Reef casino rigged?

[Freudian]

Everything seemed normal. I was a bit up with 1/3 of the wagering requirements for the bonus to go. Then the most insane stuff started happening.

In the next 96 hands I lost 55 betting units (out of 113 units betted). I lost 70 hands, pushed four and won 24. If I calculate everything correctly, I was -4.85 SD down for these 96 hands. The odds of having a 96 hand-session with as poor result as this is something like 1 in 200000 or more (im sure someone can calculate this exactly).

Obviously now im up sh*t creek, still having to wager 1500$ at a casino I am convinced doesn't deal a fair game. Suggestions?

 

[cipher]

Everything seemed normal. I was a bit up with 1/3 of the wagering requirements for the bonus to go. Then the most insane stuff started happening.

In the next 96 hands I lost 55 betting units (out of 113 units betted). I lost 70 hands, pushed four and won 24. If I calculate everything correctly, I was -4.85 SD down for these 96 hands. The odds of having a 96 hand-session with as poor result as this is something like 1 in 200000 or more (im sure someone can calculate this exactly).

Obviously now im up sh*t creek, still having to wager 1500$ at a casino I am convinced doesn't deal a fair game. Suggestions?

Hi Freudian, suggestion, take your lumps now and do not return to any casino that you suspect of running a rigged game. You'll be much better off in the long term. Have a good one.

 

[Freudian]

Hi Freudian, suggestion, take your lumps now and do not return to any casino that you suspect of running a rigged game. You'll be much better off in the long term. Have a good one.

I try to keep track of the bad ones and avoid them. But this is a sistercasino to Casino on Net, which I have tried previously and thought was dealing a fair game.

Of course there is a minimal chance I just was very very very unlucky.

 

[caruso]

There is no such casino - you mean "Reef Club". It helps to have at least the name correct in the title. Without the CON reference I'd have been none the wiser.

Assuming 4.8 SDs is 200,000 to one, then you's need a random sample of 200,095 hands to expect one such run of 96 hands. That's within spitting distance of my last two Gambling Federation experiences, and I'd say you have valid cause for concern.

Oh no, hang on, silly me: take a look at the bottom right of the ReefClub homepage and lo and behold, what do we see? "Certified by Ecogra".

So Ecogra, via PWC, have analysed the Cassava software and declared it "fair". And also bear in mind that, within ONE DAY of opening, two years ago, ReefClub tried to screw a bunch of players out of their winnings after their first play:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

What a joke Ecogra is. Crook casinos, probably crooked software, rubber stamped by Ecogra. I hope nobody invests that nonsense with any credibility.

Freudian: have ReefClub issue you your game logs and post them here where they can be looked at by those posters who might be in a position to draw some meaningful conclusions.

 

[Freudian]

I finished my wagering requirements and I did pretty well in the last hands. So I am in the strange position of being able to cash out more than I deposited (with bonus) despite suspecting everything isn't kosher with the software. But that doesn't change the fact that during my playing there I had a session that is highly unlikely to happen. And that is always a reason to be weary when we talk about online casinos. And even earlier my eyebrows were raised a bit by five straight blackjacks for the dealer. So basically we have a casino that was ok 85% of the time and insanely rigged 15% of the time. In a way I would be more comfortable calling them out if it felt rigged non-stop. But my wallet surely is grateful for those 85%.

I'll get my money out and request logs. I just checked it through the in-program log function. The bad session ~100 hundred hands isn't such a big sample of course. But to reach almost -5 SD in so few hands the result has to be very extraordinary.

(if the admininstrator want to change the topic to say Reef Club, it would be appreciated).

 

[caruso]

Five consecutive dealer blackjacks? At ReefClub?

That's a 4,000,000 to one shot. Assuming you're not exaggerating, PLEASE post those logs.

 

[jetset]

"I'll get my money out and request logs. I just checked it through the in-program log function. The bad session ~100 hundred hands isn't such a big sample of course. But to reach almost -5 SD in so few hands the result has to be very extraordinary."

Yes, Freudian - please make all of your logs public and asap so that the genuine experts here can evaluate the situation. Some unbiased assessment and the facts will make a welcome change from Caruso's "the sky is falling" style posts.

"What a joke Ecogra is. Crook casinos, probably crooked software, rubber stamped by Ecogra. I hope nobody invests that nonsense with any credibility."

A typically irresponsible and inaccurate statement.

