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One game that a strategy works, is blackjack. At least in BJ it's still random, but of course you're not going to double down on a hard 20 and give your money away. 
Is online blackjack software RTP based or Random?
- Thread starter winbig
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4 of a kind
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One game that a strategy works, is blackjack. At least in BJ it's still random, but of course you're not going to double down on a hard 20 and give your money away.
Please provide me with confirmed information that any online casino Black-Jack game or any other card game (video poker etc.) is running from a 52 card deck random draw platform and not running off an RTP platform. Direct me to where I could read this as being fact. Also, somebody said so isn't good enough.
Thank you...
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So you're saying that online blackjack is played with decks that are more, or less, than 52 cards? Everything I've ever seen confirms that the cards are dealt with X number of decks, based on an unlimited shoe. A new shoe is "shuffled" after every hand. I think there's a few casinos that don't run those unlimited shoes, but I forget which ones.
Well, here's 32Red's description of various games:
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So basically a publicly traded UK business is going to lie to you? The odds in their casino are no different than they would be at any other offline casino. That's the greatness of running a casino. The advantage is always in the house's favor. Why would they want to risk billions of dollars over running a crooked game when they know that they're always going to win (and make more money over time) by running the fairest game they can?
Seriously, why all the conspiracy theories? Are you still gambling online? If so, then why?
So now I ask you -
Please provide us with confirmed facts that online casinos are NOT playing with a standard 52 card deck, and how these games aren't being played out in the same fashion that you would expect to see at an offline casino.
4 of a kind
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I never said once the games were not played with a 52 card deck. Stop trying to twist this into me being an idiot.
The key words missing from your quotes is RANDOM DRAW.
Based on five card draw poker and a 52 card deck
Based on five card draw poker does not mean random draw.
Do you even understand the difference between random draw and RTP draw?
The key words missing from your quotes is RANDOM DRAW.
Based on five card draw poker and a 52 card deck
Based on five card draw poker does not mean random draw.
Do you even understand the difference between random draw and RTP draw?
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Since I'm apartment bound, maybe I'll just run 1 million hands of BJ on autoplay using basic strategy at a MGS casino and post my findings here. As you know, MGS provides quite a detailed breakdown of %'s in regards to starting hands, # of BJ's, etc.
If the %'s are within 3 SD's of what you would expect from a B&M casino, then I think that's enough evidence in itself.
If the %'s are within 3 SD's of what you would expect from a B&M casino, then I think that's enough evidence in itself.
4 of a kind
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Maybe you missed these interesting articles I posted here a while back.
Do The Casinos Cheat At Video Games
So I had to do my homework. My fellow gaming writers have assumed that because New Jersey is a regulated state, its regulations are the same as Nevada concerning video-poker machines. Had anyone really bothered to talk to the members of the New Jersey Casino Control Commission or ask to see a copy of the regulations? If the anonymous letter writer in Blackjack Forum was right—New Jersey did not have the same rules governing video-poker machines as did Nevada.
I called the New Jersey Casino Control Commission to see if I could ease my fears or fuel my fire. After all, the control commissions of the various gaming jurisdictions set the rules that the casinos must abide by. Supposedly these commissions exist to protect us—the players. I spoke with Tony DiFlorio who told me that while the video-poker machines must conform to the same payback percentage range as any other slot machine, that is 83% to 99% return, "they are considered slot machines" and that there are no separate requirements for them as in Nevada. When I asked him if they must be based on a totally random shuffling of the cards, and that each hand must theoretically appear with its expected frequency, he stated that there were only two criteria for the machine. The first— “that it falls within the payback scheme” (83% to 99%) and the second that "every sequence be in the programming."
"But that means," I said, " that if a natural royal flush is a 40,000 to one shot, the machine could be programmed to pay it once in every 300,000 hands or more?"
"Yes," he said. "The machine has to have the royal flush sequence in the programming just as a slot machine would have to have for example the triple 7's but the frequency is up to the programming."
Two days later I received a set of the regulations from John M. Kovac, Administrative Practice Officer for the New Jersey Casino Control Commission concerning slot machines in New Jersey. No distinctions were made between video-poker and other slots. The information that Mr. DiFlorio had given me checked out. Indeed, the letter writer to Blackjack Forum had been correct. Video-poker machines in Atlantic City are slot machines and the probabilities are not necessarily the same as they would be for similar machines in Nevada. Remember, Nevada is based strictly on the random shuffling of 52 (or 53) cards. The hands will appear in the long run within their expected frequency range. This does not have to be so for New Jersey Casinos. The game will be random, yes, but random the way a slot machine is random—that is, based on a program that dictates the probabilities and not based on the probabilities in a 52 (or 53) card deck.
The bottom line? Here it is. For those of you who can play in Nevada, assuming the problem of like-card discard was just a "blip" or at worst a programming flaw in some machines as Dr. Schneider suggested, all the strategies in this book can be confidently applied because the game is what it appears to be—video poker based on a random shuffle with no variable programming or secondary decisions. The hands will come up with their expected probability in the long run.
Unfortunately, I can't recommend the Atlantic City video-poker games because I can't be confident that the strategies outlined in this book would be the most effective strategies to play on variable programming machines or secondary decision machines—especially for the supposedly better-paying machines. If, for example, the royal flush is a one in 1,000,000 chance instead of a one in 40,000 chance in Atlantic City—a Draw Poker Jacks-or-Better hand such as ten of spades, jack of spades, queen of spades, king of spades and a king of hearts would probably return more by keeping the two kings and discarding the other cards. You might have to play the Atlantic City game based on the "a bird in the hand is worth more then two in the bush" principle. Take your little wins when you get them and be happy. For Atlantic City, the best principles to use would be to choose a video-poker machine as you would choose a slot machine. Use the money management techniques of a slot player because you could be playing a slot machine dressed in video-poker machine's clothing.
But what of other jurisdictions in America? With gambling fever spreading like wild fire throughout the country how can players know what they're playing? They can if they take the time to look over the regulations governing the machine games in the casinos where they wish to play. All regulatory states must explain the criteria of their machines. New Jersey isn't cheating the players (technically)—the rules clearly show what their machines have to be—slot machines returning 83 to 99 percent. The fact that the players and gaming authorities assumed the New Jersey rules were the same as Nevada is their fault.
Some other excerpts from a different article:
Video poker machines use random number generators to determine which cards to deal. This makes the dealing completely random. For this reason, the odds of being dealt a winning hand after the pre-draw are entirely predictable. However, the odds of winning after the discard depend on your discarding strategy.
