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How transparent are remote gaming jurisdictions?

Rusty

Banned User - repetitive flaming
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Location
Manchester UK
I have studied page upon page of literature on how remote gaming jurisdictions attempt to ensure that their licensees operate under their regulations and how proactive they are in ensuring the player gets a fair game.

As far as I can tell not a single one concerns themselves with the spot check testing of software or having anonymous players to gather real world data.
Any checks for license eligibility are made at the request for this license and after that the most that is done is a check of their annual audit.

In light of this I wondered how they could regulate effectively and wanted clarification on what they considered a fair game.
The only way I could think to do this was to ask some very specific questions and see how forthcoming they were with the answers - after all they are supposedly in existence to regulate the industry and protect the player so surely they would be happy to address any concerns, right?

This is what I sent.

Old Attachment (Invalid)

Only one replied (UKGC) with a link to their site.:eek2:
Over one week later and all the others are apparently taking the 5th.:p

Actually the UKGC has some excellent regulations though I can not testify to how rigorously they are imposed.
What I can say though is that RTG, MGS, Rival and Playtech would currently fail the mandatory technical requirements of the UKGC.

Play at your own risk :thumbsup:
 
Casino Managers should pay attention!

Online gaming, at least for those of us in the USA, has, for the most part, become a joke......and a risky one at that. Why bother? I'm spending more time in my land based casino which is one hour away. At least I can see what's going on and if I happen to win, I can walk away with it right then and there. I see no more sense in feeding something that has gone from a service / entertainment business to a predator enterprise, which is what most of these casinos have become, as evidenced by the quickness of funds disappearing in game play as of late. The writing is on the wall, for those of us willing to read what it says. Online gaming in the USA is taking it's last breaths as I type this and only the fools and their money will continue to be parted. ;)

What has online gaming done for us lately?

Rude customer support
Bonus banning, if you fall into some mysterious criteria in casino's matrix
Non response to emails when there are issues
Tighter games
Fewer comps
Arbitrary decision making not to pay wins
Slow or no pays
Increasing number of casinos using "discrepancy" or
"chargebacks at another casino" as an excuse not to pay
"Fraudulent player", even though no proof is offered
Impossible playthroughs on bonuses, given the RTP settings,
which are touted as high, but we all know they are low, but nobody is
telling. :eek:

Is it really worth it anymore?
BTW, please feel free to add to this list.
 
I guess whether it is still worth paying online is very much up to each individual.
Sometimes things have to get worse before they can better and maybe US policy was to sit back and watch it disintegrate before stepping up as the knight in shining armour and cleaning up - in every respect. :p
 
Only one replied (UKGC) with a link to their site.:eek2:
Over one week later and all the others are apparently taking the 5th.:p

At least you got one response even if it sent you back to where you started from. I sent e-mails and written requests to several online gaming commissions, requesting game regulation and game rules. Not one single response.

It’s amazing how certain online players, online casino advocates, online casino affiliates, alleged online casino regulators, and casino reps. insist on endless shoveling of shit down our throats while all of them completely are ignoring and derailing all of our requests regarding the simplest of requests for transparency. It’s amazing how any person that spends time at this forum amongst many others, or spent a fair amount of time actually playing online casinos, could come to any realistic view or conclusion that online gaming is a safe and fair playground.

There is nothing safe or fair about online gaming for the serious gambler. This crap as evolved into nothing more then the random depositor (non serious gambler) that as 20 or maybe 50 bucks to burn and instead of buying lottery tickets at the local corner store, try the games online with pretty close to the same odds of being a winner then actually getting paid.

As far as the alleged accredited casinos and recommended casinos being pushed all over the place is just another promotional tactic. Every casino software platform being used today has rogue casinos affiliated with them. That should tell everyone that the accredited ones also have the power to go rogue whenever they feel like it, or just haven’t been exposed yet. The 4 or 5 casinos really trying to do the right thing (at least for now) are just being overwhelmed by all the others.

In addition online casinos realize that players can eventually expose the real owners when they re-brand. Does anyone here really believe that by now they haven’t mastered how to get around that issue also? I wouldn’t be surprised with the recent new launches of RTG casinos if the hidden owners are from the Virtual Group.

Who in their right mind and with the money to actually invest in an online casino today wouldn't do research first and realize what it evolved into making them run for the hills. As far as I'm concerned online casinos only could draw certain types of investors.
 
Well Said 4 of a Kind!!

Yes, I agree with most of that, it is a mess.
All I would add is that affiliate forums such as Casinomeister give players the opportunity to at least express this view and while no one, not even Bryan, would claim that all accredited Casinos are guaranteed safe you can at least be sure that you have less chance of being ripped and more chance of a resolution when a problem occurs at an accredited casino.
That is worth something in my view and it doesn't matter to me if that results in a mutually better pay off for the Casinos and Bryan because the player is in the loop.
Bryan deserves every success because a lot of tremendous hard work has gone into this site.
Now compare that with Curacao a "official regulator" for a topical example.

So yes I agree completely about the state of regulation and online gaming but that unfortunate reality makes this forum and the accredited list more worthwhile in my view.

That is why I was recently banging on about changes to the accreditation requirements, I wouldn't bother if I considered it irrelevant or completely worthless.

PS

The UKGC has the most stringent regulations governing remote gaming of all the licensing jurisdictions I have read up on.
These regulations are relaxed somewhat for whitelisting purposes.
None whitelisted jurisdictions (other than perhaps Australian) have much weaker regulations again.

It is a sad fact that MGS, RTG, Rival, et al powered Casinos would not be granted a license by the UKGC as they do not meet the required standards.
 
