The mystery of the bonusban

[De Beuker]

Hiya: If a person is, "NOT an Advantage Player", then why take a bonus to begin with? Is Longer play time, worth all the hoops you have to jump thru? It is not just so much better to deposit $100 of your Money, Hit a feature, and now have $700, and be able to Cash Out, "NOW"?

I mean it is hard enough to get ahead in the first place, but to get ahead, and then be, "Forced", to keep playing because of Play Thru requirements, just seems silly.....

Your name says it all, you're a gambler, I'm a player.
There's a huge difference between those 2.

You play for the moolah, I play for entertainment mostly.
You (and most gamblers) play table games and roulette.
I play slots, all the rest cannot thrill me for a split second, exept maybe videopoker, but thats almost a slotgame too.

I dont have much money for gaming nowadays.
Ofcourse I love winning, thats what its all about, but if I lose and had a good night's fun, no problem.
I always concider the money lost as soon as its in my account.
What I really, REALLY hate is when I deposit my measily 30 bucks (all I have for gaming per week) and prepare myself for a good ride on the slots and its all gone in 10 minutes with no win over 5x my bet and no freespins in sight.
This happens too often, especially when playing RTG or Rival.

Thats why I rather play with a big bonus, if I pick the wrong game in the beginning its not immediately end of story.
And I like the thrill of trying to beat the playthrough.
But within certain limits ofcourse.

And please, do not come up with the fun mode thing.
Once you've experienced the thrill of playing for real, funmode is booooring.
There has to be a challange.

Playing slots is like a drug, and I try to use it in a responsible way and control the damage as much as possible.

And I'm fully aware that these bonuses do not give me an advantage, more like the opposite, thats why I dont understand that the casinos are so picky with them.

[rockycatt]

One thing seems sure. Casinos are REALLY $h1t scared about players FINDING OUT what is behind the mystery of the bonus ban. They seem to think this would be the end of the world for them.

Clearly, it is NOT about "entertaining the recreational player". This particular piece of BULLSHIT has long passed it's "use by date".

Now we are seeing mass bonus bans for SLOTS players, who ARE using the bonuses as intended, to increase the length of time they can play on a given deposit.

This is not enough for the casinos, so they take away the bonuses from these recreational micro-depositors, as well as from the "advantage players".

This was illustrated in a B & M tale from a while back.

A woman visited the casino every week, and always spent £10, leaving when the £10 was gone. She was a RECREATIONAL player, she went there to spend as much time as possible enjoying her £10 worth of play.

One day, she hit big, REALLY big, from her weekly £10, and walked out with over £20K (it could have been more).

Next week, she came back, WITH A TENNER!, and left when the tenner was gone, just as she had always done for YEARS.

The next week, SHE GOT BARRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The vague reasoning from the casino was that they would NEVER win back the money from her at £10 a week, so no longer wanted her "cluttering up the premises".

HER behaviour did NOT change, the ONLY thing that caused her, a customer for many years, to get banned was winning big, and then demonstrating that this would NOT change how she gambled.

Clearly, the casinos DO expect big winners to give it back fairly quickly. They WANT a big win to change a gambler's playing style, they WANT them to get carried away and increase their bets in the hope of winning even more.

The LAST thing the casino wants is a RESPONSIBLE GAMBLER, who NEVER lets a big win make them take bigger risks.

Oddly enough, players that win big and DO increase their bets in the excitement of the moment, and DO win even more, run the risk of having it CONFISCATED.

The casinos do NOT run to a fixed set of rules, they constantly CHANGE the rules and criteria to suit their own ends.

The woman in the above story got barred, BUT it seems she would NOT have been barred for "only spending a tenner all night" if she had not had a big win.

It makes no sense as such, because the casino will STILL take a tenner from her every week, and they STILL ARE taking a tenner every week from other low rollers like her without having a problem with it.