In Nevada and most other locations in the U.S. where casino gambling is legal, the software used in any video poker or video blackjack game has to be approved by the state’s Gaming Control Board or other government entities. In most states (but not all), the law requires that for video games that represent card games, the cards must be dealt randomly from a full 52-card deck or decks. In these games, the house edge on a machine can be accurately determined by a player simply by looking at the machine’s payout schedule and rules. If the payout schedule and rules would give the house a ½% edge dealing fairly from a full 52-card deck or decks, you know that you will be giving up ½% on every bet you place in this game.
So by crooked, I mean any software in which a game is either not being dealt from a full 52-card deck, or in which the cards are not being dealt randomly. Instead, the games are rigged to pay out at fixed percentages just like slot machines.
The fear of this type of crooked software is what keeps most gamblers from playing at Internet casinos.
In a casino where the software is rigged to give the house a higher edge, the cards may never even out. You may keep busting your stiffs and losing your double downs, or never getting royals or 4 of a kinds or flushes or even pairs of jacks or better, because the software is designed specifically to deal you cards that will make you lose.
Crooked software is perfectly legal in some states and foreign countries.
These types of software are legal to use in Internet casinos as well, unless the country where the casino is physically located or licensed prohibits the use of such software. Nevertheless, while this software may be legal, just as it may be legal to set a slot machine to win whatever percentage the casino wants, most players would not consider these games fair.
Do The Casinos Cheat At Video Games
So I had to do my homework. My fellow gaming writers have assumed that because New Jersey is a regulated state, its regulations are the same as Nevada concerning video-poker machines. Had anyone really bothered to talk to the members of the New Jersey Casino Control Commission or ask to see a copy of the regulations? If the anonymous letter writer in Blackjack Forum was right—New Jersey did not have the same rules governing video-poker machines as did Nevada.
I called the New Jersey Casino Control Commission to see if I could ease my fears or fuel my fire. After all, the control commissions of the various gaming jurisdictions set the rules that the casinos must abide by. Supposedly these commissions exist to protect us—the players. I spoke with Tony DiFlorio who told me that while the video-poker machines must conform to the same payback percentage range as any other slot machine, that is 83% to 99% return, "they are considered slot machines" and that there are no separate requirements for them as in Nevada. When I asked him if they must be based on a totally random shuffling of the cards, and that each hand must theoretically appear with its expected frequency, he stated that there were only two criteria for the machine. The first— “that it falls within the payback scheme” (83% to 99%) and the second that "every sequence be in the programming."
"But that means," I said, " that if a natural royal flush is a 40,000 to one shot, the machine could be programmed to pay it once in every 300,000 hands or more?"
"Yes," he said. "The machine has to have the royal flush sequence in the programming just as a slot machine would have to have for example the triple 7's but the frequency is up to the programming."
Two days later I received a set of the regulations from John M. Kovac, Administrative Practice Officer for the New Jersey Casino Control Commission concerning slot machines in New Jersey. No distinctions were made between video-poker and other slots. The information that Mr. DiFlorio had given me checked out. Indeed, the letter writer to Blackjack Forum had been correct. Video-poker machines in Atlantic City are slot machines and the probabilities are not necessarily the same as they would be for similar machines in Nevada. Remember, Nevada is based strictly on the random shuffling of 52 (or 53) cards. The hands will appear in the long run within their expected frequency range. This does not have to be so for New Jersey Casinos. The game will be random, yes, but random the way a slot machine is random—that is, based on a program that dictates the probabilities and not based on the probabilities in a 52 (or 53) card deck.
The bottom line? Here it is. For those of you who can play in Nevada, assuming the problem of like-card discard was just a "blip" or at worst a programming flaw in some machines as Dr. Schneider suggested, all the strategies in this book can be confidently applied because the game is what it appears to be—video poker based on a random shuffle with no variable programming or secondary decisions. The hands will come up with their expected probability in the long run.
Unfortunately, I can't recommend the Atlantic City video-poker games because I can't be confident that the strategies outlined in this book would be the most effective strategies to play on variable programming machines or secondary decision machines—especially for the supposedly better-paying machines. If, for example, the royal flush is a one in 1,000,000 chance instead of a one in 40,000 chance in Atlantic City—a Draw Poker Jacks-or-Better hand such as ten of spades, jack of spades, queen of spades, king of spades and a king of hearts would probably return more by keeping the two kings and discarding the other cards. You might have to play the Atlantic City game based on the "a bird in the hand is worth more then two in the bush" principle. Take your little wins when you get them and be happy. For Atlantic City, the best principles to use would be to choose a video-poker machine as you would choose a slot machine. Use the money management techniques of a slot player because you could be playing a slot machine dressed in video-poker machine's clothing.
But what of other jurisdictions in America? With gambling fever spreading like wild fire throughout the country how can players know what they're playing? They can if they take the time to look over the regulations governing the machine games in the casinos where they wish to play. All regulatory states must explain the criteria of their machines. New Jersey isn't cheating the players (technically)—the rules clearly show what their machines have to be—slot machines returning 83 to 99 percent. The fact that the players and gaming authorities assumed the New Jersey rules were the same as Nevada is their fault.
Some other excerpts from a different article:
Video poker machines use random number generators to determine which cards to deal. This makes the dealing completely random. For this reason, the odds of being dealt a winning hand after the pre-draw are entirely predictable. However, the odds of winning after the discard depend on your discarding strategy.
In Nevada and most other locations in the U.S. where casino gambling is legal, the software used in any video poker or video blackjack game has to be approved by the state’s Gaming Control Board or other government entities. In most states (but not all), the law requires that for video games that represent card games, the cards must be dealt randomly from a full 52-card deck or decks. In these games, the house edge on a machine can be accurately determined by a player simply by looking at the machine’s payout schedule and rules. If the payout schedule and rules would give the house a ½% edge dealing fairly from a full 52-card deck or decks, you know that you will be giving up ½% on every bet you place in this game.
So by crooked, I mean any software in which a game is either not being dealt from a full 52-card deck, or in which the cards are not being dealt randomly. Instead, the games are rigged to pay out at fixed percentages just like slot machines.
The fear of this type of crooked software is what keeps most gamblers from playing at Internet casinos.
In a casino where the software is rigged to give the house a higher edge, the cards may never even out. You may keep busting your stiffs and losing your double downs, or never getting royals or 4 of a kinds or flushes or even pairs of jacks or better, because the software is designed specifically to deal you cards that will make you lose.
Crooked software is perfectly legal in some states and foreign countries.
These types of software are legal to use in Internet casinos as well, unless the country where the casino is physically located or licensed prohibits the use of such software. Nevertheless, while this software may be legal, just as it may be legal to set a slot machine to win whatever percentage the casino wants, most players would not consider these games fair.
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Yes, I do. At least I believe so.