It likely comes down to strength in numbers ladies and gentlemen. When a casino is rogued here essentially it is the same as saying no casinomeister member will play there anymore. It seems that this has little effect because they continue to operate business as usual.

I have no idea how many members are here on this forum but apparrently all of us banding together is still not enough to get answers. Try it for kicks set up a thread where all can sign up refusing to play at a certain casino until such and such is answered either we're not organized enough or there isn't enough of us to make a difference.
 
It likely comes down to strength in numbers ladies and gentlemen. When a casino is rogued here essentially it is the same as saying no casinomeister member will play there anymore. It seems that this has little effect because they continue to operate business as usual.

I have no idea how many members are here on this forum but apparrently all of us banding together is still not enough to get answers. Try it for kicks set up a thread where all can sign up refusing to play at a certain casino until such and such is answered either we're not organized enough or there isn't enough of us to make a difference.

The World Wide Web is much bigger than us handful of peons here. I like your idea though. :lolup:
 
I believe that the extreme actions that many rogue operators have taken over the years to damage Casinomeister is testament to it's efficacy in exposing questionable practice and warning players.

The problem is, and always has been:

1) Greed - some players cannot resist incentives, even when they emanate from known rogues

2) New blood - newbies entering online gambling do not carry out anough (if any) research. They blunder online and are easy prey for rogues that advertise OTT offers to the unwary. That new blood is what keeps the rogues ticking over.

Unfortunately newbies once bitten may never return to the industry again, or they get wise quickly and join up with forums where they can obtain and exchange information....like Casinomeister.

Edited to add:

Regarding regulators, it's not so much the content of their regulations, which can be strong and is often common in content with other regulators...it's their preparedness to enforce that is the real key. And that's where most them are lacking, along with player sensitivity.
 
I believe that the extreme actions that many rogue operators have taken over the years to damage Casinomeister is testament to it's efficacy in exposing questionable practice and warning players.

The problem is, and always has been:

1) Greed - some players cannot resist incentives, even when they emanate from known rogues

2) New blood - newbies entering online gambling do not carry out anough (if any) research. They blunder online and are easy prey for rogues that advertise OTT offers to the unwary. That new blood is what keeps the rogues ticking over.

Unfortunately newbies once bitten may never return to the industry again, or they get wise quickly and join up with forums where they can obtain and exchange information....like Casinomeister.

Edited to add:

Regarding regulators, it's not so much the content of their regulations, which can be strong and is often common in content with other regulators...it's their preparedness to enforce that is the real key. And that's where most them are lacking, along with player sensitivity.

I would argue that the regulations vary greatly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
With the better(whitelisted) regulators that license popular remote casinos the initial license requirements may be reasonable as far as financing and accounting and other general practices are concerned but are completely inadequate once that license is granted, particularly in the area of technical standards.(which if you are the player and want to know the games are fair is what really counts)

For example the UKGC has it's own technical standards which are quite detailed and relevant to fair gaming but no remote casinos using RTG, MG, Rival, Playtech software are licensed by them.
(Not certain if they have their own technicians,programmers etc carry out the tests but no mention of a 3rd party.)

Now lets take one of the most respected Whitelisted jurisdictions, Gibraltar.
They have no technical standards whatsoever!
How is this possible?
Because they allow their licensees to farm out system testing to "approved" third parties and if these third parties give the thumbs up then that is that, all fair.:thumbsup:

By the way eCOGRA and Gaming Associates are on the approved list.
:lolup:
It is the same when it comes to 3rd party auditing.Who audits the auditors?

Of course, as you state, even if the technical standards were made and initially tested by the regulator they quickly become irrelevant when they don't take a proactive role in enforcing regulation once a license is granted.

As you can see by the lack of response/unwillingness to answer from regulatory bodies to my questions this is also a huge problem.

In short, remote gaming regulation is a bad joke and players should be aware of this when deciding if Casino X is fair and above board.
 
Regulation does not exist period. Not in the slightest shape or form what so ever. Why all this talk about something that doesn’t exist.
 
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Can you supply me with a link to the 'detailed and relevant' technical testing and requirements of the UK Gambling Commission please?
 
Again I agree but there are some decent affiliates out there - definitely in the minority but they do exist.
 
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Seriously - I would like to follow up on your comments and try and ascertain how this jurisdiction implements its software testing requirements!

Edited to add - lots of reading to get through - more later!
 
Any casino that accepts US players would be a fool to be transparent as to ownership and such. Who wants to get arrested as they step off an airplane on US ground to change planes and fly home to the UK where they are perfectly legal and respected companies?

As long as the US refuses to regulate and instead maintains prohibition, we will never have any sort of transparency of any onlinegambling place that allows US players.

Jurisdictions where online gambling is legal and regulated really have no excuse..
 
Seriously - I would like to follow up on your comments and try and ascertain how this jurisdiction implements its software testing requirements!

Edited to add - lots of reading to get through - more later!

Is the link not working for you?
Wow just tried it and they have taken it down!
That is rather spooky since it was there and the link worked when I posted it.

Directly from their site on compliance though.

What is our approach to ensuring compliance?

Our compliance process concentrates on the effectiveness of licence holders' self-regulation. The type of compliance activity we undertake includes:

* carrying out reviews and visits
* giving specific advice or guidance to licence holders
* taking remedial or preventive action
* varying or imposing additional licence conditions
* reviewing financial information.


Unfortunately thus far they have declined to answer how often these compliance visits have taken place not that it matters since no remote Casino that anyone is familiar with is licensed by them.
If you really want to stick your head in some relevant literature you may be better off visiting the sites of the various regulatory bodies that purport to regulate the likes of Rival et al though the UKGC does provide some excellent cross reference material.

