Casino Robots

[Sodax77]

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

(info from gambling-pro.com newsletter)

 

[lanidar]

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

(info from gambling-pro.com newsletter)

Is this similar to what Lucky Nugget uses?

 

[jpm]

What do you mean Lanidar? Are you talking about the Viper software or something else?

 

[Clayman]

A little irresponsible to suggest

"Calculated after observing many thousands of hands of online Blackjack, the Casino Robots Advanced Strategy appears to eliminate the small percentage advantage usually enjoyed by online Casinos - thus tipping the scales in favour of the player."

 

[jpm]

I suppose that if you assume the scales are tipped heavily towards the casino, then tipping them back towards the player would be a more accurate statement. Unless its bringing its own cards to the table, its not going to eliminate the house edge

Did you notice the inference to this being the way the pirate of c21 won the $1.3mil?

 

[Clayman]

Did you notice the inference to this being the way the pirate of c21 won the $1.3mil?

Good point. I doubt more than very much if it's true.

Guess they forgot to mention, if it were true, and people had used their product, they would not have won anything.

 

[lanidar]

What do you mean Lanidar? Are you talking about the Viper software or something else?

I'm talking about the Autoplay that can be used when playing Blackjack. Is that considered a robot?

 

[jpm]

Ok, that's what I thought you meant.

I don't think you could really call that a robot, its more of a game mode. I would think of a robot as something that would run concurrently with the casino software and take the place of the player. If its programmed correctly, it will play perfect strategy and take any 'human error' out of the game and maximize your return. But it can't give you any more return than the games odds allow. In otherwords, it can't turn a negative expectation game into a positive one, which is what they seem to be intimating in their ad.

 

[lanidar]

Ok, that's what I thought you meant.

I would think of a robot as something that would run concurrently with the casino software and take the place of the player. If its programmed correctly, it will play perfect strategy and take any 'human error' out of the game and maximize your return.

Thank you JPM.
I truly appreciate your response and your opinion.
(You have ALL those little GREEN squares next to your name)
I'm not being argumentative...not at all.
I just don't know much about this and I'm curious.
When some one uses Autoplay isn't the casinos software playing against the casinos software...using perfect strategy

 

[jpm]

No problem Lanidar, I didn't think you were being arguementative at all.

I had the same thoughts regarding the casino playing against itself with the autoplay feature. I'm still not sure why they would give you a way to play perfect strategy on almost every game (though on slots, there really isn't such a thing). More than one person has said that you need to modify the strategy tables on the BJ games in order have the correct strategy for autoplay. It looks like the VP games are all playing correct strategy, at least the ones that I've done spot checks against Winpoker were right.

I guess since almost all, if not all, have a house edge, then they are still going to make money even if everyone plays perfect strategy. I don't think either of the deuces wild games are full pay, and those would be about the only ones I could think of that could give the player an advantage.

Now, if you add in comp points to a game with a very low house edge, you could potentially have a positive return (assuming they give you comps for those games).

 

[lanidar]

More than one person has said that you need to modify the strategy tables on the BJ games in order have the correct strategy for autoplay.

I know what the strategy tables are.
Why and how does one modify the tables?
What would be changed?
At Lucky Nugget I play Europen Blackjack.

Thank JPM...I don't mean to be a pain.
Every little bit of an edge helps.

 

[jpm]

I read someone here (maybe Clayman or Grandmaster) who said to check the strategy table in the casino game against the basic strategy chart on Wizard of Odds. As I recall, there were only a couple of changes that needed to be made.

Go into the game and make sure you're in expert mode. You should see the Autoplay button and a Strategy button below it. Click on the strategy button and you can check and if necessary modify the table. Then be sure to save your change before you go back to the game.

 

[lanidar]

Thanks JPM. :notworthy
I'm going to play European Blackjack tomorrow at Lucky Nugget.
I'll post my outcome.

 

[Clayman]

I'm still not sure why they would give you a way to play perfect strategy on almost every game

My guess is that Viper was a good way to replace the single-deck game that had a 0.1% HA to one 4 times worse, while being able to increase WR's by claiming they have now allowed the "bad" players to play perfectly.

I really don't know what the current Viper default auto-cheat strategy table is but I do know I had to change several plays to adjust to a double-deck game at the Fortune Room.

Has anyone else had to make changes to the default strategy table? If so, I wonder how much using the default strategy table would cost the player against each of the various BJ games offered. Is the default strategy table correct for ANY offered BJ game?

