Microgamings idea of random

[Rusty]

Slot Mega Moolah 5 wheel drive.
lines = 15 bet= 60

Total spins 250
spins before win greater than x3 hit 160!
Largest win x8!
Jackpot attempts given Zero
Free spins won Zero
RTP 50%
:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy

Old Attachment (Invalid)

Please come again.

 

[aceking123]

its RANDOM honest !

 

[hitobito2005]

I expect the average RTP is pretty low anyway considering it's a Progressive version, maybe 90%.

Pretty unlucky there though!

 

[aceking123]

you should try roulette for even worst results at mg casinos , i could safely say another slot type of play. but they keep telling its random . what would be the odds of covering 83.6 on the single numbers & losing 10 spins ???

 

[love2winalot]

Hiya: MrJones. You had bet 31 of the 37 numbers. Please post the 6 numbers you did not bet on, and i will scim through my recorded Roulette results and give you a, "Better/Real World" answer to your question.

Here is a real example of real spins. you bet the 0, and leave numbers 1-6 open. breaking it down into 111 spin sequences, here is some results of most losses in a row. 2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-3-2-3-2.2-2-3-2-2-4-2-2-2-2-2. This is the results of a total of 1554 spins.

Using this as the true life example. Here are your results.
Bet $1 ea on 31 numbers. = +5 on a win, and -31 on a loss. My initial review showed 4 losses a row as the most. Also, were you just flat betting?

Oh, for anyone interested on this, if you decided to use a progression, betting this many numbers, here is the deal.
$1 bet on 31 numbers, is +5, or a loss=-$31 on that spin, and -$31 total
$7 bet on 31 numbers, is $4 net, or a loss of $217 on that spin, and -$248 net
$44 bet on 31 numbers is $3 net, or a loss of $1364 on that spin, and -$4836 net

Most casino's have a $25 max bet on a single number. So, if you had bet $1, then $7, then $25, you have a net loss of $1023 every time #'s like 6-2-4 hit in a row. If you had bet like this for real over the 1554 spins, you would have a net gain of $1305. But one more loss when they hit 3 or more in a row and you net gain goes down to $282, and of course 1 more loss and you are at minus $740, and need 165 wins in a row to get back to positive.

 

[aceking123]

hi love2win . neighbours bets mainly , these are numbers missed , 7,28,29 ,0 3,35,15 ,26 last 4 spins was by memory was what came in . 15,32,15,32, what are those chances total loss just in those four spins over 500 pounds, tbh im thinking that the software knows where my bets are placed , ive done maybe of 10,000 + spins at mg casinos & can vouch that pretty much 9 times out of ten you know you get that little pause then you already know your going to lose it hits these uncovered numbers by the book most of the time , time & time again i hear that these are random , i just cant get it round my head ,if its a machine it knows ,if it was live i wouldnt even bother to mention it.

 

[love2winalot]

Hiya: Mr Jones, at the 4 Queens, here in Las Vegas, i have seen the number 6 hit five times in a row. At the Flamingo i have seen this hit in a row, 7-12-12-7-12-7. So Yes it is rare, but things like this DO happen every once in a while.

THE RNG has Idenified my betting pattern, and is MAKING me Lose.

This has been said a lot. The Casino, and type of RNG does not matter, there are Players who Truely do believe this. To those players I say this, "Hit the REPEAT Bet Button, and after that remove a couple of chips, and add a couple of chips someplace else, then hit SPIN.

If you think the Casino is not giving you a fair game, cash out what ever is left, and go play someplace else. If you think, "All" casino's on the Net, do not give a fair game, Then don't gamble on the Net anymore.

 

[Rusty]

Hiya: Mr Jones, at the 4 Queens, here in Las Vegas, i have seen the number 6 hit five times in a row. At the Flamingo i have seen this hit in a row, 7-12-12-7-12-7. So Yes it is rare, but things like this DO happen every once in a while.

THE RNG has Idenified my betting pattern, and is MAKING me Lose.

This has been said a lot. The Casino, and type of RNG does not matter, there are Players who Truely do believe this. To those players I say this, "Hit the REPEAT Bet Button, and after that remove a couple of chips, and add a couple of chips someplace else, then hit SPIN.

If you think the Casino is not giving you a fair game, cash out what ever is left, and go play someplace else. If you think, "All" casino's on the Net, do not give a fair game, Then don't gamble on the Net anymore

You could also add that you could try to make things fairer by bringing issues to light and publicising them.

If I were testing the roulette I would bet 36 numbers which would give a clearer indication if there were any manipulation of the results. (I know you can't win but this is a test)
You would still need an awful lot of data though before you could make any reasonable conclusions.

 

[love2winalot]

[quoteYou would still need an awful lot of data though before you could make any reasonable conclusions.][/quote]

Hiya: This is totally correct. Not only would you need a lot of data, but you would need data from different sources, Different On Line casino's, Different RNG's, and then be able to compair that data with, B&M Casino's Results.