For example you may like to compare the applications forms for a remote license from Curacao and that from UKGC along with more obvious things such as technical standards (assuming they have any)

By the way this was the link I gave you which was working fine not long ago.

"http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/pdf/remote%20gambling%20and%20software%20technical%20standards%20-%20august%202009.pdf"


If you do a search on their site this link is still the one you get when checking the publication on remote standards - no idea why it is suddenly down.
 
The link was fine when I used it, for which thanks...hence the protracted and continuing reading, which so far has not convinced me that the UKGC is that much different in its basic requirements to other tier one jurisdictions.

They do appear to have taken the wise course of accepting the testing credentials of experienced and established external auditors and labs rather than attempting to do it themselves as civil servants, and have an 'acceptable testing agency' process for those who wish to be accredited.

But as I said earlier, it's how regulation is enforced that is the real key, and there are some (not many, I concede) jurisdictions that do just that.

Unfortunately, the UKGC does not have that many online gaming operators on its licensing list, probably because of the harsh tax regime which places a strain on competitiveness when compared with companies licensed in more pragmatic tax regions.

Sorry, but I don't buy into the extreme view that the industry is all bad, or that regulation does not exist in any way, shape or form. As a general observation it could certainly be applied more proactively and effectively in many cases, but it does exist.

For now I will reserve further comment until I have completed my reading and enquiries on the subject.
 
The link was fine when I used it, for which thanks...hence the protracted and continuing reading, which so far has not convinced me that the UKGC is that much different in its basic requirements to other tier one jurisdictions.

They do appear to have taken the wise course of accepting the testing credentials of experienced and established external auditors and labs rather than attempting to do it themselves as civil servants, and have an 'acceptable testing agency' process for those who wish to be accredited.

But as I said earlier, it's how regulation is enforced that is the real key, and there are some (not many, I concede) jurisdictions that do just that.

Unfortunately, the UKGC does not have that many online gaming operators on its licensing list, probably because of the harsh tax regime which places a strain on competitiveness when compared with companies licensed in more pragmatic tax regions.

Sorry, but I don't buy into the extreme view that the industry is all bad, or that regulation does not exist in any way, shape or form. As a general observation it could certainly be applied more proactively and effectively in many cases, but it does exist.

For now I will reserve further comment until I have completed my reading and enquiries on the subject.

No need to apologise to me, actually I have never said that the industry is all bad or that regulation does not exist in any way shape or form.

My position is that regulation exists but it is so weak and/or ineffectual in most cases that players can not be sure they are currently getting a fair game or that their complaints will be acted upon in an impartial and timely manner when playing at the majority of online casinos.

Far from that being an extreme position it is obviously the current reality and I don't think pretending otherwise or reminding people that not every apple is rotten will make the situation go away.
Hence, I make threads like this.

Regarding the literature, it is certainly heavy going and hardly a preferred choice of reading, granted.
The problem is that some of the terminology is not properly explained and open to interpretation, hence my "survey"

I agree and have stated previously that UKGC regulation is not directly relevant as most casinos choose to be licensed elsewhere though comparisons with other jurisdictions can be useful since UKGC regulations are generally stronger than their counterparts and they are much more likely to enforce and act upon them in some instances.
Even with all the goodwill in the world, if jurisdictions are not prepared to answer pertinent questions which directly relate to the safeguarding of the players interest and fair gaming one should question the motive behind this policy.
After all we the player are led to believe that is the whole point of regulation - without that belief they would not exist as the Casinos and players would have no use for them- so it is therefore important they are seen to be transparent.
The UKGC or others may argue that the transparency is in the publication of the literature but where this does not give clarity on certain issues and they refuse to address the situation then the argument becomes invalid.
Of course other jurisdictions are selective about what they publish so really it comes down to them being able to respond to specific concerns and give clarity - if they do not do this then, as I say, one should question motive.

If you find out which 3rd parties do the technical standard testing for the UKGC and how they are vetted that would be of interest to me.

"The UKGC is not that much different in its basic requirements to other tier one jurisdictions"
I couldn't disagree with that picture even if I wanted to because you are painting it with such a wide brush.
What are you classing as a tier one jurisdiction?
What are you classing as basic requirements?
How do you qualify, "not that different"?

This is actually a very difficult thing assess as it requires direct comparisons of all the publications made by each jurisdiction and just the omission or addition of a single line can be very important and as you know there are many, many lines.:p

I will give you a couple of very obvious differences though to start you off;
A license with the UKGC requires that the RTP of each game is shown.
It requires that any changes to the RTP or probability of events require that the player be informed on what these changes are.
There are a few more I reckon that are highly significant rather than just , "not that different" but that would require I go through it again and at the moment I have no need or desire to do that.
(nor can I get the damn page up)

I am generally satisfied with the UKGC regulations other than a little explanation of exactly what is meant in some of the terminology.
If all respectable casinos operated under such a regulatory regime I have no doubt the industry would be in a far better position and I for one, especially if clarity were given where requested, would be much happier about the players prospects of receiving a fair game and open and honest resolution of any problems.

I don't know how much more tax a UK licensed casino would need to pay as compared with say Gibraltar though I am sure you are right that this is an important factor when a Casino decides by which jurisdiction to be licensed.
I think though a more important factor is the strength of regulation and this would seem to be proven by the amount of casinos that set up in some of the weaker or even nefarious jurisdictions.