Like for example, the casino that's on the rogue list for having cheating software?
You know, the one where the dealer hit a hard 17 to make 21 against a player's 20?
Sad thing is, they could have gotten away with it if their programmers had half a brain.
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/start-your-casino-com-evil-software.8193/
https://www.casinomeister.com/online-casinos/reviews/start-your-own/
Like for example, the casino that's on the rogue list for having cheating software?
You know, the one where the dealer hit a hard 17 to make 21 against a player's 20?
Sad thing is, they could have gotten away with it if their programmers had half a brain.
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/start-your-casino-com-evil-software.8193/
https://www.casinomeister.com/online-casinos/reviews/start-your-own/
4 of a kind
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I never said a word about rogue software, nor did I accuse any casino of using rogue software. I just want to know for fact which program card games are being run on. Random Draw, or RTP draw. You still haven't answered my question. I believe so means nothing.
If an RTP program is set at 99% the same that a random draw game would be, (with perfect play) who cares what program there using. The payback will be the same in the long run. The only difference being that random draw will always remain the same, RTP games can be lowered just like slot games. Like the article above states as long as the setting are within regulated range technically no one is cheating..
So I ask you again are online card games random draw or based on the RTP settings?
By the way online roulette, craps, etc. are all also RTP programed games.
And if you really do care I quit online gaming about 2 months ago.
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If every card is being dealt out at the same % online as they would come out offline, then I would think it's definitely a random draw. If they were coming out any different, then I'd be worried.
And yea I know all about the RTP draw...that's why I'll never play ANY electronic BJ machine again, ever. The ones here in PA, and I assume everywhere, payout the same as slot machines.
And yea I know all about the RTP draw...that's why I'll never play ANY electronic BJ machine again, ever. The ones here in PA, and I assume everywhere, payout the same as slot machines.
4 of a kind
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Las Vegas for fact runs video poker games from random card draw.
Atlantic City for fact runs video poker games from RTP draw.
So now I ask you -
Please provide us with confirmed facts: Which system are online casinos running their video poker games from for fact??
Atlantic City for fact runs video poker games from RTP draw.
So now I ask you -
Please provide us with confirmed facts: Which system are online casinos running their video poker games from for fact??
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As I said before, provide us with facts to the opposite.
4 of a kind
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I can't prove anything for fact one way or the other. All I want to know is what system online casinos use?
4 of a kind
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Winbig:
If your even out there looking for confirmation of what platform these card games are based on, (random draw or RTP draw) can you also try and confirm what platform is being used with every other game being offered online excluding slots?
Thanks...
If your even out there looking for confirmation of what platform these card games are based on, (random draw or RTP draw) can you also try and confirm what platform is being used with every other game being offered online excluding slots?
Thanks...
4 of a kind
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Before this thread totally fades away like others similar to it, does anyone out there know the answer to this question:
Do the video poker and BJ games being offered online run off a true random card draw program, or an RTP program which would then classify theses games nothing more then another slot machine?
Thank You
Note: Please refrain from ridiculous answers like WinBig's accusations and assumptions. The question at hand requires a simple answer...
Do the video poker and BJ games being offered online run off a true random card draw program, or an RTP program which would then classify theses games nothing more then another slot machine?
Thank You
Note: Please refrain from ridiculous answers like WinBig's accusations and assumptions. The question at hand requires a simple answer...
Last edited:
4 of a kind
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It has become obvious with all the seasoned advocates and casino reps here I still can't get a confirmed answer.
Bryan, is there anyway you could gather this information with confirmed fact?
Bryan, is there anyway you could gather this information with confirmed fact?
funeral979
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I wish I could give you an answer based on millions of hands of compiled stats. Unfortunately I am not as organized as I used to be. However, I HAVE played millions of hands of online blackjack in the past seven years...and my gut and common sense tells me that it is nothing more than a slot machine with cards instead of reels.
It is painfully obvious that whenever you make larger bets, the software goes into another mode....perhaps taking out x number of face cards. I have brought this up before....and usually get met with the response that, "well, you only have a small sample....you need to play tens of thousands of hands to have something to base this on etc etc etc" Well, I am not going to test out a software placing $50-$100 bets to see if its fair or not. I am not an idiot. I am sure software developers know this, and therefore only put this 'gaff' in when your bet reaches $xx ....so it will not be as obvious.
I mean,how many small samples do you need to gather before you can finally say, yeah something isn't right here????
We have all noticed the short pauses, and then all of a sudden the dealer just goes on a huge winning streak. It is so predictable with Microgaming....everything is going along just fine...then you get that little pause/stutter/whatever you want to call it....and you are dealt a beautiful 11 against a dealer 5 or 6...well you may as well just shut down the software....you will lose that and hand, and the next, and the next....as dealer gets bj,20,bj,20, repeat, repeat, repeat....yep, its thee RTP kicking in...evening things out...
And it is the same across the board....MG, RTG, 3Dice, BetOnSoft, Rival (which steals no matter what you bet)
Of course this is all just my opinion and observation based on 7 years of almost daily play
It is painfully obvious that whenever you make larger bets, the software goes into another mode....perhaps taking out x number of face cards. I have brought this up before....and usually get met with the response that, "well, you only have a small sample....you need to play tens of thousands of hands to have something to base this on etc etc etc" Well, I am not going to test out a software placing $50-$100 bets to see if its fair or not. I am not an idiot. I am sure software developers know this, and therefore only put this 'gaff' in when your bet reaches $xx ....so it will not be as obvious.
I mean,how many small samples do you need to gather before you can finally say, yeah something isn't right here????
We have all noticed the short pauses, and then all of a sudden the dealer just goes on a huge winning streak. It is so predictable with Microgaming....everything is going along just fine...then you get that little pause/stutter/whatever you want to call it....and you are dealt a beautiful 11 against a dealer 5 or 6...well you may as well just shut down the software....you will lose that and hand, and the next, and the next....as dealer gets bj,20,bj,20, repeat, repeat, repeat....yep, its thee RTP kicking in...evening things out...
And it is the same across the board....MG, RTG, 3Dice, BetOnSoft, Rival (which steals no matter what you bet)
Of course this is all just my opinion and observation based on 7 years of almost daily play
4 of a kind
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Of course this is all just my opinion and observation based on 7 years of almost daily play
Yes funeral I've come to the same conclusion. After playing compulsive video poker online for over 7 years and being satisfied with the results (even though a loser overall) regardless what system they were using I felt the results at least simulated the same as random draw. This would include millions and millions of hands of personal experience.
Of course allowing a fair amount of time for negative variance, after three more years of complete abuse, I too am convinced it has to be run on a RTP program and these results which also include millions of hands are from RTP's being lowered and not just a little.
