Realtime Gaming alert

[cipher]

This morning I had a group of of folks over to my office for the purposes of getting our thoughts and information together on a couple of sports books that we might be using for the up coming college and pro football season.

After kicking the football issue around for awhile, I was asked which casinos I felt were the most favorable for the player in playing Blackjack in addition to other console games. Naturally the subject of the Phoenician and Nostalgia casinos came up, in view of the instant withdrawals that are offered by that group. At that point I threw my two cents into the conversation by saying that I had become more than a little concerned as to some recent trends that I had noticed with regards all Realtime Gaming casinos in general, and particularly the fact that I had noticed an alarming amount of single wins for the player but a staggering amount of consecutive win clumps in favor of the house and that this pattern seemed to be getting worse rather than evening out or getting better. Additionally there seemed to be a strong indication that the players hands were in fact weighted as to the amount wagered.

A couple of the people asked if we could go on-line and log-on for the purposes of taking a look at a Realtime Gaming session. At that point we logged on to the Phoenician casino and I've got tell you that I felt like a prophet and I'll let the attached Cipher strand speak for itself.

This is exactly the type of thing that has been occurring on a regular basis with Realtime Gaming casinos and in point of fact I brought this exact issue to the attention of Brad, the manager of Bodog casino this weekend and in fact I sent him a rather lengthy Cipher strand in support of that opinion.

Lastly, I brought this to the attention of Dean at the Phoenician casino even to the point of alerting Dean of the fact that I would be posting this post as well as the attached Cipher strand. I would be very careful about playing at any RTG casino as the data that I've recorded over the last month or so seems to have become the "norm" and that is not good for the player.

 

[cipher]

Attachments to above post:

 

[bewitch]

Cipher, Thank you for the information. Hope your hard work will make things right again. HAVE A NICE WEEK!!

 

[Black21Jack]

Well I must say that this is very disturbing, and disappointing as I was a proponent of RTG and would come to their defence whenever they were under fire. I too have come to this conclusion, based on what I have been noticing in my gameplay. I deposited money into 27 RTG's (rogues included) just to test the software today, nothing scientific but just to look at gameplay in many RTG's. It is unbelievable. I find that the worst casino's are those using the new multihand format and I would like ciphers input on this, and if you have ever tried to analyze the difference between the multihand BJ casinos and the single hand BJ casinos. I lost my money in every single multihand casino with an unbelievable amount of dealer BJ's and 21's to my 20's. In one of the casinos starting with the first hand played the dealer got 5 BJ's in a row and then pushed every hand 20, 17, 17, 19 after. I would like to know the probability of this if anyone can help. I am going to request my logs for the session from this particular casino and I will post them here you will be amazed.

 

[cipher]

Well I must say that this is very disturbing, and disappointing as I was a proponent of RTG and would come to their defence whenever they were under fire. I too have come to this conclusion, based on what I have been noticing in my gameplay. I deposited money into 27 RTG's (rogues included) just to test the software today, nothing scientific but just to look at gameplay in many RTG's. It is unbelievable. I find that the worst casino's are those using the new multihand format and I would like ciphers input on this, and if you have ever tried to analyze the difference between the multihand BJ casinos and the single hand BJ casinos. I lost my money in every single multihand casino with an unbelievable amount of dealer BJ's and 21's to my 20's. In one of the casinos starting with the first hand played the dealer got 5 BJ's in a row and then pushed every hand 20, 17, 17, 19 after. I would like to know the probability of this if anyone can help. I am going to request my logs for the session from this particular casino and I will post them here you will be amazed.

Hi Black21jack; After you post those logs I'll covert them to Cipher strands and we can take a look at how they compare. Have a good one.

 

[caruso]

The chances of five consecutive blackjacks is 3,200,000 to one. Then there was the Reef Club player (Cassava) who also witnessed five consecutive blackjacks. Both claims remain unproven of course, and an awful lot of blackjack is played, so it could happen. Although the location of the hands within the session makes no difference, to actually face down five dealer blackjacks at the very start is pretty spectacular.

As always, to get a handle on the overall probability you need to look at the win / loss stats for the entire session (unless something EXTREMELY freaky happens along the way, like eight consecutive blackjacks), work out the SD and the probability thereof, add session hands played, and that's pretty much the total hands needed to see such a result in a fair game.

 

[jerseyguy11]

cipher, I have been saying this about RTG casinos from the very beginning. I'll reiterate, you win 30% of the time (if your lucky), house wins 70% of the time. I never play at RTG and never will after my experiences. If you think those strands are shocking, you should have seen my blackwidow/onluck/grand banks casino play in 2000. These trends do not show fair blackjack and havent since I played four years ago. Sorry for your losses cipher.