 

[Freudian]

Some small corrections. The in-casino viewer is buggy so it doesn't always show 8 new hands when pressing "next" or "previous" (basically every even 25 it repeats the hands to make the page end on an even 25/50/75/00). So when going through them again it is just 87 hands. I am down 45 betting units in those hands. I noticed two errors I made (not hitting on 12 vs 3, and standing on 16 vs 7 once) so that probably would have brought the result down to -41. Sorry for the mistakes there, I didn't expect the in game log viewer to show some results twice on a few pages. Unfortunately it only extends back 750 hands so the five BJ in a row can't be viewed that way. Have to get them by normal log.

So -41 betting units in 87 hands (100 betting units wagered) gives us -3,82 SD (somewhere around 1 in 10000 chance of that happening), which is closing in on "really really bad luck" territory and away from astronomical. Anyway, I'll have the logs available in a while.

 

[Freudian]

When asking for logs I just got sent some summary statistics (and 50$ got credited to my account for some reason) and when once again requesting logs I got the following message.

"Thank you for contacting Reef Club Casino.

xxxx, to view your individual hands please go to
"history" in the lobby. You can find the last 750 results of each game you have played there. This is the only records that we keep and it is very easy to access .

xxxx, I hope this is helpful to you. If you have any specific
enquiry we will be happy to check it for you if you give us the time and date
and any other relevant information.

Should you have any further comments or queries please feel free to
contact us at any time. We are here for you 24 hours a day, everyday
and are always happy to help."

So they don't keep logs for your play, which is pretty unusual. I did grab screenshots of all the logs for this bad run if anyone wants it. It is a giant .jpg. Unfortunately the five BJs in a row for the dealer is forever lost since I didn't think of grabbing a screenie of the log when it happened and did play a few thousand hands since then.

 

[murder1]

Dude don't go through the trouble of download and posting such a large file. Just take your money out and leave. You were fortune enough to survive the rigging. Now get to digging (out).

 

[caruso]

Of course they have the logs, they just don't want YOU to have them - for obvious reasons. If they didn't have them, how the hell do they then supply them to PWC for the monthly "verification"? What a con job.

Tell them if they refuse to supply them you're going to file an Ecogra complaint. Then, if they refuse again, file it and keep this thread updated. I'm sure Jetset can lend you a hand. It's your absolute right to access the logs of your own play, and they're absolutely trying to put one over you here.

 

[jetset]

Do not accept a situation if you are not happy with the treatment you received at the casino. Reef Club is an eCOGRA seal holder as part of CON, and as such it is required to comply with eGAP requirements.

If you have been unable to obtain satisfaction at casino level, then go to the ecogra site at www.ecogra.org and launch an online dispute. The Fair Gaming Advocate will investigate the issue and report back to you within a short timespan.

 

[The Dude]

If you have been unable to obtain satisfaction at casino level, then go to the ecogra site at www.ecogra.org and launch an online dispute. The Fair Gaming Advocate will investigate the issue and report back to you within a short timespan.

What he said.

 

[hahacasino]

every casino is rigged, don't even play!

play free games see if you can win.

if not, why risk real money? are you a banker? or a broker?

ic, ur a casino webmaster, make lots of easy $$$$$$$$$$, cool!

 

[Freudian]

After being lied to, they now sent me the logs. But with the players and dealers cards deleted. Do they think I am an idiot? The HTML they sent even had columns named "players cards" "dealers cards"...

Im seriously flabbergasted about the treatment I am getting from this casino.

 

[caruso]

Freudian, this was a rogue joint from the word go so don't waste your time being flabbergasted - do as has been suggested.

 

[bethug]

This is very sad, i will not play at casino on net, until reef club clear this up

 

[jetset]

Freudian - before this goes any further lodge a complaint.

 

[cipher]

Freudian - before this goes any further lodge a complaint.

Hi Jet;

Yes Freudian, I think this would be an ideal case for eCOGRA to sink its' teeth into and at this point I really do not think that any intervention on behalf of eCOGRA can hurt.

 

[hahacasino]

This is very sad, i will not play at casino on net, until reef club clear this up
__________________

too bad you are just a sand on the shore, i hope this thread on yahoo news headline!

********* dirty casinos, group ******************

 

[Freudian]

I already sent a complaint to eCOGRA when after my fourth attempt to get proper playing logs from them they refused (or they don't have them, or it will be too big for my HD or what excuse they last used) to send me logs with the players and dealers cards.