As I say the European union, the governments of the UK and more especially the US have all played their part in this situation - as always it comes down to money rather than what is the best way to protect their citizens from criminal enterprises.
In the US, Anti gambling laws masquerade as protection for the public rather than protection of state interests and in the UK a regulatory body that actually has teeth but remote casinos can side step so just to make the situation worse they invent the whitelist, a way to get in on the action and the player be damned if it aint all what it should be.

Good luck with holding a beacon to that lot and getting it to shine.
 
Not holding any beacon for anyone, so let's get that out of the way from the start and avoid derailing this discussion with implied personal sleights.

I'm more interested in seeing an honest balance in opinions rather than (as some of our members have done repeatedly) a bash fest that so often tars everyone and everything in the industry with the same brush.

That unfairly denigrates the many professional companies in the business, although I am often dismayed at the poor treatment that players are subjected to through bad management decisions.

However, I am glad to see that you are prepared to accept that the industry is not comprised entirely of bad apples, and that the accusation that regulation does not exist in any way, shape or form is perhaps a little too extreme. There are others here who nevertheless hold that view.

The UKGC is by no means the only effective regulator, as we have seen most recently in the actions of AAMS and ARJEL in Italy and France, and the growing commitments to regulatory activity in other European countries. It may be evolving in a nation-by-nation manner, but it is evolving and hopefully making it safer for the (European) player in the process.

Hopefully the Canadian provincial governments will, after an unpromising start at the BCLC, now start to learn from more experienced governments and apply effective regulation in the Great White North as well.

I was also pleased to learn that the UKGC has accepted the validity of output-based testing in addition to the more traditional certification of RNGs.

I am currently trying to ascertain whether the UKGC goes the additional step of insisting that inspections and annual reviews take place on-site, and whether it is itself overseen by an independent auditor on the principal quis custodiet ipsos custodes? or (loosely) who will watch the watchers?

If anything, the regulatory scene is improving imo as countries introduce more liberalised if nationally constrained regulation in lieu of monopolies and bans. And then there are major trade bodies like the European Betting and Gaming Association and the RGA pressuring their not inconsequential members to fly right and hew to best practice standards.

I am not going to start arguing nitty gritty at this stage, but I stand by my comment that following a first read there is little to distinguish the requirements and principles enshrined in the UKGC regulations from those of other reputable regulators concerned with addressing the fundamentals of effectively policing gambling operators.

Regarding the perceived 'weakness' of regulatory regimes, it is again perilous to generalise. I would suggest that the national regulators now appearing in Europe are far from toothless.

But I repeat - the best regulations in the world are useless if they are not accompanied by regulators with the strength and the will to impose them.
 
@ Rusty

"If you find out which 3rd parties do the technical standard testing for the UKGC and how they are vetted that would be of interest to me."

Here you go:

Approved test houses

Old / Expired Link

Criteria for test houses:

Old / Expired Link
 
Time out.

No idea on how or why you saw my comment, "good luck holding a beacon to that lot and getting it to shine" as a personal slight.
It was obviously statement about the current state of remote gambling regulation.

When you say you are glad I am prepared to accept the industry is not comprised entirely of bad apples you are again implying that I somehow argued otherwise previously. As I have pointed out once already this is not correct and I would prefer not to have to point this out in every reply.

I don't think either of us are guilty of personalising the issues we are just using language in the same way in an attempt to advance our arguments and as long as it is civil and we have the right to reply that is just a normal part of debate.No offence intended, none taken.
Back on topic in the next post.:thumbsup:
 
I consider your post very optimistic and there is no real evidence that things are improving IMO, we differ there.

What you suggest is evidence of improvement such as France and Italy joining the UK on bringing tougher regulation to their respective countries is unfortunately irrelevant to today's remote gaming industry.
When these countries are actually attracting and regulating the majority of online casinos rather than less than 1% then it will be more relevant.
As you say,
the best regulations in the world are useless if they are not accompanied by regulators with the strength and the will to impose them.

When it comes to your comments on the UKGC, I am always interested, but again we have to remind ourselves they are currently largely irrelevant to the online gaming industry when we are considering how the majority of casinos are currently regulated(if at all).
I was also pleased to learn that the UKGC has accepted the validity of output-based testing in addition to the more traditional certification of RNGs.

RNG testing certification is important but it only tests the hardware and not the software that manages the RNG output.
I know that technical standards apply to the software as well and it is these that require much scrutiny.

I am currently trying to ascertain whether the UKGC goes the additional step of insisting that inspections and annual reviews take place on-site, and whether it is itself overseen by an independent auditor on the principal quis custodiet ipsos custodes? or (loosely) who will watch the watchers?

Certainly something worth knowing.
Also not only if inspections take place on site but if the operator had foreknowledge of these inspections.
Hopefully they would also check that the software is always run from the same server unless they are informed otherwise and that no other version of the software existed on said server.

The reason I see the UKGC worthy of discussion even though they do not currently regulate any remote casinos that house popular software such as MGS, RTG et al is because it can help us define what level of regulation is satisfactory since they pretty much lead the way IMO.

I am not going to start arguing nitty gritty at this stage, but I stand by my comment that following a first read there is little to distinguish the requirements and principles enshrined in the UKGC regulations from those of other reputable regulators concerned with addressing the fundamentals of effectively policing gambling operators.

Well I will argue it then because it is fundamental to the argument you are making that there is no real distinction to be made between the UKGC and other jurisdictions.

To that end here are some of the most important regulations concerning technical standards from the UKGC.
I would argue that all remote gaming licensing authorities that wish to be taken seriously need to have these regulations as a minimum prerequisite.
If your argument is valid then many licensing authorities will have these regulations and where not you should be able to argue why you consider such regulations superfluous to requirement.