 

[DeMango]

I have two thoughts. There has to be a way to pay for all these bonuses. Consider the outrageous %'s or dollar ammounts at Connect to or American Grand! "Tweaking" the software just a tad would do it! Then how to pay for all the damage caused by The Pirate? Tweak the software some more! Doesn't have to be much, make the ev. 98% or so instead of 99.5% With their warped minds it really wouldn't be considered cheating, just changing the payout like changing the payout of a slot machine

 

[cipher]

cipher, I have been saying this about RTG casinos from the very beginning. I'll reiterate, you win 30% of the time (if your lucky), house wins 70% of the time. I never play at RTG and never will after my experiences. If you think those strands are shocking, you should have seen my blackwidow/onluck/grand banks casino play in 2000. These trends do not show fair blackjack and havent since I played four years ago. Sorry for your losses cipher.

Hi Jersey; in this business losses can be and at times, even should be expected as long as they are accumulated in a fair game. In this instance the losses sustained are more than worth it considering the lessons learned.

After better than 7,000,000 hands of blackjack played and logged I think I've got a pretty fair idea of what is and is not being manipulated and in my opinion this RTG "BS" of late is being manipulated.

 

[dominique]

I tend to stay out of these threads as I am not skilled enough to make any observations regarding the honesty of BJ games.

I have to say though that I, too, have noticed a change in RTG BJ. It has always been streaky and that can be played along with, but lately I have noticed something different, and it is exactly what Cipher says here:

particularly the fact that I had noticed an alarming amount of single wins for the player but a staggering amount of consecutive win clumps in favor of the house and that this pattern seemed to be getting worse rather than evening out or getting better.

Thank you Cipher, for comfirming that.

 

[Vesuvio]

Just wondering, Cipher, what's your opinion of Playtech BJ?

I've been playing at some of their casinos recently & have to adopt a varied staking pattern just to have a chance of surviving all the losses and making something from the very occasional runs in favour of the player.

Might ask for logs at one casino, but was able to get the last 92 hands from the history button - Played 92, won 33, pushed 7, lost 52. Longest winning run for the player - 2 hands, which occurred 5 times. The dealer twice had 6 wins in a row, and 18 times won 2+ in a row. I wouldn't mind so much, but this wasn't the worst session I had this morning!

 

[cipher]

Just wondering, Cipher, what's your opinion of Playtech BJ?

I've been playing at some of their casinos recently & have to adopt a varied staking pattern just to have a chance of surviving all the losses and making something from the very occasional runs in favour of the player.

Might ask for logs at one casino, but was able to get the last 92 hands from the history button - Played 92, won 33, pushed 7, lost 52. Longest winning run for the player - 2 hands, which occurred 5 times. The dealer twice had 6 wins in a row, and 18 times won 2+ in a row. I wouldn't mind so much, but this wasn't the worst session I had this morning!

Hi Vesuvio; To be honest I've not had much play at any of the Playtech casino recently. But I will say that a year or so ago I made a pretty good chunk of change, mainly with Aspinalls, Golden Nugget, Del Rio, Carnival and New York casinos.

It wasn't until I noticed some real funny things going on with Casino Fortune and Miami Beach casino that I totally stopped playing Playtech. Have a good one.

 

[chucho]

Hi Vesuvio; To be honest I've not had much play at any of the Playtech casino recently. But I will say that a year or so ago I made a pretty good chunk of change, mainly with Aspinalls, Golden Nugget, Del Rio, Carnival and New York casinos.

It wasn't until I noticed some real funny things going on with Casino Fortune and Miami Beach casino that I totally stopped playing Playtech. Have a good one.

I would be curious to see Playtech results as I feel that their BJ play is the least "natural" Gold Club is in a close second, I mostly lose at GC but when I win I win big. Last week for example at Gold Club the dealer had 15 BJ to 0. By the time I zeroed out, I had 3 BJ's to a dealer 18. I also played at Gold Club and managed to lose a $200 starting balance in about $300 of play doing $10-$15 bets. I also managed to win $900 at Gold Club the other day, won probably 70% of the hands including some $100+ splits and doubles. Moral of the story, the switch is ON ON ON, it is finally OFF one day and I am rich! Is it too much to ask for a "natural" game? In my opinion, the only place you can get a game simular land based play is at Crockfords, but it is too slow.

 

[jerseyguy11]

Hi Jersey; in this business losses can be and at times, even should be expected as long as they are accumulated in a fair game. In this instance the losses sustained are more than worth it considering the lessons learned.