These results from personal experience are the reasons for me quitting online gaming a few months ago. (which I miss dearly)
I still would like to know for fact how the games are run just for personal satisfaction that I just couldn't be that fn unlucky.
I'm also sure no one is going to be able to confirm this for fact, I certainly was unable to retrieve any information whats so ever during my attempts. I'm sure any answer to this question is going to be based on he said, you said, she said.... Or secret inside connections similar to the MASONS that are needed to find out even the most basic questions one might have about online gaming.
You would think that a casino rep would rush to this question and brag about their casino being on a random draw with evidence to back it up. But it is obvious their unable to and elect to remain mum on the subject. As far as I'm concerned that alone is enough evidence for me and you that our assumptions could only be correct.
funeral979
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And just as there are RTP settings for slots, you can pretty much bank on the fact that there are also RTP settings for table games.
In case anyone wonders why I would still play online blackjack for 7 years if I believe they cheat.... well even a cheat will let you win every so often. I expect to lose a good amount of time, but I expect to lose within the confines of the mathematics of the game. Not when the software 'decides' if its time for me to win or lose.
In case anyone wonders why I would still play online blackjack for 7 years if I believe they cheat.... well even a cheat will let you win every so often. I expect to lose a good amount of time, but I expect to lose within the confines of the mathematics of the game. Not when the software 'decides' if its time for me to win or lose.
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I don't know about video games but blackjack seems suspect to be RTP at more online casinos lately, in my opinion. I play or wager a certain way and the casino adjusts to it. The blackjack game is already in the casino's advantage but they go the extra step to do some artificial intelligence work in or with the RNG. I don't really know this as a fact but I've seen strange stuff over the years, especially lately. I'm certain such things are classified above top secret with the software providers and casino owners.
I guess somebody (not me!) would just have to open an online casino with one of the major software providers and tell us it's secrets, basically sacrificing his stake in it.
funeral979
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So true!
You are not only playing against the cards, but against the AI.
As the casino adjusts to my style, I have tried to counter by readjusting my playing style. Its like you are playing cat and mouse with the software, not blackjack.
I am about ready to give up online gambling myself, but like 4OAK, I want the satisfaction of knowing what it REALLY is that I have been up against.
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And whenever I mention about having an independent 3rd party do the card drawing, I always encounter dead silence. With land casinos you can see the cards in a transparent shoe- not so with online casinos.
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regarding to my own play at online casinos im in no doubt that cards is in fact a slot machine powered game , as you guys have already pointed out it seems so funny that when you start to make larger stakes all of a sudden it switches play for the worst , ive seen on many occasions this shift of good play to just down to good old right robbery , its purely funny that i sometimes can tell from the cards displayed that im going to lose no matter what i do regarding to take a card or not , how many people in here get that feeling ? , example like if you have 20 & the dealer has a five or something you know one way or another that those cards are going to ammount to 21 ive seen this time & time again , im not whining about it but common there has to be a truth in this somewhere, if this was pure random & not rng this wouldnt happen all the time , yes im stating the cards at low levels play far better than £25+ stake , well if its random where the hell is my 9 winning hands in a row it just never happens at higher stakes to me , yet it happens to the dealer too many times ,just my thoughts i dont play cards to much since ive been ripped that many times i may aswell just chucked it in the bin ,the one place i do play cards is at 3 dice ,but today after a cracking run of low stakes & good wins i upped the stakes & bang it wasnt so good , but there shall be another day to give it a bash at higher stakes, for me micro gaming & rtg are far worst than others , they just seem to know when to switch .
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Oh, yes! I've learned to adjust to THEIR adjustments and I've done very well at a number of casinos (not just the Heroes one.) But lately, since November '09, I have not been able to win at ANY online casino. It doesn't matter whether it's Microgaming, RTG, Vegas Technology, etc., I've been getting the same old **** at all of them! I've even begun to wonder if Quacktender is somehow sharing across software platforms how to beat me to those I deposit with! There used to be lag time between my adjustments and their adjustments, say 10-15 sessions but now its nearly immediate. This leads me to believe the software or programmers just gave up on trying to beat me but just program the software to force losses when certain criteria (such as bet size or profit in past 5 hands for example) are tripped. Basically what you are saying too.
I actually didn't play blackjack for the past four months but recent play still proves out the above. I think only regulation would solve the problem unless software inspectors are paid to look the other way. Otherwise, I'll start making trips to land casinos.
4 of a kind
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Random draw games would always balance out to the expected odds.
Westland Bowl's Quote here:
"I've even begun to wonder if Quacktender is somehow sharing across software platforms how to beat me"
None of this would be necessary since lowered RTP's are all that's needed. There is no way online video poker or BJ with perfect play is playing 98% to 99% for years now.
I'm confident this is a closed case for serious and educated players of these games. These games are run off RTP platforms with settings being constantly lowered attempting to stay in stride with the economy.
Over the last few years I'm certain online casinos lost most of their serious gamblers and certainly won't retain any new ones for any period of time. They pretty much reduced themselves to bonus tactics to recruit new and adolescent players.
Westland Bowl's Quote here:
"I've even begun to wonder if Quacktender is somehow sharing across software platforms how to beat me"
None of this would be necessary since lowered RTP's are all that's needed. There is no way online video poker or BJ with perfect play is playing 98% to 99% for years now.
I'm confident this is a closed case for serious and educated players of these games. These games are run off RTP platforms with settings being constantly lowered attempting to stay in stride with the economy.
Over the last few years I'm certain online casinos lost most of their serious gamblers and certainly won't retain any new ones for any period of time. They pretty much reduced themselves to bonus tactics to recruit new and adolescent players.
funeral979
Dormant account
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2008
- Location
- Texas
Well this is timely! As this thread was unfolding today I started playing on a free $100 bonus from Bella Vegas. 15 minutes in I got 4 aces playing double bonus poker for a cool $200. Here you can see how their random blackjack can easily take out a $400+ balance. No wins over $40....and an abnormal amount of pushes if you ask me.
funeral979
Dormant account
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2008
- Location
- Texas
Incidentally, 3 of the last 6 losing hands looked almost exacty like this. Look familiar? Of course I could show you hundreds of results just like this....
funeral979
Dormant account
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2008
- Location
- Texas
Not cherry picking results here....last session at CW. Why cant I ever WIN with decent size wagers??
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2008
- Location
- uk
Easy because your bet is $20 dollars plus .i asked titan casino rtg casino for my logs last year you would not believe what you was seeing regarding there max $25 bet unreal outcomes on cards but its fair honest
It is what it is!
