Phoenician Casino

[caruso]

I thought the quoted passage was clear enough?

I listed a few things, off the top of my head, that affiliates would like - in response to the quote. The poster, who is an affiliate, is quoting from an affiliate forum. The unguarded posting of that comment here (a forum with a player bias) I found refreshing. Affiliates and players have diametrically opposed objectives. Affiliates want casinos to take money off players; players want to take money off casinos (delusional).

Methinks Dean would not have authorized that particular quote here.

[Casinomeister]

I thought the quoted passage was clear enough?

I listed a few things, off the top of my head, that affiliates would like - in response to the quote. The poster, who is an affiliate, is quoting from an affiliate forum. The unguarded posting of that comment here (a forum with a player bias) I found refreshing. Affiliates and players have diametrically opposed objectives. Affiliates want casinos to take money off players; players want to take money off casinos (delusional).

Methinks Dean would not have authorized that particular quote here.

Bullshit. Again Caruso, your lumping all affiliates and players into a "greed bag" forgetting that many players enjoy the entertainment quality of the games - they are not primarily focused on "beating the house." And there are many affiliates or advertisers that are happy with promoting casinos that are of a certain quality that are not problematic "clip joints". A comment like the one above is surprisingly narrow-minded and flawed.

You fail to understand the relationship with many of these affiliates - many of whom do not receive a "cut" in deposits, but a flat fee for players that enroll. And what about the media buys? This throws your belief of a diametrically opposed relationship into a tailspin. Players could come through my site and kick the casino's ass all the way to Costa Rica and it wouldn't make any difference to me financially.

Also, lest we forget that many of these "players" are affiliates as well.

And Casinomeister's forum is not player biased, nor will it ever be. It is a forum for the industry; it just has more players a members, but there are many operators here as well.

But what I have an issue with is the following. This comment is out of line:

New handbook by Michael Staw due for release soon: "How An RTG Operator Can Maximise Screw Job On Player"?

You are insinuating that Phoenician is screwing over players. Explain to me why I should not consider this slander and suspend your account.

[Sodax77]

I have my first criticism (about Phoenician Group) ever few weeks ago, so i PM Dean... And he solve problems in few hours. Thanks again!

[caruso]

This is getting a little out of proportion. I am not insinuating that - how can you possibly read that into it? Nor am I insinuating anything. I was making a point about RTG's history in general (and others), all of which stemmed from the "...affiliates will like..." quote. That "affiliates" was chosen over "players" is quite unusual, you have to admit. However, since the passage evidently comes from an affiliate forum it makes sense. On a forum with any player presence at all, it raises an eyebrow. Of course Phonecian wants to keep its affiliates happy. This is not a crime.

By "biased" I mean with a greater physical visibility on the part of the players, not any fundemental bias in the nature of the forum. Additionally, I'm aware of the advertising nature of Casinomeister - you've made mention of this on several occasions, Bryan. There was no disrespect intended towards yourself.

I have to disagree with you that any player approaches a casino with any intention other than winning, Bryan. Even the most degenerate slot junkie has, at the back of their mind, the idea of hitting a jackpot and cashing in a fortune. Either that, or had it at some point, before the compulsion took over. Delusional, as I said, but the flawed hope is always there.

[Casinomeister]

Caruso, nothing is out of proportion. I quote again:

New handbook by Michael Staw due for release soon: "How An RTG Operator Can Maximise Screw Job On Player"?

You are implying that Phoenecian casino, it's affiliates, and RTGs M. Staw are out to screw the player. Or did I miss something?? What is your point?

You're not getting off too easy on this careless flipancy, because this is what I have a problem with. It's like you're waiting for me to have my back turned, and then you throw in these irresponsible comments trying to stir the shit, trying to be funny or whatever. It don't cut it here.

I have warned you again and again about these posts. How many "last warnings" do you need? Or do you feel that after a few weeks go by things are cool. Well, it's not.

[Simmo!]

Affiliates and players have diametrically opposed objectives. Affiliates want casinos to take money off players; players want to take money off casinos (delusional).

I think there are two sides to this argument. There is no doubt that an affiliate wants to attract players and for many its a good way of running their own home business or like me, for funding their own gambling. However there are "affiliates" and there are "affiliates". Some just reel off the casino promo with little bearing on the actual integrity or player experience while others build sites, like CM has here, that deal with the real issues and allow both sides of the story to be shown, leaving it up to the player to decide his/her course.