After better than 7,000,000 hands of blackjack played and logged I think I've got a pretty fair idea of what is and is not being manipulated and in my opinion this RTG "BS" of late is being manipulated.

i have to disagree, I dont think this RTG BS is "of late". My first or second post on this board codemned RTG casinos. This is nothing new to me.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/search

"Basically any RealTimeGaming Software Casino is bad."

Of course losses can be expected cipher, but I too have played probably
2,000,000 hands of blackjack or more. When I consistently lost nearly 70-75% of my hands or more on RTG casinos (especially when I bet higher which makes me believe certain RTG casinos can impose a "limit", "switch" or whatever you want to call it), I stopped playing them. I really wish I had logged my play from 2000.

 

[jerseyguy11]

I want to stress that I believe no matter what software a casino has (playtech, MG, Boss etc) it really depends on which casino chooses to "fool around" with the software and which casino doesnt. Anyway thats my opinion. So while there may be some good RTG casinos out there, I havent encountered one yet and im not about to go out of my way to look for one.

 

[cipher]

i have to disagree, I dont think this RTG BS is "of late". My first or second post on this board codemned RTG casinos. This is nothing new to me.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/search

"Basically any RealTimeGaming Software Casino is bad."

I really wish I had logged my play from 2000.

Hi Jersey; Ya know I think you can still reguest those log data files through the casinos that you played at. Additionally, my reference to "of late" was in reference to the fact that I'm now aware of the fact that there are quite a few players (not unlike yourself Jersey) that have in fact lost in the tens of thousands of dollars up to and including hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Have a good one.

 

[jerseyguy11]

Hi Jersey; Ya know I think you can still reguest those log data files through the casinos that you played at. Additionally, my reference to "of late" was in reference to the fact that I'm now aware of the fact that there are quite a few players (not unlike yourself Jersey) that have in fact lost in the tens of thousands of dollars up to and including hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Have a good one.

regardless of how much someone loses, what matter is did they lose it to fair gameplay (when i say fair i mean vegas fair, not "antigua rules" fair lol). And i have a lot of sympathy for those who've lose so much money. I have even more sympathy to those who've lose it to crooked blackjack.

 

[Phoenician]

Lastly, I brought this to the attention of Dean at the Phoenician casino even to the point of alerting Dean of the fact that I would be posting this post as well as the attached Cipher strand. I would be very careful about playing at any RTG casino as the data that I've recorded over the last month or so seems to have become the "norm" and that is not good for the player.

From my position and my groups position we do not believe that there is anything wrong with the real time gaming software and we have and always will take up serious player issues ( like issues cipher and others have raised in the past ) with real time gaming. we have a significant investment in the industry and it is as important to us as it is to our players that the software does play true. the distribution over millions and tens of millions of hands is well and truely in line with expectations.

These are some of the facts for other players to consider and to take into consideration when reading ciphers posts.

- overall cipher is winning at our casinos - he is a good blackjack player
- the session data that cipher posts is selective - he also has winning sessions
- overall all our games are playing within house expectations
- we dont have any control over the game play of the software and in my opinion neither would rtg or any other major software supplier - think about it , if there was a 'switch' it only takes one disgruntled employee to blow the lid and they would be out of business - the fact is all casino games have a house edge that is why casinos exist online and offline!
- we are not a rogue casino group , we pay our players , we sort out any issues ( not that there are ever many ) , if we were corrupt then why would we bother to participate in forums , pay our players timely , pay our affiliates timely.
- there are many many players who post and / or lurk on these forums that have won some very decent amounts from us and have been paid without problem and promptly

i also play blackjack ( not very well mind you ) at some of RTG casinos as well as others and i also play blackjack at land based casinos - i am generally a flat bettor , i just flat bet a little more when i am winning . i have experienced sessions like the ones that cipher has posted online and offline as i am sure many of us have. i have also experienced winning sessions which would be the exact reverse of what cipher has also posted. i am not sure that 23 hands of blackjack in conclusive evidence that our casino or our software providor has done something wrong.

cheers


Dean

 

[lanidar]

I want to stress that I believe no matter what software a casino has (playtech, MG, Boss etc) it really depends on which casino chooses to "fool around" with the software and which casino doesnt.

I've been saying that ever since I started playing Blackjack over two years ago.
AND...I play about 700 hands per day.

 

[Lurkio]

I've been saying that ever since I started playing Blackjack over two years ago.
AND...I play about 700 hands per day.

Heres a FACT from a webmaster/affiliate who knows..

YOU CAN NOT MANIPULATE RTG SOFTWARE AS AN OPERATOR..END of story.