This would require some kind of Nut Case to be the guinnie pig to do all this. They would have to move to a Casino town like, Las Vegas or someplace. They would have to walk around like an Idiot recording all the results. They would have to open several On Line Casino accts:, and record all the results from there. They would have to be risking their own money, and not just playing for free. But where on earth could you ever hope to find such a person? hehehehehehe........

 

[Nifty29]

Slot Mega Moolah 5 wheel drive.
lines = 15 bet= 60

Total spins 250
spins before win greater than x3 hit 160!
Largest win x8!
Jackpot attempts given Zero
Free spins won Zero
RTP 50%

C'mon Rusty. You have been around long enough to know that 250 spins means absolutely nothing when it comes to measuring RTP - and also to know that a progressive slot will pay a lower RTP on the reel portion to pay for the progressive jackpot.

The results you posted could be of a random nature - just about any results can be random, as they are just that - random - and future results do not depend on past results.

If you suspect that these games are not random, then why do you continually play them???? ]

Coming back time and time again making these 'casinos cheat' statements while continuing to play reduces the credibility of those statements to zero IMO. I mean, you obviously dont give your own thoughts any credence as you just keep playing, so why should anyone else??

Post something like "I think all casinos cheat and arent random and I am never playing another cent as a result" and you would have my respect for sure.

 

[maphesto]

If you suspect that these games are not random, then why do you continually play them????

You seem to think that a non random game equals cheating? Why?

Post something like "I think all casinos cheat and arent random and I am never playing another cent as a result" and you would have my respect for sure.

My guess is that Rusty knows that the games are not random and sometimes when it becomes too obvious for him he has to tell someone. I understand it.

I will continue the funny rant then.

The totally random game Tunzamunni D) is one of my favourites.

Almost 10 times I have seen

7 7 7

in a row on the line just above or below my payline.

If that one occurs on payline jackpot is won (It's on 34 000$ right now). The same with 3 white sevens in a row, I only see that one above or under my payline. I think 3 white sevens pays 500$.

All other combinations have been seen on my payline and not just above or under.

Do I get mad over this even if the game isn't totally random?

No, of course not. I play it and when 3 sevens occurs (minimum 20 bucks) I take the win and then leave the machine with a win. Because the machine never hits for a while after 3 sevens occurs.

 

[Nifty29]

You seem to think that a non random game equals cheating? Why?

If the casino states that the game is random, and it actually is not, then it is cheating - its a long way from saying that all non-random games are cheating.

Rusty is saying that MG claims their slot spins are random, but he believes they are not. So, in his eyes, they are 'cheating'.

The 3-reel slots are almost always programmed using the 'near miss' principle....it is a ploy to make players think they 'just missed' the big win, when in fact they were no closer than if there were no 7's on the screen at all.

 

[maphesto]

The 3-reel slots are almost always programmed using the 'near miss' principle....it is a ploy to make players think they 'just missed' the big win, when in fact they were no closer than if there were no 7's on the screen at all.

Just the answer I wanted!

Do you really mean that they programmed the random game to fool me to believe that I was close to the big win? How is it then random?

Give me your explanation and then I will give you mine.

 

[Nifty29]

Just the answer I wanted!

Do you really mean that they programmed the random game to fool me to believe that I was close to the big win? How is it then random?

Give me your explanation and then I will give you mine.

Well, first let me say I am not a programmer and can only speak about what I have read from several experts etc over the years from several sources.

To make it easier, lets just say there are 100 possible results @$1 per spins and all of them must add together to make the 95% RTP. The spin result is decided by 2 questions - is it win or lose, and (if win) how much.

So, the total of the 'win' spins must equal $95 and will be made up of different winning combinations, with the specific amount of each win being displayed as a certain arrangement of symbols on the winning line e.g. 3 7s or 3 bars etc etc. In other words, the win amount is decided first and then the program displays the appropriate images. Lets leave this bit now.

If it is a 'lose' spin, then the program can decide what the 'lose' spin will look like. So, what I am saying in essence, is that the programmers can code in such a way that the 'lose' spins are often displayed as being 'close' to a big win, when in fact its just a way of saying 'you lost' - the difference being that they want to 'tease' you into playing some more.

It is possible for the results to be random, but the display of those results to be manipulated. In this way, the game will still pay what it should. After all, what does it matter what the losing spin displays? You lose just the same as if you had 3 blanks etc, but you are more likely to keep spinning if you seem to be 'close' to a win.

I know its a very simple example but I hope it makes sense.

 

[aceking123]

hi , winalot , im saying that over more than 10 years of playing more often than not, you tend to see these blank numbers coming into play more & more often , & yes you have to have a fair number of spins to got a full good audit ,but as a semi skilled player , im saying that the software does in fact know where your betting & if roulette is losing it will switch to hitting those numbers, how come i see sometimes 4 28,s 0r 5 28s come in a row , now bare in mind i dont play that number , but this never ever happens to one of my numbers ive had this on many occasions & before people jump up to defend the casinos & software ,ive never ever had such a bad run at a land based casino which ive been doing for over 20 years , yes ive lost but at least ive hit a single number ,roulette & blackjack on mg,rtg is just as bad ,i could ask how many people would would say that these games are correct & no doubt find that alot of people would get what im saying & i dont mind losing at all ,but i at least would like a fair game wins losses , but rarely do you get these with mg casinos & rtg casinos ,also i shall point out that i dont realy play chicken feed i play normal stakes , i see the format between mg & rtg softwares where it comes to table games you either win or lose mainly lose i would say round about one session win in 20-30 sessions .jmop though .