An explanation of the applicable rules must be easily available to the customer before they commit to gamble. The content including artwork and text must be accurate, and sufficient to explain all of the applicable rules and how to participate. All reasonable steps must be taken to ensure that the content is understandable.

(All jurisdictions that license Rival casinos have failed to implement this if it is a requirement)

iii. restrictions on play or betting, such as any play duration limits, maximum wins, etc
(How many MG, RTG et al casinos have you had a pop up warning about your play time - obviously this is not implemented by all jurisdictions they are licensed by)

ii. house edge (or margin)
(How many fails here?)

iii. the return to player (RTP) percentage
(How many fails here?)

iv. the probability (likelihood) of winning events occurring.
(How many fails here?)

f. Displays of jackpot amounts that change over time (‘progressives’) should be updated as frequently as practicable, particularly after the amount has been reset following a win.

All reasonable steps should be taken to ensure that gambles are accepted, processed and settled in accordance with the operator’s published terms and rules, and the rules of the specific game, event, or bet.
Where unexpected system flaws, faults, or errors that affect the customer occur, steps are to be taken as soon as practicable to remedy the problem and ensure that the customer is treated fairly according to the circumstances.

(Not sure but perhaps bonuses that are incorrectly applied to ineligible deposits would fail here)
(If not then perhaps below)
c. Customers should be notified when errors that affect them, for example, incorrectly settled bets, have occurred as soon as practicable after the event occurs. Steps should be taken to rectify the error, for example, by manually adjusting the customer’s account.

b. The mapping of the random inputs to game outcomes should be in accordance with prevailing probabilities, pay tables, etc
(Just a couple of lines but hugely important)

c. When random numbers, scaled or otherwise, are received, e.g. following a game requesting a sequence of random numbers, they are to be used in the order in which they are received. For example, they may not be discarded due to adaptive behaviour.

d. Numbers or sequences of numbers are not to be discarded, unless they fall outside the expected range of numbers required by the virtual event – such an occurrence should result in an error being logged and investigated.

(Two more hugely important regulations, especially when it comes to free game outcomes)

c. Games may not falsely display near-miss results, that is, the event may not substitute one losing outcome with a different losing outcome.
(I am pretty sure this is being breached if it is a regulation that applies to (Rival especially) RTG, MG et al especially regarding the frequency of 2 scatters)

Where the event requires a pre-determined layout (for example, hidden prizes on a map), the locations of the winning spots should not change during play, except as provided for in the rules of the game.
(This is obviously breached by all RTG - a perfect example would be Golden Lotus slot or Warlocks spell)

The rules, payouts and outcome probabilities of a virtual event or game may not be changed while it is available for gambling, except as provided for in the rules of the game, lottery or virtual event. Such changes must be brought to customer’s attention.
(many failures here)
(and here)
a. Changes to game or event rules, paytables or other parameters that change the way in which a game, lottery, or event works, the winnings paid, or likelihood of winning (except as described in 7Dc.), should be conducted with the game or event taken offline or suspended.
(and here)
b. Altered games, lotteries, and events should display a notice that informs customers that the game or event has been changed, for example, ‘rules changed’, ’new odds’, or ’different payouts’.

Auto-play must be implemented in such a way that the customer is able to control the amount gambled through selecting the stake and the number of auto-play gambles. The number of auto-play gambles may not exceed 25 in one batch.
(All fail)
c. Auto-play should not override any of the display requirements (for example, the result of each gamble must be displayed for a reasonable length of time before the next gamble commences, as set out in RTS 7E).

In implementing this control(Autoplay), the following should be considered, where appropriate:
i. if there is a standard strategy, for example, for well known games like blackjack, the standard strategy should be used

(I think some fail here, especially with regards to some VP)



Gambling products must not actively encourage customers to chase their losses, increase their stake or increase the amount they have decided to gamble, or continue to gamble after they have indicated that they wish to stop.
(I think this includes automatic bonuses being applied to accounts)

There are quite a few others that I don't believe are met by popular software or Casinos but could be considered superfluous to requirement IMO and this is just the technical standards section of regulation.
 
That's a pretty offhand dismissal of the significantly growing regulatory trend for online gambling in Europe, I have to say.

Irrelevant to today's online gambling industry? I think not. Taking France and Italy alone, these are significant markets in which major companies are making substantial investments, and there are several others emerging.

Neither do I believe that I am being optimistic regarding the potentially beneficial impact of nationally-oriented regulation as a trend.

To be honest, I have neither the inclination or the time to wade through the detailed gambling regulations of umpteen different regulators using several languages in order to compare their detailed requirements with those of the UKGC....all for the sake of a message board argument.

Presumably you have done so and are confident that the individual elements you have posted will not be found, indicating that the British regulations are superior to all others. In the absence on my part of any intention to carry out such a time-consuming survey I must therefore take your word for it.

My argument remains that the fundamentals of safety, fairness, responsibility, probity and integrity are all commonly addressed by leading regulators, and that consequently the industry is hardly bereft of regulation, albeit confined to national levels in responsible jurisdictions.
 
That's a pretty offhand dismissal of the significantly growing regulatory trend for online gambling in Europe, I have to say.

Irrelevant to today's online gambling industry? I think not. Taking France and Italy alone, these are significant markets in which major companies are making substantial investments, and there are several others emerging.

Neither do I believe that I am being optimistic regarding the potentially beneficial impact of nationally-oriented regulation as a trend.

To be honest, I have neither the inclination or the time to wade through the detailed gambling regulations of umpteen different regulators using several languages in order to compare their detailed requirements with those of the UKGC....all for the sake of a message board argument.