I have 2 very close friends who work for operators and I have seen the back end in detail too...and No, its not the Phoenician.

 

[Lurkio]

I read this board every day and Im amazed at some the assumptions people make here..my views are as an affiliate..I play very rarely ( and Im no good..it doesnt do much for me) but I have good idea of which software makes what with my traffic ..and they are all "about" the same.

If RTG could scam people with the software surely I'd make much more with them ?

I know, I know..they shave my stats! thats it.. pluueeaaassee..the sky is falling!

 

[largeeyes]

I think this thread is just silly. How can you post a few dozen hands as some proof of rigging? Post a few thousand CONSECUTIVE hands adn then we'll talk.

 

[Lurkio]

Yes, i agree..silly enough to make me start to post..i am very shy!

Too much crying here these days..you gamble you pay..its almost like you have to whine to justify your losses.

I have other issues about affiliates and their "responsibility" to the surfers they send to casinos..but Ill start a thread about that.

 

[cipher]

From my position and my groups position we do not believe that there is anything wrong with the real time gaming software and we have and always will take up serious player issues ( like issues cipher and others have raised in the past ) with real time gaming. we have a significant investment in the industry and it is as important to us as it is to our players that the software does play true. the distribution over millions and tens of millions of hands is well and truely in line with expectations.

These are some of the facts for other players to consider and to take into consideration when reading ciphers posts.

- overall cipher is winning at our casinos - he is a good blackjack player
- the session data that cipher posts is selective - he also has winning sessions
- overall all our games are playing within house expectations
- we dont have any control over the game play of the software and in my opinion neither would rtg or any other major software supplier - think about it , if there was a 'switch' it only takes one disgruntled employee to blow the lid and they would be out of business - the fact is all casino games have a house edge that is why casinos exist online and offline!
- we are not a rogue casino group , we pay our players , we sort out any issues ( not that there are ever many ) , if we were corrupt then why would we bother to participate in forums , pay our players timely , pay our affiliates timely.
- there are many many players who post and / or lurk on these forums that have won some very decent amounts from us and have been paid without problem and promptly

i also play blackjack ( not very well mind you ) at some of RTG casinos as well as others and i also play blackjack at land based casinos - i am generally a flat bettor , i just flat bet a little more when i am winning . i have experienced sessions like the ones that cipher has posted online and offline as i am sure many of us have. i have also experienced winning sessions which would be the exact reverse of what cipher has also posted. i am not sure that 23 hands of blackjack in conclusive evidence that our casino or our software providor has done something wrong.

cheers


Dean

Hi Dean; It's always good to have comments directly from the owner.

Let me ask you Dean how many decks of cards is the Realtime Gaming software for Blackjack set-up for? In other words Dean, how many decks of cards is Realtime Gaming blackjack dealt with?

To your direct knowledge is there any way in which the number of decks can be manipulated on the casino's end. Or in other words do you have direct knowledge of a process whereby the number of decks incident to Realtime Gaming blackjack can be increased and or decreased according to the casinos desired effect?

If the answer to that last question is: Yes, the number of decks can be manipulated. At what point would you consider that manipulation as being fair to the player?

Dean, if you take a look at the various Cipher strands that I've posted on the Casinomeister website there are far and away more winning sessions than losing sessions. I'd be interested to know why you would want to infer otherwise?

Now Dean, you've made comments such as this on numerous occassions...

"There are many players who post and/or lurk on these forums that have won some very decent amounts from us and have been paid without problem and promptly." Would you care to offer any form of verifiable proof of such wins? And are any of these "decent wins" equal to the many tens of thousands of dollars that have been lost by some the folks who post and lurk here on the Casinomeister website? Have a good one.

 

[jerseyguy11]

all due respect to "lurkio" and dean (its good to see that a casino responds publicly and its appreciated), isnt that what casinobar/casino on air was BS'ing a few years ago..

We dont rig our software, they said. it must have been a 1 in couple hundred million odds coincidence that the wizard of odds had such a bad session rofl. yada yada yada. keep spitting out the nonsense.

also dean, if a casino has tight internal controls a disgruntled employee couldnt and wouldnt leak the "switch". I suppose casinobar lacked these controls lol.

"Heres a FACT from a webmaster/affiliate who knows..

YOU CAN NOT MANIPULATE RTG SOFTWARE AS AN OPERATOR..END of story.