 

[DiamondGeezer]

If the casino states that the game is random, and it actually is not, then it is cheating - its a long way from saying that all non-random games are cheating.

Rusty is saying that MG claims their slot spins are random, but he believes they are not. So, in his eyes, they are 'cheating'.

The 3-reel slots are almost always programmed using the 'near miss' principle....it is a ploy to make players think they 'just missed' the big win, when in fact they were no closer than if there were no 7's on the screen at all.

No that is not it. It's not a case of programming but reel layout I think. Am sure someone cleverer than me can prove this.

 

[maphesto]

Nifty: I understand your point, but you are not describing a totally random game.

If it is a 'lose' spin, then the program can decide what the 'lose' spin will look like.

It is possible for the results to be random, but the display of those results to be manipulated. In this way, the game will still pay what it should.

According to your answer I get the picture of a lot of eye candy when it comes to this machine. I have found one single eye candy in this machine and that is when the third reel corrects itself before the final result is displayed. Just like an old real slot machine does.

I can tell you that your theory probably wouldn't pass those RNG test they have done on these slots. I sure hope not anyway.


My answer when it comes to a totally random game

It all comes to reel layout and their RNG. If they have 50 symbols (even the blank one is a symbol) on all reels you have a total of 50x50x50 combinations. 125000 combinations. If it exist only one white 7 on each reel the chance of hitting that combination is 1/125000.
If it exists 25 blanks on all reels the chance of hitting that combination is 0.5x0.5x0.5 = 0.125 (1/8 or 12,5 % chance)

RNG produces for example 13-33-08 and this is 7 -single bar -blank and this is no win. The payline shows exactly this and above that you see the combination 14-34-09..below the payline you see the combination 12-32-07..

Next spin is 02-22-48 and is then of course 3 blanks in a row and you win 0.50. above and under the payline you see the combinations 01-21-47 and 03-23-49.

This is the exact same as on 5 reel videoslots as Tomb Raider and Thunderstruck as well but there you have numbers like 11-34-38-43-11.

But what is it with these slots that is not totally random then?

The reel layout already has decided what RTP the game is supposed to have.

All slots have a "stabilizer" which is based on passed rtp and betsizes. This can be the last 500 spins or the last 100 spins, we can't know. And Microgaming for sure don't tell us. My own guess is that the stabilizer values the last 50 spins more than the last 500 spins.

Every time a combination is drawn by RNG they pass it on to the stabilizer to see if this one is ok. If the RTP has been 150% the last 100 spins 3 sevens in a row will not pass the stabilizer. A new number is drawn and this one is three blanks in a row and this will pass. Congratulations, you won 0.50 instead of 20 bucks.

If the stabilizer notice a low RTP on the passed games it will on the other hand not approve to many losses.

I have seen it, trust me. That 40 line slot Prime Property actually throwed out money once I saw it. Every other spin was showing 4 scatters and there was Prime Property signs all over the board.

Also remember when Aussiedave won a lot on Break da Bank again 5 months ago, the machine obviously wanted to pay..

To the Tunzamunni slot again, I checked and I have not seen 3 white 7 in a row above or below more than once.
It's only the jackpot figures I have seen almost 10 times.
According to reel strips it has to be easier to get white seven-red seven-blue seven than three white sevens in a row.

 

[hitobito2005]

Maphesto, what you're saying about reel layout is correct for some slots (Thunderstrcuk for example) but as far as I know all the 3-reel slots are "weighted". 5 reel drive is also a weighted slot. This means that certain symbols or blanks on the reels have a greater chance of falling into the payline than others. The game is still random, it's just impossible to calculate the RTP without knowing what the weightings are.

Many blank combinations will have high paying symbols next to them to make it look like a win might be close, but obviously the chance of a big win never changes.

The "stabilizer" stuff you mention is all completely false.

 

[maphesto]

The "stabilizer" stuff you mention is all completely false.

Is it?


About the "weighted" slots, there is a possibility that they have a lot of blanks not showed on reels. That is correct, but the "stabilizer" still is there.

And if they have a weighted slot it still is getting close to a cheating machine..
Then my theory with a stabilizer is a lot more fair.

I think that Microgamings slots are fair and they are not cheating. They are just stabilizing the slots to their estimated RTP.

 

[hitobito2005]

Apart from being completely unneccesary, a slot with a "stabilizer" is open to abuse and would be the death of any casino online. UK fruit machines have this feature and people can learn to beat them because of it despite the average 78% RTP!

It's just completely impossible and unthinkable that this would be the case online. Incidentally the AWP slots on MG simulate this feature (but the mechanics behind it are different).


"weighted" slots are not just a theory. Some slots are weighted. You can tell by determining the reels and putting them into a simulator. If the RTP is wildly away from expectation then the slot is weighted (eg a weighted slot may indicate a RTP of 250% just from the reels alone).