 

[spearmaster]

This will be interesting to see, for sure. A very good test indeed, though of course entirely dumb for Reef Club to even start down this road.

 

[jetset]

Freudian, what's happening with your eCOGRA complaint on this matter?

 

[Freudian]

eCOGRA helped me get the logs that the casino claimed they didn't have. If eCOGRA took further action against the casino I don't know.

I am attatching the logs of the five blackjacks in a row and the horrible streak if anyone is interested. Please note that apart from these two sections I did well at this casino. So I am not saying Reef Club Casino rips people off. I don't know if they do or don't. All I know is that two pretty rare events happened while playing there.

 

[Mugwump]

Wow....thats pretty sick. Reef uses the same software as Casino-on-Net?

I thought CON was supposed to be legitimate, how can it be if their software can be rigged to allow this? Even if they don't use the 'feature', it shouldn't be there in the first place.

 

[jetset]

Thanks, Freudian - what did the casino have to say?

 

[Freudian]

Thanks, Freudian - what did the casino have to say?

They sent a long mail. The central part I guess was this

"I have read the correspondence regarding your game history and I
completely understand your frustration. After my investigation I was
pleased to see the Reef Club Representatives had answered you
honestly and politely.

In recent months our company has updated our software to enhance the
playing quality and also administrative support capability for our
members. One of these upgrades included the ability to include player
and house hands when sending comprehensive game history logs, which
was not available before."

Which I guess is about the best that anyone can hope for. While some take their word for it, I am sure others believe it is a charade casino want to play to keep up appearances.

And they gave me some more money. Which is kinda weird because this had nothing to do with money at all. But I guess it is customary in this business, and I would be a fool to object.

I do suspect without Tex Reese and eCOGRA I would never have gotten my logs, so it was nice to see them taking this on even if it had nothing to do with money.

 

[caruso]

Any chance you can post your win / loss stats for that session? I could go through it but it'd take forever.

Five consecutive BJs is over three million to one for starters.

 

[jetset]

They sent a long mail. The central part I guess was this

"I have read the correspondence regarding your game history and I
completely understand your frustration. After my investigation I was
pleased to see the Reef Club Representatives had answered you
honestly and politely.

In recent months our company has updated our software to enhance the
playing quality and also administrative support capability for our
members. One of these upgrades included the ability to include player
and house hands when sending comprehensive game history logs, which
was not available before."

Which I guess is about the best that anyone can hope for. While some take their word for it, I am sure others believe it is a charade casino want to play to keep up appearances.

And they gave me some more money. Which is kinda weird because this had nothing to do with money at all. But I guess it is customary in this business, and I would be a fool to object.

I do suspect without Tex Reese and eCOGRA I would never have gotten my logs, so it was nice to see them taking this on even if it had nothing to do with money.

Noted with thanks.

 

[Freudian]

Any chance you can post your win / loss stats for that session? I could go through it but it'd take forever.

Five consecutive BJs is over three million to one for starters.

In 87 hands I lost 62, pushed four, won 21. With perfect strategy I would have been down 42 (three mistakes compared to basic strategy, two that I would have won, and one where I would have lost more with doubling on 11 vs T) units in these 87 hands, which is -3.91 SD.

In simpler terms I lost over 400$ in 87 hands with 5 and 10$ bets.

 

[bethug]

Jetset , con sister lied, i know u guys going to do something about this. Also it looks like the game was fixed. We need a better answer.

freudian, i would not took the money, they need to be expose

 

[GrandMaster]

eCOGRA helped me get the logs that the casino claimed they didn't have. If eCOGRA took further action against the casino I don't know.

I am attatching the logs of the five blackjacks in a row and the horrible streak if anyone is interested. Please note that apart from these two sections I did well at this casino. So I am not saying Reef Club Casino rips people off. I don't know if they do or don't. All I know is that two pretty rare events happened while playing there.

My estimate is that the probability of this losing session is about 1/15000. The probability of 5 BJs in a row is about 1/4000000. My experience at CON was very positive, I was winning consistently for several months.

 

[caruso]

My estimate is that the probability of this losing session is about 1/15000.

How do you figure that? 87 hands with 62 hand loss with accurate play is over six SDs. That's a hell of a lot more than 15,000 to one. In fact, it's off the chart.

Come on, over SIX SDs. That's impossible in a fair game.

EDIT: Brain back in. I missed the wins. That's still over four SDs

 

[Freudian]

My estimate is that the probability of this losing session is about 1/15000. The probability of 5 BJs in a row is about 1/4000000. My experience at CON was very positive, I was winning consistently for several months.