I have 2 very close friends who work for operators and I have seen the back end in detail too...and No, its not the Phoenician."

well lurkio, i can now sleep at night. A guy named lurkio with 3 posts assures me that RTG software cannot be rigged. You graduated from MIT or Caltech i presume? You know for a "fact" that a casino with millions upon millions of dollars cant hire a few smart programmers to manipulate an already made software. My friend was a "hacker" which played a game online. He constantly made "cheats" and "hacks" which allowed him to manipulate the games software and he was a lot less funded than some of these rich casinos. And these were ELECTRONICS ARTS online games (huge company). EA couldnt stop him from using these programs.

so you'll have to excuse me if i believe my own eyes on some of the ridiculous losing streaks, 5 blackjacks in a row and "coincidental" 20's evertime I increased my bet at some of these crooked casinos. Casinobar/Casino On air INCLUDED. Dont get me wrong, i dont bitch everytime I lose money and im not a sore loser. I just call it how i see it END OF STORY (as you put it).

 

[jerseyguy11]

oh and i have lost a good amount of money to groups i dont bitch about. before i made money at Fortune lounge, i was down about 5k. I have always spoken highly about them. They are one of the best groups out there.

I lost 1k at casinowebcam and still find them fine (obviously they are a different situation being live bj). I lost about 3k on gaming club and i dont talk poorly about them. so dont imply that im a sore loser, im truly not.

 

[Lurkio]

Err on one hand it seems phoenician has a sterling reputation from this board..then you lose there,so its their fault and then you post and "infer" that they manipulate software..which also damages ALL casinos on that software.

Personally I find that irresponsible on a public board..the damage is done..I'd be spitting nails.

I am lucky i guess..i have never NOT been paid as an affiliate by ANY casino...maybe id be bitching if i had..maybe not..i look at the bottom line as do most professional webmasters.

I couldnt give a rats backside about your hacker mate..they are worse than any rogue casino operator..you think if a major software provider like RTG / MGS or playtech got hacked they wouldnt be aware of it!..or couldnt dtop it!?? you are dreaming!

..and dont be such a post snob! just because i lurk and dont post doesnt mean i cant read or have opinions! I have been sending casino traffic for over 5 years and I know a little about how they operate at least from an affiliates view..so my opinions arent clouded by losing to them..

nothing personal ..just playing devils advocate here..it all seems very one sided..the casinos,dean or any other seem damned if they do , damned if they dont!

 

[DeMango]

Untill there is a real accounting firm or other interface that plays the software and gives us true reports, no one will be satisfied that all software plays a fair game. The very fact that every hand of BJ is freshly dealt makes it a different game from a land casino. I have stopped playing BJ recreationally (only for WR) untill I'm satisfied as to the fairness of the game. My results with RTG, Crypto and MG have not been up to expectations.

 

[Phoenician]

Let me ask you Dean how many decks of cards is the Realtime Gaming software for Blackjack set-up for? In other words Dean, how many decks of cards is Realtime Gaming blackjack dealt with?

To your direct knowledge is there any way in which the number of decks can be manipulated on the casino's end. Or in other words do you have direct knowledge of a process whereby the number of decks incident to Realtime Gaming blackjack can be increased and or decreased according to the casinos desired effect?

If the answer to that last question is: Yes, the number of decks can be manipulated. At what point would you consider that manipulation as being fair to the player?

Dean, if you take a look at the various Cipher strands that I've posted on the Casinomeister website there are far and away more winning sessions than losing sessions. I'd be interested to know why you would want to infer otherwise?

Now Dean, you've made comments such as this on numerous occassions...

"There are many players who post and/or lurk on these forums that have won some very decent amounts from us and have been paid without problem and promptly." Would you care to offer any form of verifiable proof of such wins? And are any of these "decent wins" equal to the many tens of thousands of dollars that have been lost by some the folks who post and lurk here on the Casinomeister website? Have a good one.

1. the RTG casinos can determine the number of decks used in the blackjack games from between 2-8 decks from memory. it is not an insignificant task to change the number of decks ( i also believe it can only be done when there are no active sessions ) , it is something that happens system wide , it cannot be linked to an individual player or outcome or anything. in other words you cannot change the number of decks during a game or to alter a result of a game in progress. i am not a maths giant but my understanding there is little variation between 2 and 8 decks anyway. there is no function in the rtg software that changes the number of decks to conicide players play at all. the right answer to your question is the decks can be changed but they cannot be used to manipulate the outcome of a game.

2. re infering you have posted losing sessions - i am discussing this thread cipher where you have inferred that our casino is manipulating software and i am simply pointing out that you are winning at our casino and this particular session that you are using to prove your point is 23 hands.