A good portal IMHO will properly research the properties they represent and provide information (and/or as in this case, information from other players) outside of the normal "PR" which can be very useful to a player. It's a great way of providing "real" information and better still, it remains free assistance for the player while the affiliate links help the portal owner maintain and run the service or continue to play and therefore research the casinos. Its quite easy to spot a "bad" affiliate portal by looking at the properties on there - it wouldn't take someone from this forum long to spot if the rogues were represented.

Many people use the CM site/forum/reputable casino lists so it makes sense to use CM's affiliate links as it doesn't cost the player a dime and it helps support the community and valuable information here.

PS. Sorry Dean for a) posting the quote if its caused you any embarassment and b) helping the thread to get hijacked into what could turn out to be a sensitive area.

Cheers

Simmo!

[Petunia]

Dean,

I hope you find what you are looking for, and honey.... It is good to know when your family comes first and when your career takes priority.
I wish you best of luck in trying to find that balance! It is hard.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the Player vs Affiliate 'surprise' Thing is, if the Affiliates do a good job and are happy, the players will benefit by getting better 'conditions' too. The one works with the other. There should not be an argument of any sorts about this. Truth is.. Many players ARE affiliates so.. erm.. we all get a bite of this pie, and Frankly, there is enough to go around for everyone.

In the end, EVERYONE is looking out for #1. So as far as I am aware, this was to find out about Dean's where-abouts... so now you know.

[caruso]

You are implying that Phoenecian casino, it's affiliates, and RTGs M. Staw are out to screw the player. Or did I miss something?? What is your point?...It's like you're waiting for me to have my back turned...

Bryan, are you suggesting that most RTG units, long history of theft, screw jobs, attempted screw jobs, up-stakes-and-run and all the rest notwithstanding do NOT have a stone-cold proven track record of criminal behaviour? Do you recall the history of RTG? Why this sudden all-out defense? RTG, three or four acceptable operations aside, is the longest running joke in the OC industry. All this HAPPENED, Bryan.

Remember Merlin?
TCO?
Grand Banks?
Angelciti?
Virtual v. 1 et al?
Prism?
TVS?
Golden Comps?
Crystal Palace et al?

I can currently name THREE OR FOUR RTG units I feel I could play at. There must be about forty out there - if you include clones, about 200. RTG is an industry joke - we all know that. You have been as involved as anyone in most of these disputes, and you know it too. To suggest that a comment about RTG "maximising the screw job" is in some way "inappropriate" is rather confusing to me. RTG - not casino, nor affiliate, specific. You have yourself been a LONG standing hater of RTG. Until a relatively short while ago you would allow NOT ONE RTG on your site - and correctly so! We essentially agreed - now we disagree?

No Bryan, I don't need you nor anyone else's "back to be turned" before I make a point. I'm sorry you feel the need to portray me as such a gutless, weak individual. However, I think you'll find that my record in managing my own affairs in OC land speaks for itself - so I'm not particularly put out. Others will judge whether I'm a spineless coward or a gutsy fighter who don't take no shit, and everyone is entitled to their opinion one way or the other.

And let me come full-circle and repeat: Whilst I believe Phonecian to be one of the better RTGs out there, I find it MOST eyebrow-raising that their BOSS should come out and say "...we're making changes that all AFFILIATES will like".

Why would Dean prioritize affiliates over players?

What changes, affiliate-friendly, could benefit the players?

Are they going to introduce DWFP?
Are they going to introduce JOB 7/9?
Are they going to pull a few decks out of the pontoon game?
Are they going to "loosen" their slots?
Are they going to introduce deposit bonuses on all deposits?
Are they going to pull the "0" on the roulette wheel and make it a coin-flip?
Are they going to run a "blackjack 2:1" promotion?

LOL. I think maybe not. You can betcha the players would like all of the above. Bryan, there are precendents here: when CON switched over to that God-awful new software, something was apparently amiss. Affiliates (which, I know not) complained that profits were down. They were not happy. PLAYERS WERE WINNING. This is a fact. It's a fact that certain affiliates - many affiliates - are NOT on the players' side, and it doesn't take much to work out why that is. I'm not saying this about you, or Ted, or Cindy, or any other I know for a fact to have a foot in both camps. But the fact remains.

This was the point of the post, Bryan. My "nightmare list" of options was to make the point, graphically, that changes that may be agreeable to a certain category of affiliate (not all) would certainly not remotely benefit the player, and I would like to know why Dean chooses to prioritise in this way. I'm not suggesting - and I'm somewhat flabbergasted that you read it this way - that Phonecian is out to screw the player. Dean is far too smart to do this. He knows, as all smart casinos know, that the way to make the maximum money possible out of his casino is to treat his players as 24 carat gold - and he does an excellent job, on both fronts.