I came to the realization that something was not quite right with Online Blackjack when I gained the ability to predict the next card out of the deck with surprising accuracy...
It became so rigged it was not even funny.
First Digital Solutions - NEVER play any casino that uses this software...NEVER EVER....use it online for the sportbook.
Then RTG
What a joke RTG is....slightly better then DGS but still RIGGED
RTG is without a doubt a set RTP game...
then 3dice..
Now 3dice is interesting since I actually have had a few runs on the blackjack and I can not predict the cards with such accuracy....but....I still believe a RTP.
then Rival.
Rival has to have one of the worst blackjack games I have ever ever seen on any platform, the RTP I believe is set lower then the slots.
It smacks of greed when a game the casinos will win at anyways has to be set on a RTP instead of a random draw. Don't call it Blackjack call it Slotjack and be honest about it...
If i want to play blackjack nowadays I take $100 to my local B&M and can last for hours instead of minutes at a online casino.
It is funny now looking back how I considered myself smart for only playing blackjack online and not the slots because I wanted a better "return"...well jokes on me since I was playing a slot in disguise.
3 years later and probably 50-60k blown I will never play another hand of online blackjack until the US government runs a casino with fair software.
I came to the realization that something was not quite right with Online Blackjack when I gained the ability to predict the next card out of the deck with surprising accuracy...
It became so rigged it was not even funny.
First Digital Solutions - NEVER play any casino that uses this software...NEVER EVER....use it online for the sportbook.
Then RTG
What a joke RTG is....slightly better then DGS but still RIGGED
RTG is without a doubt a set RTP game...
then 3dice..
Now 3dice is interesting since I actually have had a few runs on the blackjack and I can not predict the cards with such accuracy....but....I still believe a RTP.
then Rival.
Rival has to have one of the worst blackjack games I have ever ever seen on any platform, the RTP I believe is set lower then the slots.
It smacks of greed when a game the casinos will win at anyways has to be set on a RTP instead of a random draw. Don't call it Blackjack call it Slotjack and be honest about it...
If i want to play blackjack nowadays I take $100 to my local B&M and can last for hours instead of minutes at a online casino.
It is funny now looking back how I considered myself smart for only playing blackjack online and not the slots because I wanted a better "return"...well jokes on me since I was playing a slot in disguise.
3 years later and probably 50-60k blown I will never play another hand of online blackjack until the US government runs a casino with fair software.
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2004
- Location
- Up$hitCreek
I know I've said it before but... hubby played BJ -- a LOT of BJ -- back when we had the chance to go to B&M casinos. and he's good. He knows the game, he can count cards when he feels like messing with it, and he's very familiar with losing streaks as well as winning streaks, and even those occasional weird lucky breaks for the house/dealer or for the player. He dipped (VERY briefly) into online BJ. I played at a lot of online casinos and would sometimes let him play the BJ when I'd have a good run on slots and get the balance up. Tried various softwares.
After that, he won't touch online BJ with a 10 foot barge pole.
Is it 'rigged'? I dunno. After a million hands the numbers may all be as they should be. But, in my experience, online BJ just plays weird. It doesn't 'feel right' if anyone knows what I mean. It's just not like playing with real cards. So I can't stand to play it either. I know... nothing scientific or math based in those opinions.
After that, he won't touch online BJ with a 10 foot barge pole.
Is it 'rigged'? I dunno. After a million hands the numbers may all be as they should be. But, in my experience, online BJ just plays weird. It doesn't 'feel right' if anyone knows what I mean. It's just not like playing with real cards. So I can't stand to play it either. I know... nothing scientific or math based in those opinions.
The game acts in a rigged way if you study it long enough...I have studied thousands of my blackjack sessions over the years and a few key things keep popping out
1. When the casino is in the "player win" mode you are able to hit a 20 9 times out of 10 and hit the ace....yes of course sometimes you bust but you can sit back and laugh as that Ace keeps popping out.
2. You will go down in a waterfall type pattern.. you will start flat then all the sudden woosh down in a flurry of losses(10-15 dealer wins to 1-2 player) then it will start to chop right as your are at the bottom of your bankroll, any recovery you make will never put you back to break even, often if you manage to recover enough you go over the waterfall again.
3. It is a waste of time getting angry at how many of your 10's and 11's magically fail to hit the 10 on the double but the dealer can do it at least 7 out of 10 times.
4. Keep a count of the blackjacks dealt to you and the dealer. You can often tell what way the trend will go by keeping track of who is getting the most blackjacks, oh and the dealer can get 3-4 blackjacks almost back to back on a regular basis but you are lucky to get 2 in a row a session...
5. The Magic dealer often will pull 7-8-9 cards out..all the small ones of course before busting, while you are here busting on 12 6 out of 10 times.
6. Rival casinos IMO offer the worst blackjack game I've ever seen...it is not a random draw, it is a set RTP game....just like ANY other software provider...but Rival goes one step further and sets the RTP to be below the slot machines IMO.....
7. And you know what? If the blackjack is rigged how about the roulette,craps,sicbo,baccarat,red dog,ect....? Are they all magically fair versions of their B&M counterparts and blackjack is the only one set to the RTP, don't kid yourselves they are all set to an RTP every game is the same thing as a slot machine, it baffles me why the casinos are so keen on this "bonus" restrictions on the table games because they are no different then slot machines...IMO the "bonus" restrictions are only there to provide the illusion that the games actually resemble the real thing...they DON'T
I've never played real money Microgaming blackjack so I can not speak if it set to a RTP or a random draw..
1. When the casino is in the "player win" mode you are able to hit a 20 9 times out of 10 and hit the ace....yes of course sometimes you bust but you can sit back and laugh as that Ace keeps popping out.
2. You will go down in a waterfall type pattern.. you will start flat then all the sudden woosh down in a flurry of losses(10-15 dealer wins to 1-2 player) then it will start to chop right as your are at the bottom of your bankroll, any recovery you make will never put you back to break even, often if you manage to recover enough you go over the waterfall again.
3. It is a waste of time getting angry at how many of your 10's and 11's magically fail to hit the 10 on the double but the dealer can do it at least 7 out of 10 times.
4. Keep a count of the blackjacks dealt to you and the dealer. You can often tell what way the trend will go by keeping track of who is getting the most blackjacks, oh and the dealer can get 3-4 blackjacks almost back to back on a regular basis but you are lucky to get 2 in a row a session...
5. The Magic dealer often will pull 7-8-9 cards out..all the small ones of course before busting, while you are here busting on 12 6 out of 10 times.
6. Rival casinos IMO offer the worst blackjack game I've ever seen...it is not a random draw, it is a set RTP game....just like ANY other software provider...but Rival goes one step further and sets the RTP to be below the slot machines IMO.....
