T&C's: Less Is More!

[johnsteed]

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The industry wants to be taken seriously, and wants to have a reputation and the perception that follows, that it’s geared more towards ‘entertainment’ as opposed to ‘gambling’. Can you think of any other form of industry that enforces its policies as much as online casinos do? And don’t lose sight of the fact that this is an ‘entertainment’ industry. It’s all about ‘fun’, right?



It’s illegal to jaywalk, yet that rule is almost never enforced. You can jaywalk in front of a police car, and they’re not going to do anything about it. They can, they have every right to do something about it, but they don’t. People take soap and towels from hotels all of the time. I know good people who’ve done so, and I’m sure you also do. Some people rip off their mattress tags, and no one is kicking down their doors to take them down. But you break any online casino rule, AFTER winning no less, and whatever positive news you could have about online gaming (prizes/winnings are what it’s all about), are basically flushed down the toilet. “Sorry to hear that, but you broke a rule and now you have to live with it. Again, I’m sorry, but rules are rules.” Fun.




Certain members scoff at the idea that casinos should have it written into the program, what games players can and can’t play while using bonuses, because hey, it’s so easy just to read through T&Cs, so why bother with that? At least acknowledge that there’s an ongoing problem with this approach. It can’t be that hard to tweak the software here and there. It’s 2010 for god’s sake! Why laugh it off? Why wouldn't it be to everyone's advantage to have it programmed into the software? WHY?!!!



Certain people want us to have a clearer picture of what those T&C’s actually mean, and all I’m thinking about is that there shouldn’t be any (other than are you of the legal age to gamble). As far as I know, you can’t make crap clear…



When people encourage us to read the casino’s T&C’s so that we don’t screw up, all I’m thinking about is why would they (the casinos) write it in a way that could potentially screw the player out of their potential winnings? When certain people feel that it’s our duty/responsibility to read those T&C’s are frequently as possible, I can’t help but wonder if we’re heading towards a standard that is ultimately stumping/retarding the growth of the online gaming industry (specifically with casinos).



It’s okay though, because some people have no problems understanding and making sense of those T&C’s. But what about people with any kind of intellectual disability? I see buses full of people with disabilities going to the B&M casinos, and I suspect that a number of them play online. Are you telling me that the T&C’s are easy as 1-2-3 for them to read and comprehend? Would the casinos be doing their part to deny these people the right to be playing there, prior to accepting their deposits?




So, when you’re proud that you’ve read the terms, and that you didn’t break any of them, and that you can hang your hat on that, just take solace in the fact that there are others who weren’t as lucky and cognizant as you are. They can’t ALL be criminals now, can they?



In many ways, you are also responsible for the casinos not doing a better job of making online gaming more user/player friendly, and giving them enough of a push of going above and beyond the status quo. Where's their motivation to improve the quality of the entire online gaming process? The more that people defend casinos for denying players their winnings for breaking a not-so-clear T&C, gives them ample ammunition to write up a new wave of more not-so-easy to understand T&Cs. At what point is it too much?



Point being, playing at online casinos shouldn’t be about reading policies, it should be about getting money in/out quickly and safely, while having fun and enjoying the easy process. Are we at that point yet? Is it a quick, easy, safe, fun, and entertaining process for you? It sure as **** isn’t for me, at least not all of those things at once. I’m not saying that there aren’t any good casinos, but the bar on expectations should be raised (and not stay as is).



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[Achenar]

Well said.I always believed gambling was a (part) of entertainment.It's a FACT that we gamble to win or at least get a (CHANCE) to win. We don't just gamble for fun and lose lose lose..Is that entertaining ,no you feel robbed.Most of use like to have some playtime with our money even if at the end we lose at least WE HAD FUN.This is why i quite online gambling quite a few yrs ago.I still come here to see whats new and whats still old news.

I like your point here.I always knew the reason it's to confuse you.(tricks)

(When people encourage us to read the casino’s T&C’s so that we don’t screw up, all I’m thinking about is why would they (the casinos) write it in a way that could potentially screw the player out of their potential winnings?)

[silcnlayc]

Very well put Johnsteed...I am all for making it simple..less is more etc etc..I have been saying this for so long..I quit saying anything anymore..especially when I know that we are all talking to a brick wall and no changes will be made...eveything will stay "status quo"...

I do feel that lately, many casinos are starting to feel it in the bottom line because people like me have quit depositng and if you multpy me x100 or 1000, etc...that is some serious money being lost..to someone somewhere..

I also said, that now is the time to grab the USA market and make a killing...but once again, deaf ears have fallen upon them..each and every casino that has more than 1 page of T&C's...should fade away and die...and hopefully it has started..

As to the bonus money with another 50 pages of rules to follow before playing your monies mixed with theirs..this too should cease...if you are giving monies...GIVE it and stop all the shannanigans with rule 1 that rule 2 negates because rule three said so kind of stuff..