It seems it is NOT just about players winning, it is about them NOT letting the win change their style to something looser, which gives the casino more chance to win the money back.

Gambling responsibly DESPITE having had a big win seems to be what is causing many of these bonus bans, and casinos CANNOT be "on record" about this, thus the extreme sensitivity of this issue.

If we knew the criteria uses, we could then PROVE that it is designed to get shot of the RESPONSIBLE gamblers, and reward the IRRESPONSIBLE gamblers and the chasers of losses.

It is only when the casino sees how a player behaves AFTER a big win that they have clues as to what type of gambler they are; "tight (responsible)", or "loose (risk taker/chaser)".

so this explanation in it self shows that casino's track players [individually] exactly as they play
= just a observation

[love2winalot]

Hiya: This is Soooooooo True. I look at it like this. You go to the casino. You Play. You Win. The casino looks at this as a, "Loan". They would like for you to repay the loan, and pay % on it. You Win $1000. Your average deposits are around $500, and sometimes you lose the entire $500. The Casino LOVES You.

You have a visa card with a $5,000 limit. You spend all $5000. Your monthly payment is $5. It would take you over 83 years to pay back the credit. When you ask Visa, to give you more credit, what do you think they are going to say? Some Casino's look at it the same way. The STUPID WAY.

A Smart Casino, will have it in their T&C, that they have the right to use, "any player", as a promotional tool. There are Casino's that send out e mails that have a Monthly Winner list:

Linda T. from Canada won $17,000 on WOF
Bobby k. Won $37,000 at Video Poker
and so on.
Everytime someone Loses at a casino, others say, "Yea, I lost to", and they delete the casino. On the Other hand, when a Player Wins at a casino, others say, "Wow, someone is Winning, I will try it out", and they download an deposit. They would not have done this normally. They did it because they see someone actually winning there.

[Rhyzz]

Any operator that bans a slots player from receiving a bonus is to be considered a joke. The maths behind most slots bonuses are massively stacked in favour of the Casino so just because someone wins every now and then they shouldn't be banning someone, if anything they're just losing the potential of getting their money back.

[chayton]

Are you being bonus banned just because you're in the Netherlands? I was shocked to find out that BetFred has a much higher WR on their bonuses for Canadian players than for everyone else - I don't take bonuses there anyhow, but still - it doesn't seem right.

[ibutlercasino]

Hi all,


As most casino's that belong to one software provider ,the databases are the same so when one player keeps appearing alot he will be seen as a bonus abuser. This is wrong policy, the only reasoning behind banning a player from bonuses is if he abuses them by using a slot bonus on blackjack or roullete and even so the software should be smart enough to not allow the bonus to be counted if those games are played. So it comes down to over zealous managers and fraud teams judgement to ban players, it is wrong in my opinion as it is an incentive to keep people playing, take that away and you have no one playing. Sorry to hear you have had such bad experiences

[vinylweatherman]

Hi all,


As most casino's that belong to one software provider ,the databases are the same so when one player keeps appearing alot he will be seen as a bonus abuser. This is wrong policy, the only reasoning behind banning a player from bonuses is if he abuses them by using a slot bonus on blackjack or roullete and even so the software should be smart enough to not allow the bonus to be counted if those games are played. So it comes down to over zealous managers and fraud teams judgement to ban players, it is wrong in my opinion as it is an incentive to keep people playing, take that away and you have no one playing. Sorry to hear you have had such bad experiences

Maybe, but this data should NEVER be shared between UNRELATED operators except for specific purposes defined under data protection laws. It is ILLEGAL to share simple tracking data, and ONLY permissible to share data for the prevention of FRAUD.

It is ILLEGAL for an operator to share personal details with third parties without EXPRESS PERMISSION from the customer, and even then, the sharing should be to RELATED third parties, and NOT direct competitors.

