justice must be properly served.

In a justifiably superheated atmosphere such as this, an instant reaction would be more to the liking of everyone. I share the views expressed by many here regarding JF's debacle and the fact that it has still not pulled down all of this contentious rubbish.

But eCOGRA does not have the luxury of the individual in simply joining in the general clamour before it has its ducks in a row.

I am informed that the proper legal procedures that need to be followed in these circumstances where a withdrawal or suspension of the eCOGRA seal is contemplated, have to follow the legal procedures of English Law (where eCOGRA is based) and the principles of *natural justice* (because it is applied to companies not necessarily falling under English jurisprudence).

The following must take place before a seal can be withdrawn:

(i) the eGAP rules are clear and unambiguous;

(ii) a person or entity is given a chance to rectify any shortcomings or non-compliance;

(iii) the natural justice rules are followed in relation to disciplinary proceedings; and

(iv) the eGAP and natural justice rules are consistently applied on a
case to case basis.

The three cardinal rules of natural justice are:

1. A person or entity has the right to know the case against him. This typically requires:

. adequate notice of the allegations
. adequate notice of the hearing
. adequate notice of the procedure for determining the alleged breach(es)

2. A person or entity must have a fair opportunity to answer the charges and
present his own case.

3. A person has the right to a decision from an unbiased decision-maker.

eCOGRA may well make a statement, but it is unlikely that this will happen until Andrew and the independent directors are satisfied that the legal requirements of starting the process have been complied with.

I can understand anger and disgust at this issue making posters impatient, and I can understand some of eCOGRA's critics trying to make the most of it but is an immediate statement really critical here, and should eCOGRA be discredited because it hasn't burst into print yet?

Andrew has assured me that things are happening, assisted by those of you who have been sufficiently committed to the issue to communicate with Andrew and send him examples of the offensive material.

There's no way this thread or the main one elsewhere here will be allowed by any of us to fade away, so why not give eCOGRA the space to do things properly?

 

[Pinababy69]

Jetset, thank you for posting that. In a roundabout way, it sounds like a statement from ECogra. At the very least, it explains their procedures to those of us not familiar with them.

I'm willing to give them time to do what they have to do. What I'm NOT willing to do is ever let this issue die until it has been resolved one way or another, and until every single one of those offending links is removed.

 

[jetset]

Please do not get me wrong, Pina. This is NOT an official eCOGRA statement, nor am I an eCOGRA spokesman.

My intention in posting the fruits of a long conversation with Andrew this afternoon is purely to inform the members of this board on matters of fact and perhaps explain why instant gratification is not always possible no matter how desirable that may be in some cases.

This issue is definitely receiving attention, as I am sure will become apparent when eCOGRA decides it is time to make it's official comment.

 

[Pinababy69]

Please do not get me wrong, Pina. This is NOT an official eCOGRA statement, nor am I an eCOGRA spokesman.

My intention in posting the fruits of a long conversation with Andrew this afternoon is purely to inform the members of this board on matters of fact and perhaps explain why instant gratification is not always possible no matter how desirable that may be in some cases.

This issue is definitely receiving attention, as I am sure will become apparent when eCOGRA decides it is time to make it's official comment.

I didn't mean to imply that you were Jet. I only meant that it gave us some insight into the inner workings of the organization, and given your conversation with him, some assurance that this is being looked after. Nothing more, sorry for the wrong use of wording. This is really getting to me in case you can't tell.

 

[jetset]

No problem, as long as my point is clear.

I am as angry as you are at this nonsense because it casts the industry in such a bad light as well as targeting totally inappropriate and vulnerable audiences.

And I certainly join you in having no intention of letting the issue die a quiet death.

But I continue to support what eCOGRA is trying to do, and it is important for members to realise that we're not talking here about an anonymous individual with a personal opinion, or a webmaster on his or her own turf; eCOGRA has to act in terms of its constitution and legal advice.

It is not fair or sensible at this stage to discredit or decry the organisation for doing so.

 

[spearmaster]

Spear... do you really think that eCOGRA has any option other than condemning ALLSLOTS & JACKPOT FACTORY after the way that they have dealt with this?

To be perfectly frank - no. But there is still a procedure they have to go through as Jetset has illustrated above and like it or not, we have to respect those procedures.

eCOGRA will lose any and all credibility they might have at this point, should they not "do the right thing" and cancel the seal, and condemn this group for the ridiculous and sleazy marketing of their casinos that they attempted to get away with.

I'll reserve judgement until they make their stance known. But if Jackpot Factory thinks they can get away with a slap on the wrist, they have another think coming.

