Document verification - POLL

[chayton]

If anybody wants to finance me writing this site, btw, I could use a few bucks right now and we can run it together

If I win the lotto this weekend I'll let you know.

[felicie]

I'd like to start a separate thread for reps but I'm not sure if I should, or where -- or if reps really want to talk about it (probably not). In defense of our video chat concept, like Nifty pointed out, it would only ever work for a small "semi-private" club. And it depends what your goals are. Ours are to prevent double accounts, prevent Americans, deter fraudsters and prevent anyone who tries fraud from coming back and doing it again. No system is going to be perfect. But ours is pretty good, and it can be done by a trained rep in 4-5 minutes. Since we're only planning on taking 100 signups or so per month, it's not such a manpower issue. Plus it gives new players a chance to ask us questions and get to know us before they trust us with their hard-earned cash. As a fallback, we're going to offer the old "fax ID" method too, which should take about a day to clear.

I hope you do get there jstrike because you seem to be a real stand up guy/girl and I'd be glad to play at your casino.
Real good thread Chayton thanks

[H1_Roller]

If anybody wants to finance me writing this site, btw, I could use a few bucks right now and we can run it together

How much do you need? Serious question.

EDIT - I mean how much would it cost to write such a site?

[all4greed]

No brainer - docs at withdrawal only.

Just because you get approved upfront doesn't mean you will get paid. The crap casinos can and will always come up with some excuse if they don't want to pay.

[greasemonkey]

No brainer - docs at withdrawal only.

Just because you get approved upfront doesn't mean you will get paid. The crap casinos can and will always come up with some excuse if they don't want to pay.

Yes, but the crap of "cant read docs" ... "send in diff. format, can't open"... need a different utility, we don't accept this one"... "cashier must not have received, send again".... We need a diff. ID. This one looks photoshopped"...."try sending them to this address"... "We don't accept this ID"... blah, blah, blah would ALL be done away with. BECAUSE they would be anxious to get you to deposit and not play these games with you up front. When you defer to cashout time then they will/do take as long as they want. Or ignore you.
it makes no sense to give them this power. If they want to verify docs then do it before I play. Not when it is in their best interest to not accept them or act on them.

[Nifty29]

The regularly-changing-token concept, and having it run by an independent party, gets around all possible misuse. RTG would have to trust that we had vetted the player, based on the player providing the most recent token. They'd never have access to the database itself.

Well here is another problem.

I don't want to submit my ID etc to a 3rd party operation that isn't related to the casino I'm playing at, and just because there is a token system doesn't stop this 3rd party from selling my details to the highest bidder. At least with a per-casino approach I always know how I'm dealing with.

As all4greed says, pre-verification does NOT automatically mean you will be paid. We need to consider things like bonus requirements etc and the fact that rogues will find another reason anyway. It is unreasonable to expect that operators are just going to let cashouts through without scrutiny of some kind.

It all comes back to the fact that honest operators will pay honest players every time anyway, so it's difficult for me to see the need to change anything. If I have to send ID every so often, then so be it. I haven't been ripped off in 13 years and I know of many others in the same boat, because I follow the rules and send docs when they are requested.

Casinos will have to pay a 3rd party for the service also, and they will have to pass this on to the player.

[P.V.]

Actualllllly....

and I don't know why I'm writing this here because someone's gonna steal it. But I bet you could make more money (and be legal in the US) by running a site that managed a central database like that, than from running a whole bunch of casinos. And it would be easy. Basically every player goes on and verifies once with this site, keeping their verification up to date when it's requested, and the site gives them a secret token to prove their identity. Change the token once a month. Any site that wants to use it as their ID method, just request the latest token from the player when they withdraw. It would be really easy for everybody.

If anybody wants to finance me writing this site, btw, I could use a few bucks right now and we can run it together

I wouldn't spend too much time and money. It's been difficult enough just trying to get OC's onboard to use a secure site/system for players who don't like emailing and faxing their doc's in. And the OC's still approve or deny their own players, so I doubt they would ever want a 3rd party approving their players hard docs for them as you're suggesting.

I agree with Nifty in the fact that OC's aren't going want anyone else to see their customer base which is highly understandable.

I also agree with Nifty that a complete preapproval system would be time consuming and overwhelming to the operator. I still think the option of doc. preapproval should be allowed for those who prefer this.

I have an interest in this area, so being upfront here, OC's should loosen up somewhat and allow players to share this info in a more secure environment if players want too.

Keyword: If players want too.

Nifty also points out if a 3rd. party handles this it would would be costly for the OC's, valid point!

I'm not understanding why, if a OC requests a copy of a passport etc., why must it be emailed or faxed or mailed only? Why would they care how it's sent & received as long as it's provided?

I never give out my personal information whether its ID, passport, CC scans, banking info. or whatever unless it's in person or https encrypted on the internet.