3. re player wins - i can post here many players winning sessions but what will that prove and i certainly would not feel right about posting players data without permission first. there are plenty of players that have won and cashed out of our casino cipher and i am sure that you know that.

btw i could ( but wont ) also ask you to substantiate that do you have any proof of such losses from people.

cipher you and i have had a good history over various matters and i do not wish to run around in circles on this issue with you. you believe that we manipulate the software then that is sad but it is what you believe. my response to your comments is we do not manipulate software we run a professional operation and i believe we have professional integrity. you have stated your position and i have stated mine/ours. personally i am dissappointed that questioning the integrity of my operation also questions my personal integrity which is a shame.

cheers


dean

 

[jerseyguy11]

Err on one hand it seems phoenician has a sterling reputation from this board..then you lose there,so its their fault and then you post and "infer" that they manipulate software..which also damages ALL casinos on that software.

Personally I find that irresponsible on a public board..the damage is done..I'd be spitting nails.

I am lucky i guess..i have never NOT been paid as an affiliate by ANY casino...maybe id be bitching if i had..maybe not..i look at the bottom line as do most professional webmasters.

I couldnt give a rats backside about your hacker mate..they are worse than any rogue casino operator..you think if a major software provider like RTG / MGS or playtech got hacked they wouldnt be aware of it!..or couldnt dtop it!?? you are dreaming!

..and dont be such a post snob! just because i lurk and dont post doesnt mean i cant read or have opinions! I have been sending casino traffic for over 5 years and I know a little about how they operate at least from an affiliates view..so my opinions arent clouded by losing to them..

nothing personal ..just playing devils advocate here..it all seems very one sided..the casinos,dean or any other seem damned if they do , damned if they dont!

well friend isnt the right word. more like, person i knew from the game (when i played it i was like 14 years old). i hated him for hacking he was a jerk. in the end EA couldnt do anything to stop his programs so they shut the game down online. Thats how easy it is to manipulate software. Thats the point im trying to make.

Theres a guy named Professor I. Nelson Rose. a simple search on google for "professor online gambling" will return info on him and his articles. I've read his articles for a few years now.


"It is still a crime for someone in California to bet on a sport events. No ethical lawyer would ever tell you to break the law. But I have not found one reported case, in the history of the United States and Canada, of a player being arrested for making a bet on the Internet.

It also does not mean that betting on the Internet is safe. You might not be committing a crime, but how about the operator? Is an unlicenced operator going to run an honest game?"


Old / Expired Link

 

[cipher]

1. the RTG casinos can determine the number of decks used in the blackjack games from between 2-8 decks from memory. it is not an insignificant task to change the number of decks ( i also believe it can only be done when there are no active sessions ) , it is something that happens system wide , it cannot be linked to an individual player or outcome or anything. in other words you cannot change the number of decks during a game or to alter a result of a game in progress. i am not a maths giant but my understanding there is little variation between 2 and 8 decks anyway. there is no function in the rtg software that changes the number of decks to conicide players play at all. the right answer to your question is the decks can be changed but they cannot be used to manipulate the outcome of a game.

2. re infering you have posted losing sessions - i am discussing this thread cipher where you have inferred that our casino is manipulating software and i am simply pointing out that you are winning at our casino and this particular session that you are using to prove your point is 23 hands.

3. re player wins - i can post here many players winning sessions but what will that prove and i certainly would not feel right about posting players data without permission first. there are plenty of players that have won and cashed out of our casino cipher and i am sure that you know that.

btw i could ( but wont ) also ask you to substantiate that do you have any proof of such losses from people.

cipher you and i have had a good history over various matters and i do not wish to run around in circles on this issue with you. you believe that we manipulate the software then that is sad but it is what you believe. my response to your comments is we do not manipulate software we run a professional operation and i believe we have professional integrity. you have stated your position and i have stated mine/ours. personally i am dissappointed that questioning the integrity of my operation also questions my personal integrity which is a shame.

cheers


dean

No Dean, "the right answer to your question is the decks can be changed." and you do not know if they can or cannot be used to manipulate the out come of the game. Do you?

Don't you think it would be nice or maybe even fair for the player to know if he or she is playing with a 2, 8 or for that matter a 38 deck shoe?

The 23 hand session you refer to is an exemplar of a session played at the Phoenician. I can see where you would have loved for me to keep playing in that type of game where there is no more than one winning wager in a row for the player but multiple winning clumps for your house. I guess that's the difference between me and more than a few people that didn't have sense enough to cut that kind of nonsense off because they couldn't see that trend developing but instead they just waited through tens of thousands of dollars for your system to even out. I mean after all Dean says his game is fair so it must be.