Lanidar - best thing is to get the right strategy for the game you are playing and compare it to the default table. Initially set Viper at a slow speed until you are sure it plays all the hands correctly. Strictly from memory (that means completely unreliable) I had to make it hit a 9 vs 2 rather than double. Stand on an A,7 vs 8 rather than hit, and hit an A,7 vs 10 rather than stand. These last 2 plays are rather costly if played wrong. Also I'd check out all the low pairs to make sure auto-cheat is splitting properly instead of doing goofy stuff like hitting a 6,6 vs 2.

 

[chucho]

Let's start by assuming the the Wizzard Of odd's Blackjack charts are correct. Then we should play Vegas Strip at Microgaming casinos as it has the best players odds, slightly better than Euro BJ. Then we should change 4 different default split options as set in the Viper software, 2,2, 3,3, 6,6, and 7,7. You can figure out what is wrong when comparing the default MG chart to the Wizzards chart. For example, the MG default autoplay settings have you split 3's against a dealer 7, when the correct play is to hit it. Now the real question is how can someone play at, for example, a Boss Media casino using autoplay? Is their such a software that works/exists and that is not detected my the casino?

 

[GrandMaster]

For example, the MG default autoplay settings have you split 3's against a dealer 7, when the correct play is to hit it.

No, the correct play is to split 3,3 vs 7 under any set of rules I can think of.

Here is my list of corrections to Viper autoplay default strategy:

Euro BJ
9 vs 2: double/hit
Soft 18 vs 8: stand
Soft 18 vs 10: hit
6,6 vs 2: split/hit

Vegas Downtown
Soft 18 vs 4,5,6: Double if possible, else stand

Atlantic City
Soft 18 vs 4,5,6: Double if possible, else stand
6,6 vs 7, 7,7 vs 8: Hit

Vegas Strip
Soft 18 vs 4,5,6: Double if possible, else stand
6,6 vs 7, 7,7 vs 8: Hit
9,9 vs 8 or 9: Split if possible, else stand.

 

[Clayman]

Euro BJ
9 vs 2: double/hit
Soft 18 vs 8: stand
Soft 18 vs 10: hit
6,6 vs 2: split/hit

Just what I remembered! I'm amazed.

I guess you have confirmed that the default is wrong for EVERY BJ game they offer.

If they were honest, they would make it play perfectly for at least one of the games. Heck, it would be simple to make auto-cheat play perfectly for each of the games - just make 4 or 5 tables. If they can do it for different VP games, they could do it for BJ.

Any chance you can easily figure out, guesstimate, how costly playing the default would be for any/all of the BJ games you mentioned? Just wondered how much extra the poor sucker who knows know better pays for using the auto-cheat. Probably not a huge amount but still....

 

[chucho]

No, the correct play is to split 3,3 vs 7 under any set of rules I can think of.

Here is my list of corrections to Viper autoplay default strategy:

Euro BJ
9 vs 2: double/hit
Soft 18 vs 8: stand
Soft 18 vs 10: hit
6,6 vs 2: split/hit

Vegas Downtown
Soft 18 vs 4,5,6: Double if possible, else stand

Atlantic City
Soft 18 vs 4,5,6: Double if possible, else stand
6,6 vs 7, 7,7 vs 8: Hit

Vegas Strip
Soft 18 vs 4,5,6: Double if possible, else stand
6,6 vs 7, 7,7 vs 8: Hit
9,9 vs 8 or 9: Split if possible, else stand.

I only checked Vegas Strip against the wizzards chart and the only thing that needs to be changed is 6,6 against a dealer 7 hit, not split, and 7,7 against a dealer 8, hit not split. Everything looked the same as the wizzards chart.

 

[lanidar]

Thanks JPM. :notworthy
I'm going to play European Blackjack tomorrow at Lucky Nugget.
I'll post my outcome.

I deposited $50 got the $200 bonus....
I was destroyed!!!
ALL GONE
My sons played here and this was the FIRST time we ever lost .
Just a bad day.

 

[GrandMaster]

I only checked Vegas Strip against the wizzards chart and the only thing that needs to be changed is 6,6 against a dealer 7 hit, not split, and 7,7 against a dealer 8, hit not split. Everything looked the same as the wizzards chart.

Read carefully what I wrote and check again.

 

[spearmaster]

If they were honest, they would make it play perfectly for at least one of the games.

It's not an honesty issue. It's more of a stupidity issue. You can be sure that the managers have been given quite a mouthful of choice words. Unfortunately, that's what happens when you try to do everything yourselves secretly without consulting some trusted people to verify certain things - this is one of Microgaming's biggest faults.

However, I trust that these bonehead mistakes will NO LONGER occur.

 

[Clayman]

However, I trust that these bonehead mistakes will NO LONGER occur.

To what bonehead mistakes are you referring? - just the fact that the default strategy table for BJ is wrong? If so, why do you think it will no longer occur?