So my question tonight to everyone following this thread is this. I was thinking of adding an approved doc. counter on each players profile, registering how many times their docs had been approved by different gaming sites. Kind of like the rep power here on CM, the more your docs have been approved, the higher your profile rating.

Waste of time & money or a good idea?

[greasemonkey]

Well here is another problem.

I don't want to submit my ID etc to a 3rd party operation that isn't related to the casino I'm playing at, and just because there is a token system doesn't stop this 3rd party from selling my details to the highest bidder. At least with a per-casino approach I always know how I'm dealing with.

As all4greed says, pre-verification does NOT automatically mean you will be paid. We need to consider things like bonus requirements etc and the fact that rogues will find another reason anyway. It is unreasonable to expect that operators are just going to let cashouts through without scrutiny of some kind.

It all comes back to the fact that honest operators will pay honest players every time anyway, so it's difficult for me to see the need to change anything. If I have to send ID every so often, then so be it. I haven't been ripped off in 13 years and I know of many others in the same boat, because I follow the rules and send docs when they are requested.

Casinos will have to pay a 3rd party for the service also, and they will have to pass this on to the player.

Would you be interested in doing this if it was somebody that you "knew" and trusted? I am referring to Bryan. Not saying he would, but if he did add this process to his business wouldn't you feel safe with casinos having to get the verification or no verification from HERE? That would be an ideal situation IMO.

[all4greed]

Yes, but the crap of "cant read docs" ... "send in diff. format, can't open"... need a different utility, we don't accept this one"... "cashier must not have received, send again".... We need a diff. ID. This one looks photoshopped"...."try sending them to this address"... "We don't accept this ID"... blah, blah, blah would ALL be done away with. BECAUSE they would be anxious to get you to deposit and not play these games with you up front. When you defer to cashout time then they will/do take as long as they want. Or ignore you.
it makes no sense to give them this power. If they want to verify docs then do it before I play. Not when it is in their best interest to not accept them or act on them.

I get what you are saying. I've never had a payment problem because of rejected FBF and other docs. Maybe I'm one of the luckier ones. For me, it's just slow payments with varying reasons/excuses.

One strong reason I would not give my ID to every casino upfront is security. I posted in some other thread that my ID, credit card, casino login, etc. was posted on the web years ago by a disgruntled casino employee along with hundreds (if not more) other players. With the number of casinos that went out over the years or that turned to crap, it's scary enough to think where my information is stored or who has access to it.

Yes, I choose that risk by playing online. But I prefer that the less people that have my info with scanned images the better.

[vinylweatherman]

Yes, but the crap of "cant read docs" ... "send in diff. format, can't open"... need a different utility, we don't accept this one"... "cashier must not have received, send again".... We need a diff. ID. This one looks photoshopped"...."try sending them to this address"... "We don't accept this ID"... blah, blah, blah would ALL be done away with. BECAUSE they would be anxious to get you to deposit and not play these games with you up front. When you defer to cashout time then they will/do take as long as they want. Or ignore you.
it makes no sense to give them this power. If they want to verify docs then do it before I play. Not when it is in their best interest to not accept them or act on them.

THIS is why we have this argument at all. If verification at withdrawal was a simple and smooth process, players would be happy.

The problem now is that in many cases, a simple procedure turns into a farce because the casino is internally disorganised, and this gives the impression that the MAIN function of this procedure is to stall the payment.

Some of the cock-ups beggar belief!! We are told to email the documents, we prepare them in the INTERNATIONAL STANDARD format requested, usually JPEG, and they come back with "can't open them". This is THEIR fault for not using the correct application at their end, yet they blame the PLAYER for sending an "unusable file".

Other times, the email address used to receive documents is set up to reject attachments to inbound emails, thus the documents are never received. Again this is THEIR fault, yet somehow it becomes the PLAYER'S fault - as though we had a choice other than the email the documents as requested.

The final screw-up is where at first they confirm receipt, and then later claim they never received the documents. This shows how incredibly lax their internal procedures are for handling sensitive personal information, particularly when passed between different departments.

Even when nothing has gone wrong, players STILL get all the BS excuses of "too dark", "too light", "blurred", etc. These do NOTHING to help players understand what might have gone wrong, and so they simply produce the documents again using the same method as before, only to have the same rejection excuses time and time again. From the player's end, they can see NOTHING wrong with the files when using an image viewing application, so believe that there is nothing wrong with them at all, and that the whole charade is yet another stalling exercise by the casino.

Even when fully verified, some casinos STILL claim it takes "xx business days" of sitting in "pending" before a withdrawal can be paid, yet there is NOTHING more to be done in the way of verification, and even a check that terms have not been breached should not take more than a few minutes in most cases as it can be done by a software tool in the "back end" application.

The main function of the pending period is to stall the payment, and since casinos use pending periods mainly to keep cash up their end for as long as possible, why should we believe that they do NOT have deliberate built in delays to the verification process to add a few extra days to the holding period for new players, and those selected for reverification.