Hopefully...some smart casino operator will actually listen and take this to heart and come out on top with the some of the cream...such as the USA market and all the monies we have to offer..and stop making gambling such a big production when it could be as simple as pie..

.

[felicie]

Any industry that can gain from it maybe? I'm not sure I can think of an industry that changes their t&cs so frequently although most of them say they can at will.

The whole world seems to be set up in a complicated way meant to confuse but I bet half of them are just a bunch of people that don't know what the f they're doing.

[vinylweatherman]

Very well put Johnsteed...I am all for making it simple..less is more etc etc..I have been saying this for so long..I quit saying anything anymore..especially when I know that we are all talking to a brick wall and no changes will be made...eveything will stay "status quo"...

I do feel that lately, many casinos are starting to feel it in the bottom line because people like me have quit depositng and if you multpy me x100 or 1000, etc...that is some serious money being lost..to someone somewhere..

I also said, that now is the time to grab the USA market and make a killing...but once again, deaf ears have fallen upon them..each and every casino that has more than 1 page of T&C's...should fade away and die...and hopefully it has started..

As to the bonus money with another 50 pages of rules to follow before playing your monies mixed with theirs..this too should cease...if you are giving monies...GIVE it and stop all the shannanigans with rule 1 that rule 2 negates because rule three said so kind of stuff..

Hopefully...some smart casino operator will actually listen and take this to heart and come out on top with the some of the cream...such as the USA market and all the monies we have to offer..and stop making gambling such a big production when it could be as simple as pie..

.

There would be no need for most of these terms and conditions for bonuses if the software was equipped to police gameplay as it happened. Removing the need to write terms for bonuses, would make the overall terms considerably shorter.
Even the general terms can be shortened if more pre-checking of players was carried out, and registration simply refused pending further information where the casino doubted a players' details.

Even when players DO follow all the terms, the casino can STILL refuse to pay because it didn't like the outcome (in other words, the player won too much). This is NOT just confined to the rogues either, as some former accredited casinos are no longer with us because they didn't want to pay players that had followed the terms to the letter, so just invented a load of "unwritten" rules that had "always applied" in order to justify non-payment.

[colly]

I think all the posters have made some excellent points and software self policing appears the most logical and fair way to go where reputable software is involved.

Some of the built in checks could be easily managed but I think the current difficulty in programming this could be
1) constant variation in bonuses from week to week or in some casinos day to day
2)the variety of bonus options available in any one software group and in some casino within the casino itself
3) varitaions on the same basic bonus depending on player status

Some of these would require constant reprogramming and tinkering at the edges and may not be feasible.

Perhaps if we wish for this option then a standardisation of bonuses and there longevity is something that needs to be considered. Personally I would be willing to swap the variety for a built in programmming check.

The majority have stated gambling is an enterainment based industry- not sure I would agree with that from the operators persective- it is from ours but I think at the core its a money industry.

Why the legalese and length of terms- I work in a legal fieid (corporate taxation)and have to interpret convoluted and complex legislation daily- to a larrge extent the added layers of complexity are recent and occured due to loopholes being legally exploited and courts previously taking a strict legal interpretative approach rather than legislative intent. Not syaing this is why T and C's so complex but it is an increasing trend - especially in contract law which is what we enter into when we agree to a casino's terms.

It is also unfortunate that a percentage of our co-players do, will and have exploited lopholes- and the same could be said for some casino operators.

Unfortunately the actions of a few will always cause parties to attempt to cover their butts by adding catchall provisions and clauses.

Would love to see simplification but in the present climate and as long as money is the driving force I suspect it will be along way off.

One can only hope!

Colly

[vinylweatherman]

Whilst the bonuses may vary, there is no reason why an approach based on only "the bonus balance" couldn't work, such as the MGS Clearplay system as originally intended.
There can be a great deal of variety in how players GET the bonus, but software enforcement only needs to take place once the bonus has been credited. The MGS Clearplay already allows for variations due to "player status", where different WR and weightings can be applied to different groups of players. Jackpot Factory do this for VIP players, who have a set 15x WR instead of the normal 30x that non-VIP players have.
Casino Action had FOUR player classes set up in Clearplay before they screwed up & went bust.
32Red have allowed better WEIGHTINGS for Club Rouge players, with ALL (non progressive) games counting 100% towards WR, not just the slots.

What is lacking is implementation of max stake as % of bonus credited, which will have to be calculated and implemented on individual accounts and each time a bonus is credited. MGS currently have an overall system of cutting limits when a bonus is in play. Only GoWild seem to be using it, and even they are not consistently using it (at least not when I played).

Given the sheer complexity of the rest of the software, such rule implementation, although not necessarly straight forward, should be something their programmers can cope with.

[johnsteed]

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Thank you for the feedback everyone.



colly

The majority have stated gambling is an entrainment based industry- not sure I would agree with that from the operators perspective- it is from ours but I think at the core its a money industry.