 

[nielsenj]

Let us give eCOGRA time of make the right decision with regards to Jackpot Factory. To expect a decision in the Jackpot Factory case in only three days is unfair and unrealistic. eCOGRA has procedures to follow (thanks for outlining them, Jetset) and it would surprise me if we are not talking weeks rather than days until we get a responce from eCOGRA. Honestly, I do not care if it takes weeks or days as long as the right decision is made.

As far a I know this can be the first time eCOGRA removes a seal. Just as a court that is about to make a decision on new legislation, a decision from eCOGRA with regards to stripping the seal from Jackpot Factory will have consequenses not only in this case but also for similar cases in the future. It is therefore wise for eCOGRA to think the case through before they make a decision.

I am as just as appalled as the rest of you with what it have read in the Jackpot Factory thread. eCOGRA approved casinos are supposed to make honest advertising and behave responsibly. It is hard to see hard this standard being upheld at Jackpot Factory and is is hard to see how eCOGRA can justify Jackpot Factory an approved casino.

 

[GrandMaster]

To be perfectly frank - no. But there is still a procedure they have to go through as Jetset has illustrated above and like it or not, we have to respect those procedures.

I'll reserve judgement until they make their stance known. But if Jackpot Factory thinks they can get away with a slap on the wrist, they have another think coming.

I agree that proper procedure has to be followed, but if the police have evidence that you have committed a crime, you can be arrested and held in custody until the trial, or a probably better analogue is that if you are suspected of misconduct at work, the normal procedure in the UK is that you are suspended on full pay while the investigation is carried out. I don't understand why ecogra could not suspend Jackpot Factory casinos pending a full investigation.

 

[spearmaster]

I agree that proper procedure has to be followed, but if the police have evidence that you have committed a crime, you can be arrested and held in custody until the trial, or a probably better analogue is that if you are suspected of misconduct at work, the normal procedure in the UK is that you are suspended on full pay while the investigation is carried out. I don't understand why ecogra could not suspend Jackpot Factory casinos pending a full investigation.

Point taken. And I would agree that the evidence is, to say the least, overwhelming... but Andrew still has a board to answer to so he may not be empowered to even suspend without a vote being called first, and that would likely require at least a conference call when all of them can be present.

 

[soflat]

To me eCogra is an irrelevant entity.

Casino Meister rogued them and that is good enough for me.

 

[Scooter7]

This issue affects more than just one bad apple

If, after the dust clears, it's proven that a casino operator can get away with unscrupulous behaviour, then the anti-online gaming crowd will have some serious ammunition to fire at the whole industry...not just the unethical operators.

If, on the other hand, a strong, enforceable ruling that makes an example of poor behaviour is delivered, then the pro-online gaming supporters will have an important victory. It will prove that the industry is pursuing an aggressive self-regulating reputation and that further regulation will lead to a strong, ethical, and trustworthy industry.

I think this story, if properly spread to the mainstream media, can have a huge negative or positive impact on good and bad operators alike depending on how the issue is resolved.


Comments?

 

[GrandMaster]

Point taken. And I would agree that the evidence is, to say the least, overwhelming... but Andrew still has a board to answer to so he may not be empowered to even suspend without a vote being called first, and that would likely require at least a conference call when all of them can be present.

There is also e-mail. Even if a conference call is necessary, it is hard to believe that the have not had time to have one in 4 days. Remember, this is a major scandal. If they are all so busy with other things, then maybe they should not be directors of ecogra. If compliance with English law is so cumbersome, they could have specified that disputes will be settled under Costa Rican law or Saudi Arabian law or whatever.

Frank Catania was Director of New Jersey Division of Gaming Enforcement. If a casino in Atlantic City had displayed a billboard claiming that gambling cures depression, would he have asked the casino to take it down immediately, or would he have filed a lawsuit for lawyers and expert witnesses to argue the benefits of gambling in treating depression, and wait for the outcome months or years later? Regulatory agencies, which ecogra claims to be, have to act quickly sometimes. Then there may be an appeal, probably through the regulatory agency's internal procedures first and then to the courts.

I did not expect ecogra to make a final decision in four days, but I expected them to do something visible, and to keep us informed.

 

[unicorn40]

I did not expect ecogra to make a final decision in four days, but I expected them to do something visible, and to keep us informed

Exactly GrandMaster.......and links people are still finding is just so sick.......What the hell was this place thinking? This is disgusting that a casino would post this crap and after all of this, STILL have posts there.....

 

[jetset]

If, after the dust clears, it's proven that a casino operator can get away with unscrupulous behaviour, then the anti-online gaming crowd will have some serious ammunition to fire at the whole industry...not just the unethical operators.

If, on the other hand, a strong, enforceable ruling that makes an example of poor behaviour is delivered, then the pro-online gaming supporters will have an important victory. It will prove that the industry is pursuing an aggressive self-regulating reputation and that further regulation will lead to a strong, ethical, and trustworthy industry.