Not that I've seen MG claim anywhere that their auto-cheat will play perfectly.
In fact I have some vague recollection they tried to make it emulate the play of the "average joe" who plays less than perfectly.

Are you saying you just think the Viper programmers are good at computers but not BJ and that it's an honest mistake it plays all BJ games wrong? I would think it harder to make it play VP perfectly which, from what I read, it does.

Surely by now they could offer a version that would play perfectly. They simply choose not to is my guess. They figure the players that would play perfectly anyway will change the table because they know what they are doing and the players that don't, won't. So why allow them to play better than they normally would.

 

[jpm]

I deposited $50 got the $200 bonus....
I was destroyed!!!
ALL GONE
My sons played here and this was the FIRST time we ever lost .
Just a bad day.

Ouch! Sorry to hear that.

 

[GrandMaster]

Not that I've seen MG claim anywhere that their auto-cheat will play perfectly.
In fact I have some vague recollection they tried to make it emulate the play of the "average joe" who plays less than perfectly.

Are you saying you just think the Viper programmers are good at computers but not BJ and that it's an honest mistake it plays all BJ games wrong? I would think it harder to make it play VP perfectly which, from what I read, it does.

If the software emulated the average joe, it would have to make some terribly bad plays and return something like 97-98%.

While MG may not have claimed the default strategy is perfect, Trevor Penn, manager of Crazy Vegas is on the record at

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

claiming that "Expert Mode will automatically play the best strategy for you, allowing the very best return possible. And it empowers players with more information about the games."

There is a difference between VP and BJ autoplay. I believe that VP autoplay works by calculating the expected value of each possible choice, at least that's the only sensible way to do it. The equivalent thing for BJ would be like a card counting computer, making the optimal composition dependent decision at each step.

 

[spearmaster]

I don't think it was a programming mistake - rather, it appears they were given bad advice as to the correct strategy for each particular game.

And what I referred to when I said "NOT OCCUR" is that Microgaming will think twice before accepting the words of an "expert" without getting a second opinion.

Mind you - the errors that some of you have discovered in strategy probably (without analyzing, so I could be wrong) don't make that much of a difference - AND - there may be some reason for some expert to deviate from the commonly accepted version (like the Wiz) that we have no knowledge of.

Not that I believe the latter part, of course... LOL...

 

[sw2003]

I don't think Microgaming put the word "expert" there to mean that
in that mode the program will play like an expert, rather it is more likely to
mean "for expert only". Besides why do you think they let you modify the
strategy table if they thought that they were the expert with the best
strategy? Basically they are saying if you think you are an expert, you
can choose any strategy you want and we will play that for you.

 

[Clayman]

it appears they were given bad advice as to the correct strategy for each particular game...
Mind you - the errors that some of you have discovered in strategy probably (without analyzing, so I could be wrong) don't make that much of a difference

Apparently for EVERY game - there's only one default table and it's wrong for all games. By now they surely must know that. I'm just surprised they haven't fixed it yet, if they were sincere. Make a table (strategy card) for each game and tell the computer if it's an "H", then hit, etc. How tough can that be? They don't even have to figure out the exact probabilities as they do in VP.

My guess (emphasize guess) is just the 4 changes necessitated by the double-deck game might cost an extra 0.2% or more. That means over 50% worse compared to perfect play. It would put the HA over 0.5% and that's a pretty crappy game. Just what I really want to do - play a lousy game even faster so I can lose more sooner. I certainly am interested in the cost of the default table vs perfect play for each game.

Still, though, the "average joe" would only wonder at his good luck. LOL

I wonder why eCogra allows such a misleading aspect of the software to continue since I bet alot of players would just believe it to be as correct as the VP. While the RNG may be all right, what is fair about building into the software a higher house edge than the game itself? Somebody should ask them.

 

[bradleyt]

The "expert" mode in VP on the microgaming sites often differs from what Bob Dancer Presents WinPoker says to hold.....

I dunno, I trust BDPWP over what the game says.....

 

[sw2003]

Bob Dancer and other experts do not necessarily give the same strategy
table. They disagree with each other in some of the more subtle cases.

 

[GrandMaster]

The "expert" mode in VP on the microgaming sites often differs from what Bob Dancer Presents WinPoker says to hold.....

I dunno, I trust BDPWP over what the game says.....

Bob Dancer and other experts do not necessarily give the same strategy
table. They disagree with each other in some of the more subtle cases.

Can you give me an example? In all the cases I checked, Bob Dancer and Viper software were in perfect agreement. If there is a disagreement, it is easy to calculate the expected values for any particular hand even without a computer to decide who is right.

 

[lanidar]

Ouch! Sorry to hear that.