I'll tell you what I'll do Dean. I'll make contact tomorrow with some of your customers. Who have sent there log data files to me and incident to the loss of tens of thousand of dollars. All of those sessions (by the way) bearing the same "one and done" characteristics as that 23 hand session. I'll ask those people for permission to post their data.

In the meantime why don't you contact some of those big winners you refer to and get their permission to post that information.

Finally, Dean the operative word in your last paragraph is "HAD."

 

[Phoenician]

I mean after all Dean says his game is fair so it must be.

and you say it isnt so it must not be !

Cipher - i dont have any more to add to this conversation and i am not going to get involved in a slugging match with you or anyone else , i have said what i have to say i see no sense in going around in circles. You do what you feel you have to do.

cheers


dean

 

[Simmo!]

OK i'm not getting involved in the goodness/badness of this particular cipher strand as i don't play RTG casinos, however something intrigues me.

Phoenician (and one or two other RTG's like iNetBet etc) seem to have good reputation around these parts in general - so why do they use RTG who seem to be blighted by casinos giving them a bad name? And then end up having to defend themselves in threads like this one. If it was me, i'd be on a Crypto or MG platform like greased lightening!

Is it a complicated process to switch? Or is it because RTG are less stringent in regulating?

 

[ftg]

Serveral Comments:
1. We can never tell online casinos cheat or not without looking at the program codes, especially if they cheat professionally.

2. If online casinos cheat, I believe only the casino software providers have the "switch", but no operators - too risky to have that switch accessible for the operator - and operators and provider are on the same boat.

3. Enlightening by Simmo, how come there is not a single casino group having different brands for different popular software platforms (Willima Hill do have 2 platform but that's probably not their target to create different branding for different software)? Wouldn't it be nice to see Dean to have 4 different casinos running BM, Crypto, MG and RTG so that their group can cover almost everyone that gamble online?

4. For the payout reports, I do see casinos using crypto sometimes have over 100% payout for TABLE games but never seen at MG or RTG casinos. Why? For me, it's very natural even the house will have a bad month but seems never for MG or RTG (or BOSS?).

 

[Simmo!]

4. For the payout reports, I do see casinos using crypto sometimes have over 100% payout for TABLE games but never seen at MG or RTG casinos. Why? For me, it's very natural even the house will have a bad month but seems never for MG or RTG (or BOSS?).

I have a theory on this. I can only speak from a Video Poker angle, but MG have 2 VP games with 99.93%+ (JoB & DW multihand) expected returns and Crypto has Double Bonus with 99.94%. I suspect Table games are similar too. But, MG (& RTG for that matter) has "Reverse Withdrawal" whereas Crypto generally uses Ecash which is instant. Thus, i reckon, most players reverse withdrawals on MG when they run out (the "oh go on, one more try" theory!) whereas Crypto players go and do the washing up.

Just my theory - and why i always ask MG casinos to bring the RW down to 1 hour before i play

Oh - ftg - just an aside. Will Hill use Crypto i know, but whats the second platform???

 

[ftg]

Oh - ftg - just an aside. Will Hill use Crypto i know, but whats the second platform???

They have got BM for their Euro version:

Old / Expired Link

 

[caruso]

Re. number of decks: the "default" is four. You can be sure no operator uses less than that, so two decks isn't happening. The difference in house edge between four and eight decks is 0.1%, - 0.49% as opposed to 0.59%. This doesn't have any impact on player strategy. If you want to be "sure", then assume six decks - that's what I do.

If you want to go one better, stop playing RTG blackjack and play pontoon. That is a GUARENTEED eight deck game, and the house edge is three times lower at 0.17%, so you'll lose three times less. Comp points shave it right down to the bone, although a vague memory is telling me Phonecian don't offer comps for pontoon play - correct me if I'm wrong. Some RTGs have better than average comp programmes.

For those concerned about "trends" and "streaks", I would suggest you're looking at the bark on the trees and not the forest. A bunch of wins here and there doesn't tell you anything. One session doesn't tell you much either, but it's better than looking at "clumps" of this and that over four or five hands. Better still, look at the win / loss stats for a collection of sessions. Better still, look at your TOTAL win / loss stats, ignoring bet size. If you want to examine bet size you need to look at all bets of that particular size, you can't mix them all together and try to draw conclusions - this would be no more valid with real cards than with virtual ones online.

 

[jerseyguy11]

I guess that's the difference between me and more than a few people that didn't have sense enough to cut that kind of nonsense off because they couldn't see that trend developing but instead they just waited through tens of thousands of dollars for your system to even out.

I didnt have the sense :/

 

[bethug]

I just won 400 buck in less than a hour playing a rtg casino, looking at cipher logs, i would have done well with my hood 3000 system.
I have won more money with rtg casinos then any others.