Playtech insiders DENY there is a central database for tracking players' depositing and playing style, and that this data is securely held by the operators, and available only to vetted members of staff. The ONLY central database that Playtech operate is one for FRAUD, and is used to track FRAUDSTERS as they hop between operators.

If proof arises that operators ARE doing this, especially for those that have gone on record to deny this, trust will be further eroded. This whole "bonus ban" mystery is already damaging trust, since logically the decisions made in some cases make no sense UNLESS they have been informed by illegally obtained data from other operators.

Similarly, players who have received SPAM can find no other explanation other than casinos selling on their details to marketing firms, despite the fact that all operators deny this, and stress how securely our data is held, and how only restricted access is available. Every time there is PROOF that data has leaked, it always seems that the "rogue employee" excuse is paraded in front of players.

Maybe tracking data IS being shared with marketing organisations, who in turn are creating "negative value databases" on players and selling these on to other operators. Since such data can be directly related to individual players (i.e. it has not been "anonymised" before being released by the data controller of the operator in question), it would be ILLEGAL for another to receive, process, or pass it on, without EXPRESS PERMISSION from the person to whom the data relates.

We KNOW that Rival have a central database, and get around the rules by using "white labels" that look & feel like independent operators, but since Rival are the real owners behind the casinos, the data is really only being shared INTERNALLY, so no data protection offense has been comitted.

Software providers such as MGS and Playtech have defined their role as providers of the software, and NOT operators, therefore they CANNOT have access to individual player data. MGS have confirmed this is the case, and is one reason they cannot help with individual player complaints. Playtech also have a similar "hands off" policy (so they have said). RTG are a little vague, and it has recently come out that CDS/RTG have access to even MORE data on individual players than operators.

It WILL all come out in the end, just as RTG's variable RTP settings, and MGS's weighted early video slots, have been proven. It is a matter of WHEN solid proof either way emerges, which could happen by mistake, as was the case with Absolute Poker, where an error in supplying hand histories to a player blew the scandal wide open with documented evidence that provided the basis for a proof that it was statistically improbable that there was NOT any cheating going on.

[ibutlercasino]

Maybe, but this data should NEVER be shared between UNRELATED operators except for specific purposes defined under data protection laws. It is ILLEGAL to share simple tracking data, and ONLY permissible to share data for the prevention of FRAUD.

It is ILLEGAL for an operator to share personal details with third parties without EXPRESS PERMISSION from the customer, and even then, the sharing should be to RELATED third parties, and NOT direct competitors.

Playtech insiders DENY there is a central database for tracking players' depositing and playing style, and that this data is securely held by the operators, and available only to vetted members of staff. The ONLY central database that Playtech operate is one for FRAUD, and is used to track FRAUDSTERS as they hop between operators.

If proof arises that operators ARE doing this, especially for those that have gone on record to deny this, trust will be further eroded. This whole "bonus ban" mystery is already damaging trust, since logically the decisions made in some cases make no sense UNLESS they have been informed by illegally obtained data from other operators.

Similarly, players who have received SPAM can find no other explanation other than casinos selling on their details to marketing firms, despite the fact that all operators deny this, and stress how securely our data is held, and how only restricted access is available. Every time there is PROOF that data has leaked, it always seems that the "rogue employee" excuse is paraded in front of players.

Maybe tracking data IS being shared with marketing organisations, who in turn are creating "negative value databases" on players and selling these on to other operators. Since such data can be directly related to individual players (i.e. it has not been "anonymised" before being released by the data controller of the operator in question), it would be ILLEGAL for another to receive, process, or pass it on, without EXPRESS PERMISSION from the person to whom the data relates.

We KNOW that Rival have a central database, and get around the rules by using "white labels" that look & feel like independent operators, but since Rival are the real owners behind the casinos, the data is really only being shared INTERNALLY, so no data protection offense has been comitted.