I don't view gambling as 'entertainment', at least not primarily. To me (as Achenas also stated above), it's gambling in hopes/chance of winning, and the 'entertainment' stems from winning (or at the very least the potential that I could win).



At the same time, although poker is part of the online gaming industry, I don't really think of poker as 'gambling' per se. That is, if you're skilled enough to know what you're doing, the opposition/field is ideally weaker/ you have a solid understanding of what proper bankroll management is, and you have the right approach to it on a session-to-session basis ('tilt' control), I don't think of it as gambling as much as it is a game of advantage play.



But, we're talking about casinos, so back on track...



There are enough people within the industry that do in fact want the overall perception to be that it's about responsible gaming, so they tend to slide the word 'entertainment' in there. The word 'entertainment' doesn't carry the negative connotations associated with the word 'gambling', so by all means it's within their best interest to give it a more palatable face-lift. I can think of two respected operators - who work for highly reputable/accredited online casinos - that told me directly to view it as 'entertainment', as opposed to naming it for what it really is... gambling.



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Vinylweatherman

Given the sheer complexity of the rest of the software, such rule implementation, although not necessarily straight forward, should be something their programmers can cope with.

Instead of the industry being in a race to create the next best slot, all of the software providers should be looking at solving the problems surrounding bonuses. Why can't the software be customized/tailored in a way, that all restricted games are locked while using a bonus? Is that so impossible? I mean, what's better, locking restricted games from being used as a way to not violate the terms & conditions of any given bonus, or the other option of running the gauntlet while playing their games?



I can play 'Pitfall' on my Vic20 or Atari2600, and I don't really want to, because it's dated and boring by 2010's standards. The video game industry competes to make better games. They're motivation (aside from the mighty dollar) is about trying to win over the customer, by making the player's experience memorable. Games and systems released 3 years ago, are already slightly dated. I don't get the sense that there's an absolute need within online casino industry to get better, not in the least. If it was really motivated by thinking of the player/customer first, they'd do away with bogging down the player with T&C's, and all of the potential traps that come with them.



One has to wonder if their growth charts show that it's far more feasible to trap players who break their T&Cs, as opposed to the player who just deposits and loses. That passing thought probably has no merit, but...




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[rockycatt]

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Thank you for the feedback everyone.



colly






I don't view gambling as 'entertainment', at least not primarily. To me (as Achenas also stated above), it's gambling in hopes/chance of winning, and the 'entertainment' stems from winning (or at the very least the potential that I could win).



At the same time, although poker is part of the online gaming industry, I don't really think of poker as 'gambling' per se. That is, if you're skilled enough to know what you're doing, the opposition/field is ideally weaker/ you have a solid understanding of what proper bankroll management is, and you have the right approach to it on a session-to-session basis ('tilt' control), I don't think of it as gambling as much as it is a game of advantage play.



But, we're talking about casinos, so back on track...



There are enough people within the industry that do in fact want the overall perception to be that it's about responsible gaming, so they tend to slide the word 'entertainment' in there. The word 'entertainment' doesn't carry the negative connotations associated with the word 'gambling', so by all means it's within their best interest to give it a more palatable face-lift. I can think of two respected operators - who work for highly reputable/accredited online casinos - that told me directly to view it as 'entertainment', as opposed to naming it for what it really is... gambling.



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Vinylweatherman






Instead of the industry being in a race to create the next best slot, all of the software providers should be looking at solving the problems surrounding bonuses. Why can't the software be customized/tailored in a way, that all restricted games are locked while using a bonus? Is that so impossible? I mean, what's better, locking restricted games from being used as a way to not violate the terms & conditions of any given bonus, or the other option of running the gauntlet while playing their games?



I can play 'Pitfall' on my Vic20 or Atari2600, and I don't really want to, because it's dated and boring by 2010's standards. The video game industry competes to make better games. They're motivation (aside from the mighty dollar) is about trying to win over the customer, by making the player's experience memorable. Games and systems released 3 years ago, are already slightly dated. I don't get the sense that there's an absolute need within online casino industry to get better, not in the least. If it was really motivated by thinking of the player/customer first, they'd do away with bogging down the player with T&C's, and all of the potential traps that come with them.



One has to wonder if their growth charts show that it's far more feasible to trap players who break their T&Cs, as opposed to the player who just deposits and loses. That passing thought probably has no merit, but...




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Instead of the industry being in a race to create the next best slot, all of the software providers should be looking at solving the problems surrounding bonuses. Why can't the software be customized/tailored in a way, that all restricted games are locked while using a bonus? Is that so impossible? I mean, what's better, locking restricted games from being used as a way to not violate the terms & conditions of any given bonus, or the other option of running the gauntlet while playing their games?
this is active on 3 dice you get prompted to stop and not play a game /any game not allowed

[felicie]

Much less stress playing without the bonus crapolla but I must be in a minority on this since even mgs have gotten into the bonus game more these days.