 

[bpb]

For those concerned about "trends" and "streaks", I would suggest you're looking at the bark on the trees and not the forest. A bunch of wins here and there doesn't tell you anything. One session doesn't tell you much either, but it's better than looking at "clumps" of this and that over four or five hands. Better still, look at the win / loss stats for a collection of sessions. Better still, look at your TOTAL win / loss stats, ignoring bet size. If you want to examine bet size you need to look at all bets of that particular size, you can't mix them all together and try to draw conclusions - this would be no more valid with real cards than with virtual ones online.

Good post.

A lot of gamblers go broke looking for "trends". Thats why casinos hand out cards for tracking previous hands at the Baccarat tables. That's why all roulette tables now have display boards showing the past 20+ numbers. These trend seekers can only hurt themselves by deviating from optimal play due to something they see in the trend.

But regarding online "trends", here's the problem I have. Either a casino is dealing a fair game, or they are manipulating the deal to increase the house advantage. If they were to manipulate a blackjack game, they would likely opt for simple change such as, when the dealer is drawing to a 16, if the first card off is a bust card, discard it and draw again (having the 2nd card play regardless of whether its a bust card or not). This simple change would increase the house advantage in a fairly subtle way. Such a change could easily be triggered by bet size, etc.

However, to think that a casino is manipulating the deal in a way that can not only be detected, but exploited via manipulating bet size is incomprehensible to me. If a casino is going to cheat, wouldn't they have the resources and desire to do so correctly, ie in a way that is not easily detectable, and certainly not exploitable.

 

[sw2003]

Attachments to above post:

Usually Cipher strand screenshots are rather clear and easy to see! This time the two screenshots are so tiny and vague that I can't see a thing.

 

[cipher]

Usually Cipher strand screenshots are rather clear and easy to see! This time the two screenshots are so tiny and vague that I can't see a thing.

Hi SW2003; I don't know what the difference is one day they turn out crisp and then the next day they turn out like you've said. I'm going to try re-posting them in a bit. Have a good one.

 

[cipher]

Usually Cipher strand screenshots are rather clear and easy to see! This time the two screenshots are so tiny and vague that I can't see a thing.

Re-post of Cipher strand from 8 30 04 for clarification. Have a good one.

 

[cipher]

I've attached three Cipher Strands. One for Phoenician today, one for Casino Fortune today and one for Oasis casino & sports book for today.

The "one and done" routine at the Phoenician is still very prevalent today and checking back it has been prevalent for some six days in a row now. Have a good one.

 

[sw2003]

I've attached three Cipher Strands. One for Phoenician today, one for Casino Fortune today and one for Oasis casino & sports book for today.

The "one and done" routine at the Phoenician is still very prevalent today and checking back it has been prevalent for some six days in a row now. Have a good one.

I have seen something similar to the first Phoenician result at a Cryptologic casino. That session started off insane for about 30 hands but eventually it normalized. The second screenshot of Phoenician is kind of insane if you are the player. Oasis's one is also bad but the result from CF doesn't seem too horrible by comparison. The last one has at least 3 or 4 blocks of green.

Oh thanks Cipher for reposting with better screenshots!

 

[bethug]

cipher, what software do u you think is fair?

 

[cipher]

cipher, what software do u you think is fair?

Hi Bethug; That's a great question and to be honest Bethug that basically changes everyday. But when I go into the office every morning I review the Cipher strands (that have been recorded over the previous evening) which generally have about 7 hours or so recorded on them and then I make my decisions for play based on those Cipher strands. Have a good one.

 

[eek]

So you're talking about a dynamic situation, dependent on the results of the immediate prior period.

Do I smell some subject matter for a whole new thread...

 

[natophonic]

Attachments to above post:

I can't seem to read these pics, the resolution seems too low. I'm not sure what a 'cipher strand' is... is there some sort of automated play that allows for a high number of hands/spins/rolls/whatever to establish 'read world' odds?

... ahem ... I read further on and found bitmaps in .zip files that I could read. So I gather you've got some sort of windows or java app that you've done that gathers these statistics?

Also, is there any 'easy' way to correlate your stats (e.g., overall games 23/60 38.33%) to the 97-98% 'payout' rates that most of the online casinos advertise?

 

[jpm]

Are you using Win XP natophonic? If so, it will automatically size pictures to fit the screen and thus screw up the readability of them. Try this, open one of the cipher strand pictures and then hover your mouse over the lower right corner of the picture. When you see the orange box pop up with the arrows in each corner, click on it and see if that improves the picture.