I think this story, if properly spread to the mainstream media, can have a huge negative or positive impact on good and bad operators alike depending on how the issue is resolved.


Comments?

I think this is one of the most rational and even-handed posts in this thread so far, Scooter.

I agree this incident portrays conduct that on the face of it is so unethical and downright stupid that it could be tremendously damaging to the industry as a whole if taken up by the mainstream media, despite the fact that it has been perpetrated by a single group. The very nature of the targets would ensure notoriety imo.

Those who want to see a better industry must hope that eCOGRA defends its standards by taking considered, appropriate and fair action.

 

[mitch]

I will refer only to the eCOGRA issue here.

Much as I would like them to come out and declare and confirm what scum this group is, they have to be careful.

They could be open to serious legal action by this group if they :-

1. Get it wrong. (not likely!)

2. Reach and declare judgement without demonstrable consideration, which obviously includes giving the group time and opportunity to respond to all allegations. ( I know members are anxious to proceed to the execution but the knitting will have to wait for a while!)

Mitch

 

[vtlady]

eCogra

I have been trying to tell you that the eCogra approved casinos have the eCogra Board in their pockets. Have any of you checked out the members of the eCogra Board and their affiliations to the approved casinos and software companies? They are all connected in someway that benefits each of them.

 

[rtmlam]

To me eCogra is an irrelevant entity.

Casino Meister rogued them and that is good enough for me.

I agree, eCogra is nothing more than a "rubber stamp" in my book. The eCogra seal is not going to sway any decision on my part with regards to which casinos I may choose to play. I will make this decision based on my own research utilizing forums such as the Meisters and the feedback, experiences of other members. While I agree they need some time to properly investigate any allegations, foot-dragging only further damages their credibility when these types of blatant misconduct are not addressed promptly. At the least make some type of statement that the matter is being addressed. Has this at a minimum been done ?

 

[The Watchdog]

Tears are coming out of my eyes

MORE HAPPY I CAN NOT BE...

I dunno what happened or where was I yesterday that I had not read this amazing thread.

I remember the day I learned about eCogra as if it was the day I lost my virginity.... I can't recall on which site it was were I saw there stamp. It was the Riverbelle or 7 Sultans. (Riverbelle is great) (7 Sultans, no further comments)

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

The page above was little bit different of what is now days when I first read it.

The first time I read that, my reaction was: DAMN... GOOD FOR THIS PEOPLE.. THEY WILL PROBABLY STOP A LOT OF COLD-HEARTED MF'S OUT THERE...

Any ways, some time went by and at some moment my job was very related to check out competition sites to see what they offered, how they worked and trying to stay one step ahead of them. Through the millions of sites I researched a lot had the nice eCogra logo. At some point I remember telling my boss.. Hey: why aren't we endorsed by those guys.. it provides security and shows that our site is good... Honestly I don't remember what he said about it.

After reviewing some sites, I learned that some of them did not honored their promotions, delayed payouts with no excuse, in brief tons of things that were written on the website above were not being honored. After a while I got the feeling that these eCogra guys were nothing but some guys saling a logo.

I am going to be honest. I have nothing bad to say about Mummys gold. Darran the guys who posts here has been nothing but nice to me and has showed that Mummysgold runs a decent and honest operation. You can see Mummysgold still on the meister's acredited page.

Anyways, something happened with mummysgold which was not nice and made me file a complain to eCogra. What later happen is that Darran told me that there were some things they did not expect what happen with a certain promotion which brought tons of activity to them and told me that he was working on all this to satisfy everyones demands. As you may see, he was honest, humble and hard working enough to bring all this situation to a happy ending where, I believe, everyone is happy with Mummysgold... I have not seeing further complains and apparently Darran succeded on helping every customer. My complain was already sent to eCogra, after Darran had admitted that somethings went bad, eCogra in an email basically told me: Your complain is not valid. Mummysgold is fine... SHUT UP.

Honestly, lets bury them... I know that tons of unexperienced customers might see the T@%@# eCogra logo, learn about eCogra and experience my first feeling: Oh.. they endorse it!!! They must be good....

They must have built a fortune on $500 a logo ...

 

[Pinababy69]

If, after the dust clears, it's proven that a casino operator can get away with unscrupulous behaviour, then the anti-online gaming crowd will have some serious ammunition to fire at the whole industry...not just the unethical operators.

If, on the other hand, a strong, enforceable ruling that makes an example of poor behaviour is delivered, then the pro-online gaming supporters will have an important victory. It will prove that the industry is pursuing an aggressive self-regulating reputation and that further regulation will lead to a strong, ethical, and trustworthy industry.