[Casinomeister]

Okay, I'm not here to start butting heads, "but" there are some things I feel you don't quite understand.

Bryan, are you suggesting that most RTG units, long history of theft, screw jobs, attempted screw jobs, up-stakes-and-run and all the rest notwithstanding do NOT have a stone-cold proven track record of criminal behaviour? Do you recall the history of RTG? Why this sudden all-out defense? RTG, three or four acceptable operations aside, is the longest running joke in the OC industry. All this HAPPENED, Bryan.

I am fully aware of the rogueness of the past - but since I have first hand experience meeting with the operators/owners, the sales reps, software developers, and the CEO, there are a lot of things that I discussed openly via my nesletter/webcast, and there are a number of things I am privy to that never trickled down to the player level. I understand RTG probably better than anyone in the business. I know that this company has had some real hard knocks, but the past is the past; I know they have learned from their mistakes. And this is one of the few companies in this industry that have admitted their gaffes and shortcomings and they have been making valid attempts to fix these.

...To suggest that a comment about RTG "maximising the screw job" is in some way "inappropriate" is rather confusing to me. RTG - not casino, nor affiliate, specific. You have yourself been a LONG standing hater of RTG. Until a relatively short while ago you would allow NOT ONE RTG on your site - and correctly so! We essentially agreed - now we disagree?.

I was never a hater of RTG, and perhaps this is where you may be misunderstanding me.

You missed the point.

The negativity of many of your comments are out of line in my opinion. You have the tendancy to make scathing remarks which at times seem thoughtless or unwarranted. These are people you are referring to - and if you were to get out and meet some of them, or attend some of these industry events you would perhaps change your approach. I don't like your negativity, and I have mentioned this more than enough times to make myself clear.

...No Bryan, I don't need you nor anyone else's "back to be turned" before I make a point. I'm sorry you feel the need to portray me as such a gutless, weak individual. However, I think you'll find that my record in managing my own affairs in OC land speaks for itself - so I'm not particularly put out. Others will judge whether I'm a spineless coward or a gutsy fighter who don't take no shit, and everyone is entitled to their opinion one way or the other.

I'm not portraying you as gutless. But is seems that when I'm out of town and not moderating the forum closely, these "posts" pop up. I don't need the headache. You're sapping the time and effort I should be spending elsewhere. Again, why do you feel you need to be constantly "fighting"? That's the problem right there. There are plently of other players that are able to make their point without resorting to insults or caustic posts. Take no shit? Again, what are you so damn angry about?

If you really want to be a gutsy fighter, why don't you pry yourself away from your monitor in January and attend the ICE in London? Make plans to meet some of the people you feel you want to take on and go at it.

...And let me come full-circle and repeat: Whilst I believe Phonecian to be one of the better RTGs out there, I find it MOST eyebrow-raising that their BOSS should come out and say "...we're making changes that all AFFILIATES will like"..?.

This post was pulled from the CAP, so what? The audience is affiliates and webmasters. And what do affiliates like? Affiliats like a casinos that are safe, secure, and that will not screw over players. Affiliates like good accurate stats. Affiliates like prompt customer service. You keep looking at this whole scenario that it's us versus them - when in many cases it is not. I can not name one affiliate who is not a player. I can't. And the bottom line is that most good affiliates care that the players they are referring to a casino are being treated well.

If Dean were making a public statement in this forum (which is heavily populated by players) the comments would have been geared toward this audience I'm sure. It's a shame that you are attempting to find a worm under each stone.

...This was the point of the post, Bryan. My "nightmare list" of options was to make the point, graphically, that changes that may be agreeable to a certain category of affiliate (not all) would certainly not remotely benefit the player, and I would like to know why Dean chooses to prioritise in this way. I'm not suggesting - and I'm somewhat flabbergasted that you read it this way - that Phonecian is out to screw the player. Dean is far too smart to do this. He knows, as all smart casinos know, that the way to make the maximum money possible out of his casino is to treat his players as 24 carat gold - and he does an excellent job, on both fronts.

If this was the point of the post, then you lost me as well as a few others. I don't dig negativity - I've experienced and seen enough of this. I tire of the caustic posts. I do not condone defamous or personal assaults. I don't like it, and I feel that it is uncalled for 99% of the time. I am only asking you to mellow out and try to treat others as you would wish to be treated.

[bbooze]

Sorry to go off topic a bit, but is the Phonecian/Casinomeister promo that I read in the Nov. 5th newsletter still on? It says 100% up to $200, but the link doesn't seem to work.

Did I both snooze and looze? Thanks.