I ended up slightly plus at this casino, which is what makes it so weird. Long sessions of being slightly up, followed by these two rare happenings.

If I had really gotten nailed by this casino it would be easier to point fingers, but since I wasn't it doesn't make sense to me (from a 'lets fleece this guy' perspective). I don't know if I trust their game enough to deposit more money there, but I have been able to withdraw more money than I deposited at both CoN and Reef Club. I think I'll sort this under 'things that make you go '.

 

[hhcfreebie]

Although these records are extremely unlikely, my own experience with them was pretty positive. I'd been winning for over an year. In fact, I've never lost my own deposit in any given month.
Finally they decided to cut the loss and showed me the door.

 

[sirius]

Both those events should only happen once or twice in a player's lifetime and for them both to happen hours apart is incredible. The chance of the consecutive blackjacks in a fair game was 1 in 4.1 million but this isn't so incredible given the number of hands a gambler will play in his life, but the subset of around 90 hands with the 3.91 SD result (as calculated by the player and I haven't verified this) is a 1 in 21661 chance for him to lose as much or worse! To find a subset of this amount of hands with this result should also only occur very few times in a player's lifetime.

The information doesn't prove the casino cheats. Assuming it was fair, Freudian had incredibly bad luck for both things to happen within hours. Can I ask if you logged out between the two events or were you always playing or connected to the casino?

I had dumped the casino group last year due to the Reef Club incident you can read about here when they launched the casino two years ago:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

(I never played Reef Club but I was recently stopped by CON from taking any more bonuses)

I also posted my Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) which might be easier to read.

 

[ftg]

Both those events should only happen once or twice in a player's lifetime and for them both to happen hours apart is incredible. The chance of the consecutive blackjacks in a fair game was 1 in 4.1 million but this isn't so incredible given the number of hands a gambler will play in his life, but the subset of around 90 hands with the 3.91 SD result (as calculated by the player and I haven't verified this) is a 1 in 21661 chance for him to lose as much or worse! To find a subset of this amount of hands with this result should also only occur very few times in a player's lifetime.

How do you calculate/conclude "the result should only occur very few times in a player's lifetime" based on the SD? Where can I get the information? Thanks.

I continueously got 2.5-3.5 sd for several weeks for almost every session in MG's Vegas Strip BJ some weeks ago and now I seldom play MG's BJ.

 

[HateMG]

I continueously got 2.5-3.5 sd for several weeks for almost every session in MG's Vegas Strip BJ some weeks ago and now I seldom play MG's BJ.

That's the same problem I'm having with MG Vegas Strip BJ which is supposedly offers house advantage of only 0.37%. I don't know how to calculate SD but constant downward pressure is just too much to handle (and yes I play perfect strategy). Sometimes I made 15-20 consecutive deposits of $100 and only maybe one I can get up to $500-$700. I think MG Video Poker games have better odds than BJ. Just recently I got a RF on 4 hands Joker Poker for $2500 and then, stupid me, decided to try my luck on VS BJ and of course blew everything up very quickly. That's why I HateMG.

 

[largeeyes]

That's the same problem I'm having with MG Vegas Strip BJ which is supposedly offers house advantage of only 0.37%. I don't know how to calculate SD but constant downward pressure is just too much to handle (and yes I play perfect strategy). Sometimes I made 15-20 consecutive deposits of $100 and only maybe one I can get up to $500-$700. I think MG Video Poker games have better odds than BJ. Just recently I got a RF on 4 hands Joker Poker for $2500 and then, stupid me, decided to try my luck on VS BJ and of course blew everything up very quickly. That's why I HateMG.

Uh.....You are trying to make 5-7x your money and expect it to happen a lot? That doesn't sounds that odd at all.

 

[HateMG]

Uh.....You are trying to make 5-7x your money and expect it to happen a lot? That doesn't sounds that odd at all.

Of course I'm not expecting for this to happen a lot but I also don't expect to lose 2K in $20000-30000 in wagers. Also 5-7x is not that uncommon unless you flat bet $2. Just last weekend I registered with Nostalgia and get my initial deposit of $200 to $1200 with $5-$25 bets in BJ and C21. Sometimes I managed to win 20-40x of my initial deposit but that happened mostly in Wagerlogic casinos for me playing BJ and sometimes in MG mostly when I played VP and hit RF(I had 5 of them already).