Presumably you have done so and are confident that the individual elements you have posted will not be found, indicating that the British regulations are superior to all others. In the absence on my part of any intention to carry out such a time-consuming survey I must therefore take your word for it.

My argument remains that the fundamentals of safety, fairness, responsibility, probity and integrity are all commonly addressed by leading regulators, and that consequently the industry is hardly bereft of regulation, albeit confined to national levels in responsible jurisdictions.

Offhand dismissal?
I give you facts and you give me your opinion based on what exactly?
It is a blatant fact they are irrelevant unless you are going to furnish me with a long list of remote gaming casinos licensed by France and Italy.
Are there any at all?
Like I say throw the UK in as well and it is less than 1% of remote casinos and a big round 0% of MGS, RTG, Rival, Playtech... pretty irrelevant by any standard when it comes to enforcing regulation on them.

You talk of potential regulation and the potential beneficial impact of this potential regulation, you name licensing authorities that are irrelevant when it comes to regulating casinos licensed elsewhere (which is all) and without any explanation of how this will change in the future or without any of this potential being yet realised declare things are improving.
I call that optimistic even if you don't.

To be honest, I have neither the inclination or the time to wade through the detailed gambling regulations of umpteen different regulators using several languages in order to compare their detailed requirements with those of the UKGC....all for the sake of a message board argument.

Well I don't blame you, it is hard work and time consuming and I guess it requires a strong conviction to the truth to spend time on this stuff.
I know I have a million things I would rather do.
I am disappointed though that you have such a dismissive attitude (trivialising it as message board argument does neither us or the forum any favours) to the points we have discussed thus far and the facts which I have taken the time and trouble to make clear.
They were after all in response to you putting forward your alternate view on the current state of regulation.

Yes I am confident that many of the regulations I have pointed out are not enforced by other regulators but in an effort to help you (and to limit how much you would need to check this) I put in parenthesis an explanation of why this is so under the relevant regulations.
Sorry you did not find this helpful but far from having to take my word for it you are free to challenge any of it and to suggest otherwise is ridiculous.


My argument remains that the fundamentals of safety, fairness, responsibility, probity and integrity are all commonly addressed by leading regulators, and that consequently the industry is hardly bereft of regulation, albeit confined to national levels in responsible jurisdictions.

I wouldn't expect anything else and while we don't differ with some of that you are missing many important points. (all previously made)
By the way, can you guess the most popular regulatory bodies amongst remote Casinos?
Go on, have a guess. Here is a clue, it's not France or Italy. ;)
 
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Who Audits the Auditors.

It is the same when it comes to 3rd party auditing.Who audits the auditors?

Of course, as you state, even if the technical standards were made and initially tested by the regulator they quickly become irrelevant when they don't take a proactive role in enforcing regulation once a license is granted.

As you can see by the lack of response/unwillingness to answer from regulatory bodies to my questions this is also a huge problem.

This is a great point, and a fantastic thread at that. This is my first post - I just HAVE to take part in this discussion. This is the discussion all affiliates need to be having. My name is Devon, and I work for an affiliate site, Online Casino Suite, and we have likewise sent emails to regulatory jurisdictions - namely Curacao - and have gotten no response. eCOGRA's CEO, Andrew Beveridge did get back to me about Curacao and said they are trying to make some transparency headway in Curacao.

But even more so, I think it's these third party accreditors like Technical Systems Testing, that need to be way more accountable. For example, just about every Top Game powered casino out there boasts the TST logo on their homepage. Most don't even link to a certificate, while other links to a Word document "press release" stating that the TST software platform has been deemed fair. Sure, the software platform has been deemed fair at the source. But when we are talking about an online casino based in Costa Rica, where "regulation" doesn't exist, a TST logo doesn't mean jack.

I have contacted TST numerous times (short of hounding them), asking for some explanation and encouraging them to get their act together. At a minimum, TST should have a web page listing all accredited casinos.

I guess where I'm going with this is that I encourage all affiliates out there to be shooting off these emails to the likes of TST, CFG, Curacao etc. The more they hear from more of us, the sooner they will get their acts together. Sure, getting regulation in the U.S. will help, but there is no telling when that will happen. We all need to do our part NOW. It's our responsibility as ethical affiliates.

Anyone interested, here's a link to that email sent to TST. Please feel free to use it as a template: Old / Expired Link

(mods, sorry about posting a hyperlink...not sure if this is permitted. The url should be enough) Thx
 
This is the discussion all affiliates need to be having. My name is Devon, and I work for an affiliate site, Online Casino Suite, and we have likewise sent emails to regulatory jurisdictions - namely Curacao - and have gotten no response. eCOGRA's CEO, Andrew Beveridge did get back to me about Curacao and said they are trying to make some transparency headway in Curacao.


We all need to do our part NOW. It's our responsibility as ethical affiliates.


Comments like these coming from an affiliate is a refreshing change for most players.

Unfortunately, your new here and will soon realize you are going against the grain. All affiliates and advocates will always come to the defense of the casinos. (unless there is absolutely no choice) It has become obvious to most that personal financial gain is the predominate motivator for affiliates and advocates.

Affiliates and advocates have no intentions or desire to clean this mess up. Just consider the mess online gaming has evolved into today. They only pretend to care when they have no choice and can't just write off the player has a whinny cry baby, bitching, loser. This same attitude is even used against professional gamblers.

Try to find one thread or post here, where a affiliate or advocate like yourself is pursing anything to do with fairness other then when they have no choice but to respond when someone might be threatening their income.

You'll soon realize that all efforts to clean online gaming up is being done by the players with limited resources.
 