 

[Nifty29]

Apart from being completely unneccesary, a slot with a "stabilizer" is open to abuse and would be the death of any casino online. UK fruit machines have this feature and people can learn to beat them because of it despite the average 78% RTP!

It's just completely impossible and unthinkable that this would be the case online. Incidentally the AWP slots on MG simulate this feature (but the mechanics behind it are different).


"weighted" slots are not just a theory. Some slots are weighted. You can tell by determining the reels and putting them into a simulator. If the RTP is wildly away from expectation then the slot is weighted (eg a weighted slot may indicate a RTP of 250% just from the reels alone).

Yup thats pretty much what I was getting at.

As long as the RTP turns out to be correct, then they can weight them until the cows come home.

The opposite of this is the Real Series RTG slots - called "Real" because the RTP is actually determined by the number of symbols on the reels and is as 'random' as you can get. It is also why you can estimate if that third scatter is going to appear by what symbols go past on the reel, and why the RTP can be reduced on these slots simply by removing or adding certain symbols to the reels (like the old mechanical ones)

 

[maphesto]

Apart from being completely unneccesary

It is not unneccesary, many online casinos are small and can't afford to pay a lot of wins. You can see how Lock have it these days, or NedPlay before 32RED took over their business if we talk about MG.
The stabilizer is definately there to assure the casino their house edge profit.

a slot with a "stabilizer" is open to abuse and would be the death of any casino online.

How do you plan to beat it? You don't know if the machine is paying or not.

Unless you do as I and use slot temp meters.
But the slot temp meter isn't showing that much info. Only when you are supposed to avoid it.

But I am at least trying to avoid the dead machines.

UK fruit machines have this feature and people can learn to beat them because of it despite the average 78% RTP!

And how do they beat it? Are they stupid programmed and they forgot to take betsizes in the equation?

It's just completely impossible and unthinkable that this would be the case online.

Not to me, I can't find any other reason for the machines to act like they are:

* After a huge win the machine is dead.

* When you hit 4 scatters on Loaded the free spins usually pay less than if you hit 3 scatters. Do you know why? 4 scatters pay so much from the beginning.

* If you win a lot on your first free spin you usually hit nothing afterwards.

etc.

"weighted" slots are not just a theory. Some slots are weighted. You can tell by determining the reels and putting them into a simulator. If the RTP is wildly away from expectation then the slot is weighted (eg a weighted slot may indicate a RTP of 250% just from the reels alone).

You definately might be correct here, I haven't counted and calculated these things.

 

[maphesto]

The opposite of this is the Real Series RTG slots - called "Real" because the RTP is actually determined by the number of symbols on the reels and is as 'random' as you can get. It is also why you can estimate if that third scatter is going to appear by what symbols go past on the reel, and why the RTP can be reduced on these slots simply by removing or adding certain symbols to the reels (like the old mechanical ones)

But aren't most MG and Rival video slots the same? The only difference is that RTG have chosen to have the option to remove/add symbols?

Haven't Thunderstruck, Cashapillar, Scary Rich also RTP calculated by the number of symbols of the reels?

 

[Rusty]

C'mon Rusty. You have been around long enough to know that 250 spins means absolutely nothing when it comes to measuring RTP - and also to know that a progressive slot will pay a lower RTP on the reel portion to pay for the progressive jackpot.

The results you posted could be of a random nature - just about any results can be random, as they are just that - random - and future results do not depend on past results.

If you suspect that these games are not random , then why do you continually play them???? ]

Coming back time and time again making these 'casinos cheat' statements while continuing to play reduces the credibility of those statements to zero IMO. I mean, you obviously dont give your own thoughts any credence as you just keep playing, so why should anyone else??

Post something like "I think all casinos cheat and arent random and I am never playing another cent as a result" and you would have my respect for sure.

Reading comprehension.

I have never stated any game does not retain a random element.Never!

Where did I state the slot or Casino cheated?
The results were indeed random (pretty brutally weighted IMO but random) and the outcome was 50% RTP.
That is what I posted.

Making statements that are not relevant to my post reduces your credibility not mine.

Also, just to add, in the posts where I state the games are weighted (rigged is different though there are times I have played slots with the RTP set so low it is tantamount to rigged IMHO) I go into very great deal and give real world results to, in my view, conclusively prove that what I am saying is true.
Perhaps you should do the same to back your definitive statement that future results do not depend on past results. because I have shown that is seems to be far from the case.

Think about it.
B&M casinos that are strictly licensed here have to stipulate the minimum RTP setting of the slot which can be changed.
These slots are Vegas style slots just like there remote brethren.
Think about it, for the love of God think at least think about it!

 

[Rusty]

Just to butt in on the conversation about a "stabilizer" and weighting.

I would argue these are the same thing, the weighting is dynamic.
This is so blindingly obvious to me that I am still surprised other experienced slot players dig their heels in and say it is not so.

The thing is this weighting is entirely legal which is ridiculous.
It is ridiculous that AWP machines (Or those slots that get around this distinction) can still exists in this day and age as there is no reason for them except to ensure revenue stream.