I think this story, if properly spread to the mainstream media, can have a huge negative or positive impact on good and bad operators alike depending on how the issue is resolved.


Comments?

Scooter, I think you've nailed it. Given the debate currently going on in the US, this issue couldn't have come at a better (or worse) time, dependent on the outcome.

This issue is about social responsibility, and how much of that responsibility the operators and regulators are willing to assume, and should assume. I can't stress enough how important I think it is that a precedent be set.

Excellent post!!

It's amazing how many new contributors to the forum this issue has brought out, I hope everyone sticks around after this is over. We could sure use some more reasonable, level-headed people who actually give a shit around here.

 

[Renegade]

This is very serious...

eCOGRA has its hands full on this one, if they make a mistake the industry could be crushed, if they do what is right and just for the better of online gambling then the industry will have a hugh boost.
Their rep is on line, but so is the industry.
If eCOGRA fails in the handling of this, I don't know if the Gambling Industry can recover.
With the anti-gambling bill and states pushing to ban online gambling we're in big trouble in the states if eCOGRA fails.
I just hope eCOGRA realizes that the entire industry is going to be impacted by this...either good or bad.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Oh Dear

I have been trying to tell you that the eCogra approved casinos have the eCogra Board in their pockets. Have any of you checked out the members of the eCogra Board and their affiliations to the approved casinos and software companies? They are all connected in someway that benefits each of them.

eCogra have an opportunity to demonstrate their independence here, what they do will mark them for a long time. They probably want to be absolutely certain that they will not be made to look a fool by the players, or the casino's legal team. This can't be easy.

English law can be slow, but it is wrong to see this as an inconvenience that can be dealt with by using Costa Rican law, a convenience that rogue casinos appreciate!
Saudi Law would have ALL casinos shut down. In Islamic law, gambling is a SIN!

 

[jetset]

Watchdog - explain this statement please:

"They must have built a fortune on $500 a logo ..."

Regarding your allegation that the FGA turned down your personal complaint, I would be happy to re-visit this with eCOGRA if only to check the veracity of your allegation.

Perhaps you would like to be more specific about what your complaint was about, and how Darren at Mummy's Gold managed in the end to so effectively convert you into a such an enthusiastic supporter of his casino, and such a critic of eCOGRA?

I regret to tell you that I find your statement: "eCogra in an email basically told me: Your complain is not valid. Mummysgold is fine... SHUT UP." unlikely. I personally find that hard to believe.

In light of your generalised criticism of this organisation I have to ask you once again: are you familiar with the eCOGRA infrastructure and how it works operationally? Do you understand the funding for this non-profit outfit? Have you actually visited the site and done some reading?

 

[jetset]

I would like to address this comment from Grandmaster if I may:

"There is also e-mail. Even if a conference call is necessary, it is hard to believe that the have not had time to have one in 4 days. Remember, this is a major scandal. If they are all so busy with other things, then maybe they should not be directors of ecogra. If compliance with English law is so cumbersome, they could have specified that disputes will be settled under Costa Rican law or Saudi Arabian law or whatever."

Mitch's post, and for that matter my own made earlier here underlines the fact that eCOGRA is a non-profit company with responsibilities and legal liability that goes beyond that of the private individual, and it has to act in compliance with legal advice and its own constitution, as unpopular as that might make it.

Under these sort of constraints I doubt that many of us would be happy as executives of any company with rushing in making statements until everything required was nailed down in terms of company procedures.

The understandably high temperatures here notwithstanding, I can see no immediate practical urgency to make a statement until the above has been achieved.

A bland eCOGRA statement like: "We're watching this situation" or "This is really naughty" which does not take the issue forward would, I suggest, be criticised by some as stalling, trying to sweep things under the carpet, hoping it just blows away or some other allegation of protectionism.

I would rather see sense and fact than speed and superficialty in a statement.

I'm afraid I can't agree with his statement regarding the directors.

Internationally respected and independent directors of the calibre of Hirst, Catania and Galston are not easy to attract to non-profit boards of directors, and eCOGRA is fortunate to have persuaded men with this level of experience and integrity to run its operational affairs.

Regarding the jurisdictional comments, I have to assume that this is GM's dry sense of the sardonic in play. I don't see these as viable alternatives, and I could only imagine what eCOGRA's detractors would make of Costa Rican connections LOL!

 

[GrandMaster]

I will refer only to the eCOGRA issue here.

Much as I would like them to come out and declare and confirm what scum this group is, they have to be careful.

They could be open to serious legal action by this group if they :-

1. Get it wrong. (not likely!)

2. Reach and declare judgement without demonstrable consideration, which obviously includes giving the group time and opportunity to respond to all allegations. ( I know members are anxious to proceed to the execution but the knitting will have to wait for a while!)