This is a great point, and a fantastic thread at that. This is my first post - I just HAVE to take part in this discussion. This is the discussion all affiliates need to be having. My name is Devon, and I work for an affiliate site, Online Casino Suite, and we have likewise sent emails to regulatory jurisdictions - namely Curacao - and have gotten no response. eCOGRA's CEO, Andrew Beveridge did get back to me about Curacao and said they are trying to make some transparency headway in Curacao.

But even more so, I think it's these third party accreditors like Technical Systems Testing, that need to be way more accountable. For example, just about every Top Game powered casino out there boasts the TST logo on their homepage. Most don't even link to a certificate, while other links to a Word document "press release" stating that the TST software platform has been deemed fair. Sure, the software platform has been deemed fair at the source. But when we are talking about an online casino based in Costa Rica, where "regulation" doesn't exist, a TST logo doesn't mean jack.

I have contacted TST numerous times (short of hounding them), asking for some explanation and encouraging them to get their act together. At a minimum, TST should have a web page listing all accredited casinos.

I guess where I'm going with this is that I encourage all affiliates out there to be shooting off these emails to the likes of TST, CFG, Curacao etc. The more they hear from more of us, the sooner they will get their acts together. Sure, getting regulation in the U.S. will help, but there is no telling when that will happen. We all need to do our part NOW. It's our responsibility as ethical affiliates.

Anyone interested, here's a link to that email sent to TST. Please feel free to use it as a template: Old / Expired Link

(mods, sorry about posting a hyperlink...not sure if this is permitted. The url should be enough) Thx

Welcome to the forum and thank you for your support.
I understand 4ofakinds cynicism, it is well placed but I don't believe the industry is rotten to the core, or at least if it is there are still undamaged seeds within that core from which something can grow renewed.
I believe you are part of a new generation of affiliates that want transparency and accountability. There are others here.
The old guard are still in place though, fiercely protecting their interests and weak banner farm sites while turning their back on their clients.
Their days are numbered, the bar is being raised and new standards will be set.
Leave the rogue casinos to the rogue affiliates, respectable affiliates only promote respectable casinos and this will ensure the cream will rise to the top while the slurry sinks but things may get worse for a while yet before they get better.
Keep up the good work.
 
Here are some extracts of a rather damning Consultation on the Regulatory Future of Remote Gambling in Great Britain issued by the department of Sport and Culture - a UK governmental department concerned with remote gaming regulation.
The reason for the consultation was because of the current failing policy that has seen remote gaming sites leave the UK in order to escape such regulation and locate to other, "just give me the money", jurisdictions.
It also deals with the failed attempt of whitelisting offering some form of protection for UK (but this applies to anyone who plays at casinos based in the jurisdictions which is the vast majority) citizens.

The full published paper can be found
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and for anyone serious about regulation and it's relevance I recommend you read at least these extracts as it very much echoes concerns I have detailed and argued here.
Remember this is public document issued by a government department so the language is necessarily dispassionate but if you dwell upon what is written it will become clear this is a desperate attempt to give UK gambling regulation some relevance in the new world order of remote gaming.

A Consultation on the Regulatory Future of Remote Gambling in Great Britain


{My notes in braces} coloured text, underline and some bold added for effect.

The Current System

2.7 It is estimated that there are currently between 2000-2500 gambling websites worldwide. The Commission currently has approximately 150 remote licensees that can offer internet betting, casino or bingo. Of these, fewer than 100 are active, consisting of some large betting operators but mainly small betting operators.{none of these are what players here would consider mainstream casinos with MG, Playtech,Rival, RTG etc software} The Commission’s industry statistics paper for 2008 gives the remote sector’s gross gambling yield (GGY) at approximately £890 million with approximately £850 million generated from remote betting operations
(Includes GGY from Ladbrokes, Skybet and William Hill who are no longer licensed by the Commission to provide internet gambling.)

The White List
2.8 Under section 331(4) of the Act, the Secretary of State has the power to designate certain countries or places permitted to advertise remote gambling services in the UK. That list is more commonly referred to as the white list and jurisdictions that wish to be included must demonstrate that their regulatory system for gambling is robust and meets the Government’s published criteria.

2.9 The Government does not demand that a jurisdiction’s licensing and regulatory regime must mirror that of the UK: the key question is whether a jurisdiction has embedded within its regulatory regime the same core values which underpin ours. That is to say, that they too regulate gambling in order to protect children and vulnerable people from being harmed or exploited; to keep crime out; and to ensure that gambling is conducted fairly, and that they have the facilities and resources in place to ensure compliance and enforcement with those values and the regulatory regime in operation
{Obviously this has failed badly and so this consultation and..}

The Need for Change
concerns were raised by Parliamentarians and others as to whether the current protections for British consumers are sufficient, given that an increasing number of gambling operators are now regulated offshore, outside the scope of the Act and the Commission’s regulation.

3.5 However, our initial work has shown that whilst British consumers make up a significant proportion of the European remote gambling market, our domestic regulator {UKGC}, tasked with upholding the licensing objectives of the Act, is regulating increasingly fewer gambling operators. Following the implementation of the Act, no major remote gaming operators chose to relocate their overseas operation in Britain.

3.6 Furthermore, a number of remote betting operators previously licensed by the Commission have recently relocated overseas to compete with their overseas competitors accessing the British market. Such moves put pressure on other operators licensed by the Commission to follow suit in order to compete and have had a significant effect on the size of the remote gambling market regulated by the Commission. It therefore seems appropriate to look again at the current system to ensure that the protections enshrined in the Act continue to be afforded to British consumers.