I don't want weighted games and I want the graphic representation of the game to reflect the true odds of my winning with this clearly stated in the paytable.
I do not want this RTP to alterable because I do not want the reel strips or the paytable to be alterable.

What makes me laugh about Nifty is that he had a go at me before when I have been explaining for years exactly what he is suggesting only I extend this to 5 reel slots.
It is illogical to think that weighting would not be used in these slots when it is perfectly legal.

I will say this one last time.
If you seriously think you have the exact same chance of triggering a bonus round every spin and that the exact same chance of that bonus round paying big exists each time it is triggered you are either blind or you haven't played slots much.

Once your eyes are open to this truth it makes the games less fun and sometimes very frustrating to play but as long as you stick to reputable Casinos you can convince yourself it is a fair game if you want to.
The question though should remain, why is the game weighted and what data is the algorithm that controls it calculating?

PS

Near miss programming is illegal in some jurisdictions and I am not sure it exists in most software. RTG may use it but I am not certain.
The reason the 3 reel slots appear to have near miss programming is purely down to the weighting - there are no preset outcomes.
So for example the reel strip may only be 14 symbols long with a bonus giving symbol on the 3rd reel but the probability of each symbol landing on the winline stop position are completely different and not 1/14.
The bonus symbol may have a probability of 1/200 and if it is above a symbol with a probability of 1/10 you will often see it 1 stop position above the winline.

Nifty I have a deep technical knowledge, slot design knowledge (I design my own 5 reel slots complete with 95% RTP, bonus rounds scatters and wilds and multiple lines etc) I have a working knowledge of C++, flash/action script, java script, SQL and database design, HTML, PHP and others.
I have vast experience of playing slots both at B&M and remote casinos. There is my credibility, where is yours?

 

[aceking123]

hi all ,To add my 5th penny guys , ive been playing online for 10 years plus aswell as alot of other members , i would not say that there rigged , but im in no doubt that these online slots ,cards & roulette are weighted , ive seen it many many times to where ive had alot of hits at different casinos of x500+ wins to go onto a different game mainly roulette & get rinsed every single time in fact i could state that never once have i just after i good win on a slots, have i ever hit a £20 or £30 pound straight up number on roulette , just seems to easy that the software knows ive won a large some on a slot then counter acts it by taking it back via roulette ,ive done this so many times ive lost count & now after many years dont tend to do the same thing anymore , i shall also point out that ive tried all ways of stopping this changing my numbers going to red & black everything & anything but still remains the same results, thats how i come to say there weighted in some way or form.

 

[Rusty]

hi all ,To add my 5th penny guys , ive been playing online for 10 years plus aswell as alot of other members , i would not say that there rigged , but im in no doubt that these online slots ,cards & roulette are weighted , ive seen it many many times to where ive had alot of hits at different casinos of x500+ wins to go onto a different game mainly roulette & get rinsed every single time in fact i could state that never once have i just after i good win on a slots, have i ever hit a £20 or £30 pound straight up number on roulette , just seems to easy that the software knows ive won a large some on a slot then counter acts it by taking it back via roulette ,ive done this so many times ive lost count & now after many years dont tend to do the same thing anymore , i shall also point out that ive tried all ways of stopping this changing my numbers going to red & black everything & anything but still remains the same results, thats how i come to say there weighted in some way or form.

I have had very similar experiences using the MG software so one does have to wonder if the RTP is set across the casino all games and how that is applied to individual accounts.
My best ever winning streak on slots (so anomalous as to be close to impossible) was interspersed by my worse ever losing streak on roulette.
I kept swapping between games and I would be hitting jackpots on the slots then go to roulette and go like 30 spins without hitting a number backing 12 numbers, repeatedly!
Just an observation not an accusation. After all, I was winning!

 

[Nifty29]

Nifty I have a deep technical knowledge, slot design knowledge (I design my own 5 reel slots complete with 95% RTP, bonus rounds scatters and wilds and multiple lines etc) I have a working knowledge of C++, flash/action script, java script, SQL and database design, HTML, PHP and others.
I have vast experience of playing slots both at B&M and remote casinos. There is my credibility, where is yours?

Sorry Rusty, but unless you have seen the code or you wrote it, then your theories are as good as mine. I did state earlier that I am not really a techie, so Im not sure what all the chest-beating above is all about I dont see the point in having a 'how high can you pee' match.

My point about credibility has nothing to do with knowledge - they are totally different things. What I said was related to this below:

The results were indeed random (pretty brutally weighted IMO but random) and the outcome was 50% RTP.
That is what I posted.

You didnt actually explain the point of what you posted originally, so you left it to the reader to decide what you were getting at.....and it seemed awfully like whinging that you only got a 50% RTP after 250 spins....implying that there is something wrong with those results, which anyone will tell you is ridiculous as these kinds of numbers can and do occur all the time, and will occur in a totally random game. If you are educated as you indicate, then you will (and I am sure you do) know this.

If your point was something different, then I am happy to listen.

What makes me laugh about Nifty is that he had a go at me before when I have been explaining for years exactly what he is suggesting only I extend this to 5 reel slots.
It is illogical to think that weighting would not be used in these slots when it is perfectly legal.