Mitch

As I wrote earlier, I do not expect a final decision in 4 days, but I am yet to hear a convincing argument why ecogra could not suspend the seal without prejudice and make the casinos remove the articles pending a full investigation. Examples show that such a thing is possible even while complying with English law.

If you were in charge of consumer protection (Trading Standards in the UK) and you had pretty strong evidence that some electrical goods were faulty, would you make the shops pull those goods off the shelves and then establish who is responsible, or would you investigate and let people get electrocuted in the meanwhile.

Ecogra's priorities appear to be in the wrong place. They seem to be most concerned about themselves and the casinos, and the players they claim to protect come third. What about people who might get lured to Jackpot Factory by these articles, maybe someone with a gambling problem who reads an article and believes that he lost money because he has been playing the wrong kind of slots, or someone with money problems who reads about how JF slots are guaranteed to make money for him. Will ecogra compensate these people when they lose? Of course not. But they don't matter because they are only players and don't have money to sue ecogra.

 

[Simmo!]

If you were in charge of consumer protection (Trading Standards in the UK) and you had pretty strong evidence that some electrical goods were faulty, would you make the shops pull those goods off the shelves and then establish who is responsible, or would you investigate and let people get electrocuted in the meanwhile.

I think that's a good point. I agree a quick decision is required, but it needs to be carefully thought through as pointed out previously, so the right decision is more important than the speed thereof, although both should have some priority!

At least there is someone to look at this.

 

[The Watchdog]

Renegade and Jetset

Renegade...

I guarantee you that a lot of people know eCogra is not doing its job as they should, so this will not affect the industry as you think. A lot of sites not being endorsed by eCogra are doing good and a lot of people know these sites don´t need their logo to be trusted.


Jetset...

You might be a big fan of eCogra, which I don´t criticize... However you or no one on this site is my father, uncle or mentor for me to lie. What I said is 100% true and I don´t deny any of my allegations on this thread. Honestly, I have never felt any respect for eCogras job. If someone new to the gambling industry wants to know about respected sites I will honestly recommen them to go either to www.casinomeister.com or www.therx.com. From personal experience I know that both sites will not lie about how the companies showned on their sites. If some site is not doing a good job, they should be reported. If some site is working to provide the best service they should be honored. If you read my posts (some times hated, some times thanked) on other threads you will see that I am 100% honest on a site that behaves and one that doesn´t.

With much pleasure I will check my inbox for you to read the incompetent and lame answer that eCogra sent me. Give me some time, my inbox is full of crap.
When I find it, I will send it to you in a PM, is not my intention to post that email on a thread,regardless how lame it was.

thanks

In addition, I apologize for saying that eCogra is making money of their logos. Is just a figure of speach. Is just that some sites have their logo and do not follow the ¨"eCogra´s requirements to be endorsed".....

 

[jetset]

I look forward to receiving that, Watchdog but you still have not explained how Darren managed to turn your complaint about Mummy's Gold to eCOGRA into a success for his casino?

I have no problem with you expressing your very clear antipathy to eCOGRA, but making generalised statements that it is useless and lacks integrity, and urging others to "bury" it when you do not appear to be well-informed on the organisation and how it works has to be questioned imo.

Edited to comment on your edit "In addition, I apologize for saying that eCogra is making money of their logos. Is just a figure of speach."

It is a damaging and incorrect figure of speech which I think illustrates that you probably need to do a little more research on the subject.

 

[The Watchdog]

Ok.

I found my complain... here is the compalin and the first message sent.

...................

XXXXX,

Tex is on leave today and she will follow up on your dispute first thing Monday morning.

Regards
XXXXXXXXX


From: [email protected] [mailto: [email protected]]
Sent: 05 May 2006 12:22
To: [email protected]
Subject: Player Dispute

name »» Mr xxxxxxx
country »» Costa Rica
city »» San Jose
telephone »» 506-xxxxxx
email »» [email protected]
casino name »» Mummy’s Gold Casino
username »» tmgdxxxxxxx
date of incident »» 5/5/2006
casino contact email »» [email protected]
software provider »» Microgaming
informed provider »» yes
to whom »» buyi, customer service agent
dispute »» Couldn´t provide good service. Didn´t answer my questions or email. The chat was shut down like 5 times. I won $1200 on ther 1hour free promo so I was checking on the procedure to withdrawal, they never answered. I know there was a deposit required, on the casino software says $25 and on the website says $50... Awful experience with their service and never got an answer on that. Captaincooks casino honors his bonus, which is the same (read it on a review) I would like a prompt answer. I really like Casinomeister, he told me to contact you guys. To be honest I prefer Brian

-----------------

That was my complain... let me find the answer... give me some time

 

[The Watchdog]

I have found it

Here it is...