3.7 Over recent years, internet gambling has grown considerably
Global Betting and Gaming Consultants (2008) estimate that worldwide online gambling revenues were US$16.6 billion in 2008.
Even with the economic downturn many remote operators are reporting increases in revenues and it is likely that growth will only continue as more and more people gain access to the internet and e-commerce becomes mainstream.

3.10 Many European and international countries such as France, Italy, Denmark and South Africa are moving from a prohibition stance to a national licensing and regulation system based upon a set of requirements for operators wanting to access their particular market and target their consumers. This is in contrast to some existing offshore remote jurisdictions where the regulation is not provided for the protection of their citizens but for operators using their jurisdiction as an outward facing hub from which to access other markets. In particular, we are aware that some offshore jurisdictions which license remote gambling do not permit their own citizens to access that gambling.

3.13 As such, the specific provisions of the 2005 Act, and associated Commission requirements such as anti-money laundering and sports integrity reporting, probity of operators and testing of software may not necessarily be enforceable requirements for the majority of the remote operators with whom British consumers gamble.

Standards and Software testing
3.14 There are differences in the requirements imposed on operators by gambling regulators in overseas jurisdictions which can result in different protection measures for British consumers, depending upon where the operator or website is regulated.

3.15 Commission licensed operators must undergo rigorous independent software testing to ensure fairness of games to consumers. They must also adhere to information security standards based on recognised international standards and designed to safeguard player data, funds and gambling operations from accidental or malicious misuse. Overseas licensed operators have different levels of testing and security requirements and the Commission is not able to assess their robustness. This may ultimately mean that consumers are gambling on websites that have not been independently tested or audited to the standards expected of Commission licensees.

Fairness
4.4 We consider that consistency in regulatory standards is closely linked to the issue of fairness – all operators active in the British gambling market should be required to adhere to the same standards, requirements and obligations in respect of social Department for Culture, Media and Sport
responsibility. Not all jurisdictions have the same requirements and so operators in those jurisdictions with less robust regulations do not have the same administrative or regulatory burdens imposed thus creating a competitive advantage at the possible expense of the consumer

Options in respect of EEA member states and Gibraltar
4.8 Taking into account the criteria set out above, we have considered a range of options in respect of EEA member states and Gibraltar.

4.9 We considered the following options, explored in further detail below:
1) Do nothing;
2) Introduce non-statutory changes to the system, such as Memoranda of Understanding (MOUs) with other regulators, and increased regulatory co-operation;
3) Introduce the need for such operators to obtain a licence to enable them to advertise in the UK; and
4) Introduce the need for such operators to obtain a licence to enable them to transact with British consumers and advertise in the UK.



4.31 The Government believes that this option{option 4} represents the most appropriate way forward warranting closer scrutiny and consideration. Further detail is explored in Chapter 5.


Options for non-EEA jurisdictions

a) Improve the white listing system for non-EEA jurisdictions;
b) Develop a more streamlined white listing process as well as introduce licensing for operators in white listed jurisdictions; and
c) Abolish the white list and introduce a licensing system for operators in all non-EEA jurisdictions.



Option b) Develop a more streamlined white listing process as well as introduce licensing for operators in white listed jurisdictions

4.42 This is the Government’s preferred option. Under this option we would retain the principle of the white list by developing a more streamlined process to assess certain key criteria relating to a jurisdiction’s statutory and regulatory framework, but we would also require operators in white listed jurisdictions to obtain a Commission licence in order that they may transact with and advertise to British consumers[/U]. Further information regarding this option is set out in chapter 5.
 
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I appreciate your point of view 4ofaKind, and absolutely see there is truth to what you say. Admittedly, many of my attempts thus far have (seemingly) proven futile, but I encourage myself with the thought that the message is being heard and there is energy moving in that direction.

I've actually been around in the industry since 2000, and have seen an overall improvement in affiliate content and online casino transparency. I'll keep pushing for greater transparency wherever I see a need... whether or not anybody else does.

But it helps with encouragement like Rusty's! Thanks man. It's really good to know there are other's out there doing the same :)
 
I hope the above consultation that ended in June can achieve some of its aims and make the UKGC regulation relevant to the remote casino market but
unfortunately there is the ridiculous situation of taxation not being a part of this consultation as red tape dictates this is the sole preserve of the treasury - could they not have been included in the consultation?

If the new recommendations are implemented and acted upon then, as I see it, we will have the absurd situation of licensing jurisdictions themselves being licensed by the UKGC and so free to have their own regulation as long as it is compliant with UKGC regulation and yet the UK government will still not be benefiting from tax revenue of profits generated from its citizens.

(and by the way there is no mention of jurisdictions having to change common law so that gambling debts are enforceable :rolleyes:)

This is a typically complex bureaucratic solution that is almost certainly doomed to failure to what is essentially a simple problem.
To give the UKGC regulation relevance it first needs to attract big players in the remote gaming market - try to catch whales by casting a hastily prepared thin net far and wide and don't be surprised if it is just full of large holes when you come to land your catch.

No, what is needed is the bait (incentive) with which to lure the whales to your strong tight net and that incentive in this case is profit.

Currently, virtually all, remote casinos will always seek out weaker regulatory jurisdictions because they are also cheaper and importantly they get to keep more of their profits. The only way to change that is to give them a realistic and competitive option.
Reduce the tax to competitive levels for UK based remote casinos and advertise the fact that you are the strongest remote gaming regulatory body.
That legitimises Casinos based in the UK and gives them excellent promotional power to increase their customer base while giving them financial incentive to take advantage of this.
At the same time the UKGC gets increased funding and the Government gain increased revenue while the player gets increased protection.

Whatever issue the treasury has with reducing taxes for remote gaming profits to make the market competitive needs to be addressed and re-evaluated urgently.
 

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