I agree that the 3 reel slots are most probably weighted, and some 5 reels slots as well come to mention it.

It might be illegal in many jurisdictions, but we both know that online casinos can pretty much do what they like.

Personally, I dont care if they are weighted, as long as the RTP is 'as advertised'.

My question is: If you discovered 100% for sure that your favorite slot was actually weighted, would you stop playing it? Even if you often win??

All I know that, as a player, I either win or lose. Simple. If I feel I am not getting a fair game at any time, I dont go back (and their are a few times Ive done this over the years). If Im happy in the knowledge that I have a reasonable chance of winning, then I am just that - happy.

Ive often asked myself and others : "If you were made privy to the internal functions of all the slots you play and exactly how they generate the RTP etc i.e. everything there is to know, would you still play them anyway?". Most, including me, said Yes. After all, its not like you can do anything about it is there? You cant spin it differently etc.

Anyway, my intention wasnt to get up your nose Rusty. It just bothers me when players complain about bad sessions etc and infer that there is something fishy going on. Have a rant about how bad your luck has been - sure - but you cant seriously go around claiming games arent random using a sample size of 250 spins.

 

[hitobito2005]

And how do they beat it? Are they stupid programmed and they forgot to take betsizes in the equation?

Regarding the beatability of UK fruit machines - maybe vinylweatherman can chip in here because I believe he used to do this. These machines would run in cycles to try and stick near the RTP in the short term and it is possible to tell whether or not it is likely to pay out. There is a lot of rubbish spoken about them on the internet though as you'd expect! Basically any casino game with non random elements can be beaten (another example - a biased roulette wheel), this is why all casino games must be random.

Not to me, I can't find any other reason for the machines to act like they are:

* After a huge win the machine is dead.

* When you hit 4 scatters on Loaded the free spins usually pay less than if you hit 3 scatters. Do you know why? 4 scatters pay so much from the beginning.

* If you win a lot on your first free spin you usually hit nothing afterwards.

etc.

This is all personal experience. I doubt you've played enough spins to make any real judgement. Have you recorded this data or are you just bringing up things from memory? We all have a tendency to remember only the bad things.

If you seriously believe what you're saying, why don't you collect some data and then bring down the industry in flames? You could single handedly destroy Microgaming if you collected proof of your allegations. You'd need quite a lot of spins but the software does have autoplay! They might even index the data for you.

 

[Tengil]

Regarding the beatability of UK fruit machines - maybe vinylweatherman can chip in here because I believe he used to do this. These machines would run in cycles to try and stick near the RTP in the short term and it is possible to tell whether or not it is likely to pay out. There is a lot of rubbish spoken about them on the internet though as you'd expect! Basically any casino game with non random elements can be beaten (another example - a biased roulette wheel), this is why all casino games must be random.



This is all personal experience. I doubt you've played enough spins to make any real judgement. Have you recorded this data or are you just bringing up things from memory? We all have a tendency to remember only the bad things.

If you seriously believe what you're saying, why don't you collect some data and then bring down the industry in flames? You could single handedly destroy Microgaming if you collected proof of your allegations. You'd need quite a lot of spins but the software does have autoplay! They might even index the data for you.

No need for vinylweatherman, Billy Bleach has all the answers. Just hold the bells

 

[maphesto]

This is all personal experience. I doubt you've played enough spins to make any real judgement. Have you recorded this data or are you just bringing up things from memory? We all have a tendency to remember only the bad things.

Before you continue to read you have to know that I am ahead at those 3 softwares I have played the most, Rival, Microgaming and RTG. One reason is that I nowadays really try to avoid the "dead" machines.

The data is recorded, I usually record my play with a screen recorder (cam studio).

About playing enough spins, this is the most common answer/question by those who believe that the outcome of every single spin is totally random.

I will never play enough spins. If I play 30 million spins, some really bright guy think that the sample is too small.

If you seriously believe what you're saying, why don't you collect some data and then bring down the industry in flames? You could single handedly destroy Microgaming if you collected proof of your allegations. You'd need quite a lot of spins but the software does have autoplay! They might even index the data for you.

I don't have to, because I want to be able to win more. I have already in other threads told 4 of a kind that I don't want regulation either.
I really think that I will win less if the games were totally random.

If they are totally random I have no use for my theories about avoiding "dead" machines.

I want the games to act as they do at Microgaming, Rival and RTG.

And to the most important issue, there is almost impossible to prove this anyway. The RNG works perfectly and I can't record and collect data of 40 million spins..

I still don't think that the casino cheats, even if they stabilize their RTP with some help.

 

[Rusty]

Sorry Rusty, but unless you have seen the code or you wrote it, then your theories are as good as mine. I did state earlier that I am not really a techie, so Im not sure what all the chest-beating above is all about I dont see the point in having a 'how high can you pee' match.

My point about credibility has nothing to do with knowledge - they are totally different things. What I said was related to this below:



You didnt actually explain the point of what you posted originally, so you left it to the reader to decide what you were getting at.....and it seemed awfully like whinging that you only got a 50% RTP after 250 spins....implying that there is something wrong with those results, which anyone will tell you is ridiculous as these kinds of numbers can and do occur all the time, and will occur in a totally random game. If you are educated as you indicate, then you will (and I am sure you do) know this.