Sorry, I didn´t want to go this far.. however let me tell you that I find this answer to my complain really incompetent and lousy.

Here it is...

----------------------------------------

Dear XXXXX,



I appreciate the time you have taken to contact us and inform us of your predicament. However, according to our rules displayed on our site “Please make certain that at least two weeks have passed since the problem began and all reasonable attempts have been made to negotiate a solution.” I am unable to get directly involved in your dispute at this time as you have listed the ‘Date of Incident’ as 5/5/2006.



If you have not received a satisfactory resolution to your dispute after the above mentioned two weeks have passed, please feel free to contact me directly.

Kind Regards,

XXXXXX
-------------------

COME ON... MY COMPLAIN WAS NOT MADE IN ORDER TO BRING PROBLEMS TO THIS CASINO, however I felt that I was not treated right.

How come they tell me this, and then the guy working for the company tells me that what I said is true and that they are working on solving these problems????

I am really, REALLY DISSAPOINTED of these guys from eCogra and will like to hear their opinion.

Casinomeister, I apologize if I am crossing the line here, however this is just not right. Feel free to ban and block my username when ever.

Also, if some crazy tico is reported missing or hurt by unknown reasons in the following days its probably me.

Right now I feel like Charles, the guy who posted his story about the casino on some 7th building located in Costa Rica.

Honestly I don´t post in this site to bring problems to any one. I really have the wish for all companies to provide good service and to run a professional operation. For what I have seen in my years in this business, a lot of companies are just too unexperienced to be promoted as respected ones.

 

[jetset]

Grandmaster, I think this is a bit of a stretch:

QUOTE: If you were in charge of consumer protection (Trading Standards in the UK) and you had pretty strong evidence that some electrical goods were faulty, would you make the shops pull those goods off the shelves and then establish who is responsible, or would you investigate and let people get electrocuted in the meanwhile.UNQUOTE

I don't believe this sort of SEO practice, which seems to have been going on for some time can be equated to the clear and immediate danger of an electrical fault or contaminated food or drugs. Therefore if it takes a little while longer to make sure the process is legal and effective before bursting into print I think that is acceptable.

That said, the continued presence of this junk from JF is objectionable, especially in view of the undertaking by the JF general manager that he had given directions that it be taken down. And I would be surprised if eCOGRA has not already insisted that that be done, too. Continued non-compliance will only add to the consequences for JF as the process develops imo.

We will have to agree to disagree on the question of eCOGRA's player-sensitivity. I can only speak from my personal conversations with Beveridge, Hirst, Rees and Galston, perhaps backed by the service that eCOGRA has given to players so far, which gives me a distinctly contrary impression to that which you seem to hold.

In fact, from your recent posts you seem more intent on crucifying eCOGRA than the Jackpot Factory people who have direct responsibility for this affair.

 

[The Watchdog]

Jet set

Sorry, I dont know how to make nice quotes

Jetset, you said the following:


In fact, from your recent posts you seem more intent on crucifying eCOGRA than the Jackpot Factory people who have direct responsibility for this affair.

If Jackpot Facotry is doing a good or lousy job is not the issue.

WHY IS eCOGRA endorsing so many sites that receive so many complains????

Isnt their job to make sure that every eCCOGRA endorsed site work by "their book"?

still waiting on someone from eCOGRA to post on this thread.

 

[jetset]

Oh, come on, Watchdog - this was your "eCogra in an email basically told me: Your complain is not valid. Mummysgold is fine... SHUT UP." ?

You seem to have fired off a "heat of the moment" complaint to the Fair Gaming Advocate, possibly in anger and frustration about alleged response inefficiency from Mummy's Gold.

Why you thought it necessary to add "I really like Casinomeister, he told me to contact you guys. To be honest I prefer Brian" to the end of your complaint eludes me.

You received a polite response explaining the rules, along with an offer of further assistance if you are unable to resolve the issue direct with the casino within the rules timeframe, and you interpret this as: "...really incompetent and lousy?"

I'll take a guess here, but there's a good chance that the FGA fired off an email to the casino anyway asking the manager to get his act together and respond to you.

Is that what happened? Did Darren at Mummy's Gold contact you shortly thereafter?

So how was it all settled in the end, resulting in your exaggerated praise for Darren and somewhat over-the-top criticism of the FGA? Did the casino sort out your problem with it?

And what's all this about - what are you implying with these sort of comments?:

"Casinomeister, I apologize if I am crossing the line here, however this is just not right. Feel free to ban and block my username when ever."

Please don't come the martyr with this sort of crap - you know as well as I do that you are in no danger of such a fate. Just be honest.

"Also, if some crazy tico is reported missing or hurt by unknown reasons in the following days its probably me."