7. And you know what? If the blackjack is rigged how about the roulette,craps,sicbo,baccarat,red dog,ect....? Are they all magically fair versions of their B&M counterparts and blackjack is the only one set to the RTP, don't kid yourselves they are all set to an RTP every game is the same thing as a slot machine, it baffles me why the casinos are so keen on this "bonus" restrictions on the table games because they are no different then slot machines...IMO the "bonus" restrictions are only there to provide the illusion that the games actually resemble the real thing...they DON'T
I've never played real money Microgaming blackjack so I can not speak if it set to a RTP or a random draw..
funeral979
Dormant account
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2008
- Location
- Texas
Im glad someone else sees what I see with Rival blackjack. It is outright theft.
I have lost somewhere in the neighborhood of 95 out of my last 130 hands. It is a complete joke.
With Rival you can be sure that:
-You will never win more than 4 hands in a row, EVER.
-Dealer will get 20,21,or BJ about every other hand.
-You will lose about 2 out of every 3 hands you double.
-Dealer will get 2 BJs for every one you get, and thats on a good day
-RTP for their BJ game is probably set lower than their slots.
Where is the regulation?????????
I have lost somewhere in the neighborhood of 95 out of my last 130 hands. It is a complete joke.
With Rival you can be sure that:
-You will never win more than 4 hands in a row, EVER.
-Dealer will get 20,21,or BJ about every other hand.
-You will lose about 2 out of every 3 hands you double.
-Dealer will get 2 BJs for every one you get, and thats on a good day
-RTP for their BJ game is probably set lower than their slots.
Where is the regulation?????????
balcjkcak
Newbie member
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2009
- Location
- Switzerland
Having started playing online blackjack about 18 months ago (200000+ hands, 70% MGS, 20% RTG, 10% Playtech), I'm now seriously considering quitting because I'm absolutely convinced, that it is not a 100% random draw game. Until around November 2009 I was quite convinced, that MGS is more or less random draw, while I suspected RTG from the beginning of being RTP draw (my Playtech sample is too small to justify). But from November 2009 till February 2010 successively all MGS casinos I played showed more and more RTP draw behaviour, so I don't think that today exists any more a random draw online blackjack game.
My assumption is, that all of these games have a "random draw" mode and a "RTP mode" and that in earlier versions games changed between these modes according to a fixed pattern, probably hardcoded or through a parameter set by the software provider. Todays versions obviously have an adaptive way to change between these modes, depending on the players betting strategy and probably also on external settings defined by the casino or the software provider.
So, as a player, you can see quite long phases of perfect random blackjack, but then... all of a sudden it switches to RTP mode and you don't think anymore that this game has to do anything with blackjack.
One can of course suspect many ways, how this behaviour might be implemented in software. But this doesn't matter at all. When playing, you simply "feel" when it is in random draw mode and when it is in RTP mode... and recently settings obviously have been changed anywhere in a way that the RTP phases simply occur so often and with such low RTP that it isn't tolerable any more.
So, that's just my personal impression... I'm not trying to proof it (also I did a lot of statistics) and I don't want to accuse anybody for cheating: Just because there is no cheating... online blackjack simply ist a slot game and not a card game.
I totally agree with the many posters here who simply want the casinos to make a clear statement on this: Why can't they simply state whether its random draw, RTP draw or some mixture of both? This would immediately end this kind of discussions...
My assumption is, that all of these games have a "random draw" mode and a "RTP mode" and that in earlier versions games changed between these modes according to a fixed pattern, probably hardcoded or through a parameter set by the software provider. Todays versions obviously have an adaptive way to change between these modes, depending on the players betting strategy and probably also on external settings defined by the casino or the software provider.
So, as a player, you can see quite long phases of perfect random blackjack, but then... all of a sudden it switches to RTP mode and you don't think anymore that this game has to do anything with blackjack.
One can of course suspect many ways, how this behaviour might be implemented in software. But this doesn't matter at all. When playing, you simply "feel" when it is in random draw mode and when it is in RTP mode... and recently settings obviously have been changed anywhere in a way that the RTP phases simply occur so often and with such low RTP that it isn't tolerable any more.
So, that's just my personal impression... I'm not trying to proof it (also I did a lot of statistics) and I don't want to accuse anybody for cheating: Just because there is no cheating... online blackjack simply ist a slot game and not a card game.
I totally agree with the many posters here who simply want the casinos to make a clear statement on this: Why can't they simply state whether its random draw, RTP draw or some mixture of both? This would immediately end this kind of discussions...
4 of a kind
Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2009
- Location
- New York
Below is a post I made at another gaming forum where I tried explaining why I felt I was qualified to conclude online video poker without doubt is being run off an RTP program...
First of all as I’ve mentioned in many threads I have never had a problem with any online casino. I’ve always been paid when cashing out and always was treated like royalty with comps even when I played at rogue casinos. (of course unknown to me at the time)
Prior to the UIGEA there were plenty of software platforms available for US players. I played predominantly at only two casinos with a third on occasional visits only. Soon after the UIGEA I began playing only at two casinos and both were RTG casinos. Although I visited many different casinos with different platforms during this time, I always liked the speed and play at RTG and essentially made two of them my favorites. Once again these decisions were solely based on the video poker action.
I play 90% video poker and only10% on other games including slots. So my experiences and opinions are truly only based on video poker results. As most should realize by now all table games and video poker games at online casinos are also programmed the same way a slot machine is and payouts are ultimately determined by the RTP settings.
Considering I mastered and am able to play video poker at 100% effectiveness, I believe I’m able to gain a percentage point or two when compared to average players. Unlike a slot machine, players making bad decisions on video poker can and will ultimately alter their sessions for the worse regardless what the RTP is set at.
So how do I come to the conclusion that RTP’s have been lowered to the point where I no longer believe it’s worth the cost of entertainment?
Let’s first clarify what I consider a fair assessment being able to make such accusations of RTP’s being lowered at the present to non playable settings. First it would take millions of hands and a very large bankroll. Both of which I assure you I have. I never once spoke on any forum about the actual amount of money I ever won and or lost. Any numbers I spoke on forums were always inflated for the sake of privacy. I’ve learned throughout my life to never gloat about my fortunate circumstances since personal experiences have proven only to draw envious foes waiting and hoping for the opportunity to kick you if you fall. But to help with understanding my conclusion I also want to share some of my personal views.