Thanks JPM
I truly appreciate your sympathy.
I'm just pissed at the way it was done. I used the Autoplay, as usual, and I don't know what happened. I picked up $10 on my first round of $2.00 X 25...then BAM!!!! That was the highest my money ever reached. And, as some of us feel, on the way down, I figured...
"Well, this is the bottom, it's gonna come back now".

NEVER HAPPENED

So....Today I'm going back in and teach them a lesson!
I'm gonna ...KICK SOME ASS!!!

 

[lanidar]

I'm going back tomorrow and teach them a lesson!

Yeah ..well, I really didn't teach them a lesson.
But I made $110.00 profit.
Not alot of money. But I got back my $50 loss and a small profit on top of that.

I was just foolin' with them this time.

I'm going in again tonight.

That's when I'm going to show them who REALLY is in charge here!!!

 

[jpm]

A win is a win Lanidar, that's what counts!

If you can just chip away like that every time, its almost as good as one big hit.

 

[jpm]

Can you give me an example? In all the cases I checked, Bob Dancer and Viper software were in perfect agreement. If there is a disagreement, it is easy to calculate the expected values for any particular hand even without a computer to decide who is right.

I'd have to agree here, I've done spot checks against Bob D's and Viper, when I didn't think Viper was making a correct play (usually on some rather esoteric wildcard hand), and it always matched up correctly.

 

[sw2003]

I have never played VP on microgaming software so I don't know if it
always agree with Bob Dancer.

Jeffrey Lotspiech's website listed strategies that are in some subtle cases
disagree with the Bob Dancer's program's analyses. I did not check them
myself but Wizard of Odds did refer to Jeffrey's site. So if you guys want
to have fun analyzing them, go ahead.

 

[Clayman]

Jeffrey Lotspiech's website listed strategies that are in some subtle cases disagree with the Bob Dancer's program's analyses.

Strategies never give perfect play, just almost. But there is always only one best play. I guess there could be a tie rarely, too. Winpoker will always give the correct play.

 

[lanidar]

A win is a win Lanidar, that's what counts!

If you can just chip away like that every time, its almost as good as one big hit.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm going to show them who is in charge here!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yeah...I really showed them didn't I!

OK...I did alright but not great.
My profit was $176.00
I can't seem to get the BIG cash in.
I know I'm chipping away more and more each day but I'm yet to get a huge cash in.
I'm happy about the win but I'd like to know what it's like to cash in $1K...just for the hell of it.

 

[Clayman]

I'd like to know what it's like to cash in $1K...

Just deposit $2K

 

[lanidar]

Just deposit $2K

 

[lanidar]

Now I'm really happy.
I just cashed in $457 at Good Ole Lucky Nugget

This time I GOT them. Expired Image

 

[jpm]

Woohoo! WTG What were you playing?

 

[GrandMaster]

Just deposit $2K

I have a similar one. How to become a millionaire? Start with a billion dollars and get divorced.

 

[lanidar]

Woohoo! WTG What were you playing?

Thank You JPM...
I was playing Autoplay European Blackjack.
Basically, I programed the Autoplay to play $2.00 per hand 50X and just kept on playing over and over.
Once in awhile when the trend seemed to be in my favor, I would increase my wager to $4.00 per hand...sometimes 25X and sometimes 50X.
I also watched closely to be sure that I was getting fair hands delt to me. Obviously it was more than fair.....LOL

 

[lanidar]

Does anyone have a list of casinos that I can use Autoplay?

 

[sw2003]

I think I am right to say that all microgaming software casinos provide
autoplay! Other softwares like RTG, Boss, iGlobalMedia, Playtech do not have
this feature.

 

[bethug]

sw2003, only viper micro casinos have autoplay

 

[jpm]

Does anyone have a list of casinos that I can use Autoplay?

I think most of the microgaming ones on the casinomeister's recommended list are viper, and thus would have autoplay. Off the top of my head, anything in the BelleRock group, FL group. There's about 10 to start with.

 

[sw2003]

I have never been to a Microgaming Casino that is not also Viper
and I have been to quite a number of them.
So can you guys tell me which one is Microgaming but not Viper?????


Is there even any casino that uses Microgaming but not Viper?

The bigger casinos in the CasinoRewards Group, Belle Rock Group,
The Palace Group, Fortune Lounge Group all use Microgaming Viper!

I really love to know one Microgaming licensed casino that doesn't
use Viper!

So ??

 

[jpm]

There are a bunch. Fortune Room for one, Challenge Casino, Aztec Gold also I believe.

 

[HateMG]

Here is complete list of MG casinos:
Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

Some other non viper casinos are Dessert Dollar, Vegas Villa, Capital, Arthurian, Lucky Emperor