If your point was something different, then I am happy to listen.



I agree that the 3 reel slots are most probably weighted, and some 5 reels slots as well come to mention it.

It might be illegal in many jurisdictions, but we both know that online casinos can pretty much do what they like.

Personally, I dont care if they are weighted, as long as the RTP is 'as advertised'.

My question is: If you discovered 100% for sure that your favorite slot was actually weighted, would you stop playing it? Even if you often win??

All I know that, as a player, I either win or lose. Simple. If I feel I am not getting a fair game at any time, I dont go back (and their are a few times Ive done this over the years). If Im happy in the knowledge that I have a reasonable chance of winning, then I am just that - happy.

Ive often asked myself and others : "If you were made privy to the internal functions of all the slots you play and exactly how they generate the RTP etc i.e. everything there is to know, would you still play them anyway?". Most, including me, said Yes. After all, its not like you can do anything about it is there? You cant spin it differently etc.

Anyway, my intention wasnt to get up your nose Rusty. It just bothers me when players complain about bad sessions etc and infer that there is something fishy going on. Have a rant about how bad your luck has been - sure - but you cant seriously go around claiming games arent random using a sample size of 250 spins.

If you state incorrectly that I have posted something which I have not and then go on to use this falsehood to question my credibility you should expect a vigorous response.
Of course you got up my nose and of course this was your intention.

The point is that the credibility of a person regarding a certain topic is strongly linked to their knowledge of that topic.
Knowing the mathematics involved and having an understanding of the programming languages used in these slots and websites are pretty much essential if you want your opinion to be informed.

I would not talk about how the weather works and make a forecast without knowing the physics involved and having a knowledge of meteorology and I would consider someone with knowledge of those as a more credible weatherman then someone who had none.

Stating my credentials is not chest beating just as fairly asking yours is not a pissing contest - you were the one who raised the issue of credibility.

Ok that is past, let's move on.

As for the intention of my original post, it was a little tongue in cheek and I thought that sample was pretty funny, hence my please come again comment.
It is not evidence of anything other than 50% RTP playing with $70+ at 60c a spin and busting out after 250 spins.
If I had stated casino x cheats and so does this slot and here is the proof you would have a had a point but making your own assumptions on my meaning and rewriting my post to fit those assumptions then going on to attack me for what I have not stated is not cool.

Now the rest of what you write we are in pretty close agreement on except I would say that virtually all slots are weighted not just some.
Also this is not illegal in any jurisdiction to best of my knowledge as long as they conform to certain standards and levels of RTP.

Knowing this do I still play, yes, just as I used to play AWP slots (also perfectly legal) knowing how they functioned - that does not mean I think they are completely fair though or things can not be improved.

Where you say we can do nothing about it - I disagree, though an argument that continuing to play them does not help the cause of change is a strong one. Still, if I just walked away that would not effect change either.

You state you are happy playing weighted slots as long as they conform to certain standards which is fine but when I first started playing online I thought it would be a liberation from AWP sucktitude - especially since all the noise coming from the industry at that time was that these slots operated without weighting or probability tables.

Why does it matter if you can still win and the RTP is 95% or whatever?
Because it is open to abuse and unlike B&M slots there are no other players to fill the slot while you are not there.
Sure it may take into account other players results but it may not which could mean the height of every win streak must be followed by the depths of the losing streak from hell. That does not seem fair.

Aslo RTP could be altered live rather than having to disable the game and upload a different version with a different natural RTP.
We could debate long hard as to whether the RTP is changed live and debate further about how the RTP is made up and whether that in itself is fair but such debates would not even exist if the software was algorithm free when it comes to how the RTP is arrived at.

I know the win streaks are fun but does it not stick in your throat just a little that what goes up must come down faster than freefall speed?

There are perfectly good reasons that the RTP is determined by other factors and bonus pick rounds are weighted and freespin rounds sent in batches.
Adding multipliers, the ability to change stake and lines increases the variance a great deal as well and software designers and operators want a handle on this but I maintain it is possible to design slots without these hidden number crunchers.
The problem is that while it is very desirable for me and most players it is not desirable for the Casinos so they will never go for it unless the industry is more strongly regulated with, dare I say, a little more technical savvy and desire for the player to receive the fairest game possible rather than just a pay check.

 

[hitobito2005]

Now the rest of what you write we are in pretty close agreement on except I would say that virtually all slots are weighted not just some.

Don't think this is true. As far as I know all of the new MG slots are not weighted. Most of the 5-reel ones aren't.

Some slots have weighted elements such as the jackpot round in Mega Moolah and some prize picking bonus rounds etc.

 

[Rusty]

Duplicate post

 

[Rusty]

Don't think this is true. As far as I know all of the new MG slots are not weighted. Most of the 5-reel ones aren't.

Some slots have weighted elements such as the jackpot round in Mega Moolah and some prize picking bonus rounds etc.