Why I’m mentioning all this is simply because I don’t believe you even have a fair shot at a video poker session without a minimum starting bankroll of 2 to 3k. Whatever the amount of play time each session was able to buy either winning or losing was based on how many four of kind hands I was able to hit. Hence my forum name - (4 of a kind.) With most of the video poker games I play a four of a kind hit on one hand can be worth anywhere from 1250.00 to 2.000.00 dollars, with a power 4 of a kind being worth 4k to 10k. Whenever you catch one of these or two or more in a multi-hand game your in instant good shape with guaranteed play time. When hitting a royal flush of course that would automatically guarantee a winning session. I’ve been up over 20k several times without hitting a royal and lost it all back. But whenever I hit the Royal I always felt mentally I couldn’t do much better then that and had to make sure it was a winning session. But all other winning and losing sessions and the length of play time would be based (in 98% of the sessions) on how many 4 of a Kind’s I hit.
Several times every year since gambling online I would always have compulsive degenerate sessions that would last for weeks on end all on the house with one deposit. Over the last two years I may have had 5 or 6 sessions that lasted for only a day or two.
I started to notice a change three years ago about one year after the UIGEA was passed. I treated the first six months of 2008 as nothing more then expected and nothing I hadn’t experienced in the past with bad sessions. But by years end I was convinced already that something was no longer right. After a few months of 2009 being the same if not worse, I started looking around then found and joined casinomeister. Already playing at one of the accredited casinos listed there, I quit the other one I was playing and tried several other accredited casinos there but in a small way. I even took several bonuses and tried the ridicules play through program. That didn’t work out to well either.
After compulsively chasing and trying to reduce my losses in 2008 (making matters worse) in 2009 I smartly reduced my sessions through out the year. Although I reduced the sessions I didn’t reduce starting bankroll. Hitting cheap 4 of a kinds became the big hand. Power 4 of a kinds are non existent and became more evasive then royals. I deposited and went through thousands and thousands of dollars before hitting a single 4 of a Kind hit. After two years of this scenario repeating itself time and time and time and time again, and again, and again, I was certain without a doubt things for sure have changed.
Throughout my decade of playing the same consistent times, amounts, games, and techniques I know I’m qualified to make these accusations of lowered RTP’s.
Without hitting a life changing win which could never be achieved playing video poker, it should be obvious that players like myself consider winning sessions just more ammo for more play time. The ultimate and inevitable long term outcome is a price we are able and willing to pay to feed our sickness for the thrill. But, even that price has a limitation.
In addition after joining casinomiester I started to constantly read about all the other players and their rogue experiences. Between reading all this shocking information combined with my personal RTP experiences is when I went on this regulation crusade. After endless hours of research and learning in a unique way online casinos, money processors, software providers, are all in collusion and are issued a license to operate their business however they damn well please even if that includes stealing with no obvious consequences.
If the RTP’s have been lowered I want to know up front what they are so I could make an educated decision. Don’t try and tell me I had over 2 years of consistent bad session after bad session with the amounts I willingly burned, or haven’t experienced enough hands to know better. Save that shit for someone else.
I pulled the plug till convincing evidence can be proven otherwise. I’m already stepping up my visits to land casinos, and after getting off my fat ass I’m realizing even more all the other gratuities that enhance pissing your money away gambling which are all missing from online.
Besides based on everything I'm reading online casinos evolved into a bonus hunting paradise.
Oh yea, when it comes to cashing out at land casinos the whole process to actually having cash in hand is about 5 minutes.
First of all as I’ve mentioned in many threads I have never had a problem with any online casino. I’ve always been paid when cashing out and always was treated like royalty with comps even when I played at rogue casinos. (of course unknown to me at the time)
Prior to the UIGEA there were plenty of software platforms available for US players. I played predominantly at only two casinos with a third on occasional visits only. Soon after the UIGEA I began playing only at two casinos and both were RTG casinos. Although I visited many different casinos with different platforms during this time, I always liked the speed and play at RTG and essentially made two of them my favorites. Once again these decisions were solely based on the video poker action.
I play 90% video poker and only10% on other games including slots. So my experiences and opinions are truly only based on video poker results. As most should realize by now all table games and video poker games at online casinos are also programmed the same way a slot machine is and payouts are ultimately determined by the RTP settings.
Considering I mastered and am able to play video poker at 100% effectiveness, I believe I’m able to gain a percentage point or two when compared to average players. Unlike a slot machine, players making bad decisions on video poker can and will ultimately alter their sessions for the worse regardless what the RTP is set at.
So how do I come to the conclusion that RTP’s have been lowered to the point where I no longer believe it’s worth the cost of entertainment?
Let’s first clarify what I consider a fair assessment being able to make such accusations of RTP’s being lowered at the present to non playable settings. First it would take millions of hands and a very large bankroll. Both of which I assure you I have. I never once spoke on any forum about the actual amount of money I ever won and or lost. Any numbers I spoke on forums were always inflated for the sake of privacy. I’ve learned throughout my life to never gloat about my fortunate circumstances since personal experiences have proven only to draw envious foes waiting and hoping for the opportunity to kick you if you fall. But to help with understanding my conclusion I also want to share some of my personal views.
Why I’m mentioning all this is simply because I don’t believe you even have a fair shot at a video poker session without a minimum starting bankroll of 2 to 3k. Whatever the amount of play time each session was able to buy either winning or losing was based on how many four of kind hands I was able to hit. Hence my forum name - (4 of a kind.) With most of the video poker games I play a four of a kind hit on one hand can be worth anywhere from 1250.00 to 2.000.00 dollars, with a power 4 of a kind being worth 4k to 10k. Whenever you catch one of these or two or more in a multi-hand game your in instant good shape with guaranteed play time. When hitting a royal flush of course that would automatically guarantee a winning session. I’ve been up over 20k several times without hitting a royal and lost it all back. But whenever I hit the Royal I always felt mentally I couldn’t do much better then that and had to make sure it was a winning session. But all other winning and losing sessions and the length of play time would be based (in 98% of the sessions) on how many 4 of a Kind’s I hit.
Several times every year since gambling online I would always have compulsive degenerate sessions that would last for weeks on end all on the house with one deposit. Over the last two years I may have had 5 or 6 sessions that lasted for only a day or two.
I started to notice a change three years ago about one year after the UIGEA was passed. I treated the first six months of 2008 as nothing more then expected and nothing I hadn’t experienced in the past with bad sessions. But by years end I was convinced already that something was no longer right. After a few months of 2009 being the same if not worse, I started looking around then found and joined casinomeister. Already playing at one of the accredited casinos listed there, I quit the other one I was playing and tried several other accredited casinos there but in a small way. I even took several bonuses and tried the ridicules play through program. That didn’t work out to well either.