????

"Right now I feel like Charles, the guy who posted his story about the casino on some 7th building located in Costa Rica."

????

 

[The Watchdog]

JAJAJAA

I made you write some .... nice

Whatever...

I just feel that you are the typical eCOGRA groupie....

Let me remidn you something my friend. I DIDNT START THIS THREAD...

I am sorry your feelings were hurt and you are probably with 1000 napkins cleaning your tears since I dont like their work.

As I said before, I dont respect their job at ALL. AND I AM REAL HAPPY THAT THIS THREAD WAS STARTED.

I am not here to make enemies or friends. I honestly believe that the online gaming industry should be regulated and proving that not all companies are linked to money laundring or organized crime as some goverments try to advertise.

If you are so proud and believe that eCCOGRA does such a good work, good for you, send them your resume. From your posts here I guarantee you they are happy some one like you is backing them up.

Regardless what you say or what examples you may give, I will not change my position regarding their operation.

If I ever run in to a newbie to the industry I will not tell them to look for eCOGRAs endoresed sites. Is not that I will mention this either, but I will just tell them to learn of which companies have been on business for a while, have a good reputation and if they want to feel secure about this go to the meisters site or therxs site and check the companies featured on these sites.

Lets be friends Jetset... jajaja... is not my intention to change your mind about eCOGRA... is just thay I am really waiting to see a comment from them instead of your comments, which I have noticed show that you really respect their operation. GOOD FOR YOU BUDDY

 

[Webzcas]

Whilst no public decision had been forthcoming from eCOGRA concerning the fate of JackPot Factory's accredited status. I would like to commend Andrew in actually taking time out to respond to the individuals who have sent him emails expressing their concerns.

However, I can only see one course of action that eCOGRA can take and that is withdrawing the accredited status from All Slots and their sister sites. Failure to do so, will IMO irreversably damage eCOGRA.

 

[jetset]

Sorry, I dont know how to make nice quotes

Jetset, you said the following:


In fact, from your recent posts you seem more intent on crucifying eCOGRA than the Jackpot Factory people who have direct responsibility for this affair.

If Jackpot Facotry is doing a good or lousy job is not the issue.

WHY IS eCOGRA endorsing so many sites that receive so many complains????

Isnt their job to make sure that every eCCOGRA endorsed site work by "their book"?

still waiting on someone from eCOGRA to post on this thread.

"If Jackpot Facotry is doing a good or lousy job is not the issue."

But of course it is the issue - by JF's own admission this reprehensible lapse of ethics and conduct is this casino group management's sole responsibility and therefore the main issue here that needs to be addressed in an effective way. You do not believe eCOGRA is doing that. I do.

"WHY IS eCOGRA endorsing so many sites that receive so many complains????
Isnt their job to make sure that every eCCOGRA endorsed site work by "their book"?"

Have you ever looked at the number of complaints submitted to the FGA at eCOGRA in relation to the fact that the 75-odd seal holding operations probably handle something like 65 to 70 percent of the total online casino business on the Internet?

The last numbers released by the FGA I think indicated that something like (I'm open to correction here because I can't find the document at the moment) 800 or 900 complaints in total had been dealt with in the last two years. Now imagine what sort of miniscule percentage that might be out of the hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of transactions these seal holder groups handle every day. That is likely to increase as more seal holders pass the inspection and probity checks in the future as eCOGRA demands.

It's an interesting perspective that you should seriously consider before making the sort of comments that you have here regarding your apparent perception that seal casinos are producing more complaints than others in the industry.

These groups have made a major commitment to comply with a set of common sense rules and standards that support the player, and that involves a lot of work and therefore expense that lesser operations may find tedious and unnecessary.

Regrettably, instances will inevitably occur where there are errors and misjudgements - not all the eCOGRA's in the world can prevent that - but it can help to redress it. eCOGRA tries to ensure that the casinos have the right standards to operate honestly and efficiently, but there are occasional incidents where these measures either fail or are disregarded, when it has see that the right course is taken and get the casino back to best practice standards.

Where the casino screws up despite this, or where the player feels the casino has screwed up despite this, eCOGRA provides a channel through which the player can pursue an issue he or she has been unable to resolve with the casino.

That availability has meant that eCOGRA gets dragged into just about every issue that develops, and rightly so if it has the authority it claims over seal-holders.

It also means that it gets hammered from every side when a seal casino is at fault through a sort of guilt transference. The management seem to accept that there will always be those who like yourself are aggresively critical, but it does not seem to deter them from plugging away at getting better levels of practice from the casinos carrying the seal.

I think that is fortunate, because they do more good than harm, and the fact that they are the first to be called upon to get involved by the players, the affiliates and even their toughest critics sends a positive message, imo.