Software providers such as MGS and Playtech have defined their role as providers of the software, and NOT operators, therefore they CANNOT have access to individual player data. MGS have confirmed this is the case, and is one reason they cannot help with individual player complaints. Playtech also have a similar "hands off" policy (so they have said). RTG are a little vague, and it has recently come out that CDS/RTG have access to even MORE data on individual players than operators.

It WILL all come out in the end, just as RTG's variable RTP settings, and MGS's weighted early video slots, have been proven. It is a matter of WHEN solid proof either way emerges, which could happen by mistake, as was the case with Absolute Poker, where an error in supplying hand histories to a player blew the scandal wide open with documented evidence that provided the basis for a proof that it was statistically improbable that there was NOT any cheating going on.

Yes what I meant is that database the one for fraud which is shared, leaves the judgment of bonus abuser up to the fraud expert, all he sees is the name appearing on all operators and its up to him to decide whether or not to ban the player, in most cases he will rather ban the player than check full player activity and make a balanced decision. I have seen real bonus abuse patterns and some people really do take advantage of the bonuses but this is due to poor software on the providers part, it can be programmed in the software to not count the bonus if the player strays from the permitted games(THIS IS THE CORRECT WAY) rather than leave it up to someone to decide later on which is too late and will look bad even if the manager is right. the customer can always turn around and say why did you allow me if its not permitted, but now that I won you want to take it back.

[Rhyzz]

Playtech insiders DENY there is a central database for tracking players' depositing and playing style, and that this data is securely held by the operators, and available only to vetted members of staff. The ONLY central database that Playtech operate is one for FRAUD, and is used to track FRAUDSTERS as they hop between operators.

My 2 cents - they can get around this by storing user information on the same server for licensing, therefore you could class the data as belonging to Playtech and not the operator, thus the information is allowed to be shared across anyone sharing that particular server.

[vinylweatherman]

Yes what I meant is that database the one for fraud which is shared, leaves the judgment of bonus abuser up to the fraud expert, all he sees is the name appearing on all operators and its up to him to decide whether or not to ban the player, in most cases he will rather ban the player than check full player activity and make a balanced decision. I have seen real bonus abuse patterns and some people really do take advantage of the bonuses but this is due to poor software on the providers part, it can be programmed in the software to not count the bonus if the player strays from the permitted games(THIS IS THE CORRECT WAY) rather than leave it up to someone to decide later on which is too late and will look bad even if the manager is right. the customer can always turn around and say why did you allow me if its not permitted, but now that I won you want to take it back.

This implies that players like De Beuker are having this problem because they are LISTED on the FRAUD database, and operators ARE simply banning him from bonuses because his name is listed.

This further implies that the fraud database is being MISUSED by operators, who are placing names of players on it who have NOT been fraudulent at all, but merely a bit clever with the bonuses.
Since when did we accept that advantage play is the same thing as FRAUD. FRAUD involves BREAKING the rules, and trying to get away with it. "advantage play" on the other hand does NOT involve breaking any rules, merely being a SKILLFUL and EXPERIENCED player, and playing offers in a sensible way with the aim to WIN, rather than simply p1$$ every deposit away.

My 2 cents - they can get around this by storing user information on the same server for licensing, therefore you could class the data as belonging to Playtech and not the operator, thus the information is allowed to be shared across anyone sharing that particular server.

This would enable sharing, BUT would also make PLAYTECH the "data owner", and it would be PLAYTECH that would have to have a data controller, manage data requests, etc. This would prevent Playtech from saying "we only provide the software", since they would then be involved in managing players' data, and policing its use and distribution.
MGS have already said they don't have access to this data, so are not involved in having to police the data under data protection laws.

Maybe this will come out into the open when a player makes a data request that reveals data that shouldn't have been there if the laws were being obeyed.

If an individual makes a data disclosure request of MGS, there should be nothing of significance given what they said, however the weakness in the system is that the player would have to guess who to serve with the request, there is no requirement to volunteer the fact that you have someone's data on file.