Why do you say the new slots are not weighted? (genuine question)
The new 243 line slots are even more obvious if you ask me - just keep tabs on the scatter symbols.
The last time I played Thunderstruck 2 it was around 1300 spins before I triggered the free spins and 600+ before I got a lightning storm.
Other times when I get the lightning storm frequently I also get the free spins fairly frequently - that is my experience thus far though I have pretty much given up on the game.
That sort of thing suggests to me that these events are linked.

The scatter symbols went through cycles of landing on reels 1&2 or 4&5 before vanishing again for long periods.
In fact I hit the first 2 scatters 4 times in less than 10 spins but then went well over 50 spins without seeing either. Rinse and repeat.

This would be all well and good if it was not the same pattern each time I played it. Also after a decent win I found I was spinning more blank spins than ever - on 243 lines!
I suggest there is very strong evidence for weighting in these slots and all others and usually the best way to find this evidence is to look at low probability event frequency rather than RTP as this requires much smaller sample sizes when checking for anomalies.

I can't prove they are weighted as such but if I can predict an increase or decrease in certain event frequency at certain times with pretty good accuracy.
It is not an exact science because the slots retain a random element throughout it is just the probability of events that alters.
I think this is because the bonus rounds have their own probability of triggering outside of the reel stop probabilities but I can not be certain on that.

Anyone who has an open mind should play a slot where a symbol doubles as the scatter and wild and keep tabs on their hit frequency, especially reels 1 & 2 after losing streaks or winning streaks. Also remember we are talking 3 reel stop positions here (in the window) not one.

People will believe what they want to believe but all I say is check these things for yourself and if you are still not convinced and of a fair mind then we will just have to agree to disagree.

Also you need to consider that I don't stand to gain anything by repeatedly banging this drum, I am not even saying the games are unfair as such - I just know what I know and think things could be done better as well as believing everyone should know how the games operate.
If I thought they were out and out rigged I wouldn't play myself, or would I?
I sure like my slots

 

[hitobito2005]

Rusty, weighted slots don't have changing probabilities. There is no way to tell the difference between weighted and non-weighted slots by just playing them. To the observer they would look exactly the same.

The only way to tell is to find of the reels and put them into a simulator (or calculator) as I said earlier and see what the RTP turns out to be. The simulator assumes a non-weighted slot so if the RTP is clearly wrong, generally over 100%, then it must be weighted.

Why do you say the new slots are not weighted? (genuine question)

I am making an assumption here, but people have determined the reels for several new slots and none of them turned out to be weighted. Not sure about the 243 line ones. But so far i've only seen evidence of the really old ones being weighted (3 reels, and slots like 5 reel drive).

 

[Rusty]

Rusty, weighted slots don't have changing probabilities. There is no way to tell the difference between weighted and non-weighted slots by just playing them. To the observer they would look exactly the same.

The only way to tell is to find of the reels and put them into a simulator (or calculator) as I said earlier and see what the RTP turns out to be. The simulator assumes a non-weighted slot so if the RTP is clearly wrong, generally over 100%, then it must be weighted.



I am making an assumption here, but people have determined the reels for several new slots and none of them turned out to be weighted. Not sure about the 243 line ones. But so far i've only seen evidence of the really old ones being weighted (3 reels, and slots like 5 reel drive).

I'm not being funny but I don't think you fully understand what weighting is and how it works.
MGS were caught out by not having the win probabilities and paytable match on their old 5 reel slots. When this was pointed out they had to admit they were weighted but from then on they have ensured that the win probabilities and paytable match the theoretical RTP which is made up from a complete cycle of every stop position sequence with wins paid as per paytable.

If you think that MGS changed the way their software operated rather than just ensured the correct reel strip and paytables to match the RTP then what can I say?
If you think they would only weight 3 reel slots that are much less volatile than 5 reel bonus slots, what can I say?
If you ignore everything I told you in my last post about how to look for signs of weighting in 5 reel slots, what can I say?
If you don't believe the RTP of these slots can be changed without changing the reel strips or paytable, what can I say?

I'm not going to write another thousand lines or rewrite stuff I have written many times before, often going into great technical detail, in an attempt to convince you of something that I know and you may as well stop trying to convince me of something you think - especially when you have nothing to back it up and it lacks common sense.

 

[hitobito2005]

I'm not being funny but I don't think you fully understand what weighting is and how it works.

A simple weighted slot:

A - 10% weighting
K - 20% weighting
Blank - 70% weighting

A pays 5x bet
K pays 2x bet
Blank pays 0x bet


It's a one reel slot, there is only one symbol for each win but they are weighted so that the jackpot occurs less frequently than blank.

The same slot in un-weighted form:

A
K
K
Blank
Blank
Blank
Blank
Blank
Blank
Blank

Same paytable. The reel is not weighted in this slot (they all have a 1 in 10 chance of hitting) but the end result is the same, a 90% RTP slot.

Extrapolate this to a more complicated 3 or 5 reel slot and there you have it. Weighting is very simple. There is no weird crap going on with changing probabilities, less wins after big features etc. It's impossible to look for "signs of weighting" while playing - that's crazy talk.