I've commented elsewhere on the constraints against the knee-jerk reaction to anything an operation does wrong : "just take away their seal" This is possible, but has to follow a process.

If a decision goes against the casino and the issue has illustrated a lack of compliance, that is addressed by eCOGRA directly with the casino management, and it is noted for re-checking on the next independent review.

Not everyone may be happy with every decision, but it is a formalised system that strives to ensure that matters are dealt with in as even-handed and controlled a way as possible.

 

[jetset]

Watchdog, I'm afraid I'm definitely not going to waste any more time on trying to explore your problems with eCOGRA after the tone of your last somewhat immature post here, which did not answer my questions and really doesn't leave a lot of room for further discussion.

 

[GrandMaster]

I'm afraid I can't agree with his statement regarding the directors.

Internationally respected and independent directors of the calibre of Hirst, Catania and Galston are not easy to attract to non-profit boards of directors, and eCOGRA is fortunate to have persuaded men with this level of experience and integrity to run its operational affairs.

They sure did not earn their reputation by their handling of this issue, they seem to be too busy fiddling while Rome burns.

Could you ask Frank Catania how long he would have allowed an Atlantic City casino to display a sign claiming that gambling cures depression?

Regarding the jurisdictional comments, I have to assume that this is GM's dry sense of the sardonic in play. I don't see these as viable alternatives, and I could only imagine what eCOGRA's detractors would make of Costa Rican connections LOL!

The serious point is that either they are either hiding behind the law and procedural issues to gain time (most likely in my opinion), or the law and the contracts with the casinos indeed preclude them from taking swift action. In the latter case the directors and their lawyers are at fault for not foreseeing this, and for not drawing up different contracrs or establishing ecogra in a different jurisdiction. Can you explain to me why suspension of the seals without prejudice pending a full investigation is impossible?

 

[Sodax77]

Finally i hear all this!!!

I remember, when "jetset" enourage send my timestamp-idea (referring T&C) to Andrew, eCOGRA CEO.

We had nice dicussion with Andrew - About 20 emails, and only once, everything turn dramarically, i told him, how some their clients didn't like my feedback in Public Forum at CM forum, Ezboard, etc,
and how i saw after that, what mean - revenge - spamming, etc, etc by their clients. That's why i removed one contact symbol from my CM forum profile

So i wrote polite and long feedback to Andrew, where i mention all these and then Andrew from eCOGRA finally ask: "Would you like me to make timestamping T&C's an eGAP requirement, or not?!"

I say honestly that if you can reply me and listen me, then it is ok... otherwise you can not use that ever!

And referring his question...I was like, ok, what?! I i kindly asked that he will reply first to my previous questions/reports, but - Hi didn't. I offer my help, etc, and promise to check and tell clients name, who revenge me (no, i'm not kidding) and clients who broke their eGAB rules all the time. But no reply

So finally i get it, they only want some "credits"/Reputation,
etc... and actually he reply once: "I can assure you we put the players first."
and few other lines. But after then, he didn't reply any emails.

So, if this is real organization, then why they lie?! Why they don't care?! Why they don't accept criticism?! Why they don't listen - Players?! Why they don't care, even their clients broke their rules! AND why their clients come first, then players?! And if they don't like your reply, they skip it - ignore it, but still they want more clients, now they have some new 100 Seal campaign, etc.

They don't care... you can write polite letter, you can proof things... but this "organization" don't like to hear truth, because they afraid to lose their clients, "reputation", etc

GOOD BYE!!!

eCogra-ROGUED!!!!!

 

[The Watchdog]

Jetset

HEY...

At no point I said that sealed casinos are bringing more problems than others...

I find that comment "immature" as you said before..jajaja

For me is not a matter if sealed casinos are bringing more complains.

On your endless post, you mentioned something about tons of issues and complaints handled by eCOGRA...

There you go... why are their sites giving so much work???? Apparently they have endorsed so many lousy sites that their hands are full of work. Those numbers you provided just brought my respect for them to a much lower level.

If it was my call to endorse a site as a watchdog I will study them from head to toes.. Then I will allow 3 complains... First one fix it, second one: what happened? third complain: get the $%$"" out of here.. plain an simple.

 

[Let_It_Ride]

wow what a lot of time and energy being spent on eCORGA, I'd never even heard of them before this incident, why is no one going after the board of directors of jackpot factory for answers? makes more sense to me then asking for statements from a non profit making organisation that has one or two employees.

Hands up how many of us look at the logos/seals on a casino we choose to play at, not many I guess.

Simple you don't like what jackpot factory did (I think it was stupid) move on close your account and go down the highstreet to the next casino, eventually you'll get to number 32 (hint hint), where they'll look after you no bull, no fuss.