After compulsively chasing and trying to reduce my losses in 2008 (making matters worse) in 2009 I smartly reduced my sessions through out the year. Although I reduced the sessions I didn’t reduce starting bankroll. Hitting cheap 4 of a kinds became the big hand. Power 4 of a kinds are non existent and became more evasive then royals. I deposited and went through thousands and thousands of dollars before hitting a single 4 of a Kind hit. After two years of this scenario repeating itself time and time and time and time again, and again, and again, I was certain without a doubt things for sure have changed.
Throughout my decade of playing the same consistent times, amounts, games, and techniques I know I’m qualified to make these accusations of lowered RTP’s.
Without hitting a life changing win which could never be achieved playing video poker, it should be obvious that players like myself consider winning sessions just more ammo for more play time. The ultimate and inevitable long term outcome is a price we are able and willing to pay to feed our sickness for the thrill. But, even that price has a limitation.
In addition after joining casinomiester I started to constantly read about all the other players and their rogue experiences. Between reading all this shocking information combined with my personal RTP experiences is when I went on this regulation crusade. After endless hours of research and learning in a unique way online casinos, money processors, software providers, are all in collusion and are issued a license to operate their business however they damn well please even if that includes stealing with no obvious consequences.
If the RTP’s have been lowered I want to know up front what they are so I could make an educated decision. Don’t try and tell me I had over 2 years of consistent bad session after bad session with the amounts I willingly burned, or haven’t experienced enough hands to know better. Save that shit for someone else.
I pulled the plug till convincing evidence can be proven otherwise. I’m already stepping up my visits to land casinos, and after getting off my fat ass I’m realizing even more all the other gratuities that enhance pissing your money away gambling which are all missing from online.
Besides based on everything I'm reading online casinos evolved into a bonus hunting paradise.
Oh yea, when it comes to cashing out at land casinos the whole process to actually having cash in hand is about 5 minutes.
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2005
- Location
- America
After experiencing suspicious losing double-downs on my higher bets at 7 Sultans (before the Microgaming exit), I started tracking the blackjacks, double-downs, and splits in my sessions. Blackjacks should be about evenly split between dealer and player; you should win about 55% of your double-downs and half of your splits. If a casino is decent, then any big deviations from the norms will eventually snap back to the norms. I can use this to my advantage.
I think a selling point the casino software providers (Microgaming, RTG, Playtech, etc.) use is a GUARANTEED daily return on investment to potential casino owners. It's easier to guarantee a set return on investment in slots but not so for "luck of the draw (roll or dice or spin)" type of games such as blackjack, craps, roulette, etc. These are supposed to be based strictly on random number generators and nothing else. At least that is what the online casinos assure players is the case. To state that there is a set return to player for these type of games would cause most players to stay away.
This is what I experienced at 7 Sultans throughout the whole 2,000 hands I played there.
I noticed the same thing around November of last year with Microgaming. And the behavior continues with the current software provider with the de-Microgamed USA casinos.
I agree with you 100%.
For me personally, I'd stay away from any casino that doesn't use random number generators 100% of the time as it should. Casino games are hard enough just with the rules as it is.
Yes, talking about how much I won or make just invites "friends" who just want to sabotage me. My brother is good at spotting valuable antiques but millionaire owners of auction places try to sabotage him through shillers or just plain keeping the good stuff out of the auctions. His worst enemies are millionaire who are just frickin' jealous and vindictive. My brother has learned to keep his mouth shut.
Outside of the inconvenience of having to travel to the casino, land casinos are looking better and better if we can't trust the integrity of online casinos.
4 of a kind
Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2009
- Location
- New York
I've only been around here for a little over a year. From all the posts I ever read from Casino Reps, are usually related to bonuses and justifying their related rogue issues, discussions on the basic mathematics of games, correcting or justifying assorted rogue tactics like T&C's, explaining the excuses for delayed payments, thanking the occasional satisfied poster for the free spam, promoting promotions, explaining away bad luck sessions, and the like.
Yet, when it comes to asking any question even the most basic like this thread is seeking about Random or RTP draw, which by the way should be information every player should openly have access to before risking a single penny, so at least they could apply the right strategy to minimize their already preset long term guaranteed loses; you can't get a single post.
Many of them have read this thread and remain in hiding. Instead they rely on waiting for the gun-ho posters and protectors to discredit our assumptions, and charge our findings with conspiracy theory's.
We're not asking questions here about how much money their making or any personal inner operations. These are need to know basic ground rules that should be easily obtainable from any casino offering a fair game. Land or Online...
Without wanting to willingly offer this information, they are actually denying fair play and this should at least leave the educated gambler being able to make an educated assumption.
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2004
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario - Canada
As much as it pains me to say it....I could have written that above statement myself. I have never been one to think or say, that any online game is "rigged", and I'm not saying rigged now....but the predicting thing when it comes to BJ? Absolutely. Almost without fail, if I had 20, the dealer is going to pull whatever card or cards they need to beat me, out of the deck. If he has 17, I KNOW that a 4 is coming, I'll even say it out loud sometimes while playing, lol.
Is it 'rigged'? I dunno. After a million hands the numbers may all be as they should be. But, in my experience, online BJ just plays weird. It doesn't 'feel right' if anyone knows what I mean. It's just not like playing with real cards. So I can't stand to play it either. I know... nothing scientific or math based in those opinions.
This is EXACTLY how I feel about online BJ Mousey. Nothing scientific, no number crunching....just the fact that it in no way feels anything like playing true BJ with a deck of cards. It feels like a slot machine....where once in a blue moon I win....but the majority of the time I lose. Which is fine with a slot, the way it is supposed to be IMO. But not with BJ...it should be more balanced. I've seen me lose 10 hands in a row numerous times, but I don't think I have ever won more than 5 in a row, EVER.
Again, no stats, no numbers....just the feeling that I'm not really playing cards. And I'm far from an expert....but I have played enough live BJ to know the difference (I think, lol).
As far as slot play, as I've stated before..it all feels the same to me today, as it did ten years ago. Good sessions and bad, nothing different.
My solution? I don't play cards online, not for real money. And neither should anyone else, if it feels "off" to them.
EDIT: 4oak, if you want Bryan to try and get you an answer to your question, you're probably going to have to send him a PM and either ask him directly to speak with the software providers, or ask him to scan this thread. He doesn't read all the threads on the forum, and if he thinks it's just another thread with cries of "rigged software".....chances are he may not bother with this one. Just my thoughts.
I agree with those whole page.
No data, but years of playing BJ at casinos, you can predict when the dealer will pull a 6 when he is showing a 15 to beat your 20.
Rival is the worst of them all, I only had to play at one rival casino to conclude that, and never went back.
No data, but years of playing BJ at casinos, you can predict when the dealer will pull a 6 when he is showing a 15 to beat your 20.
Rival is the worst of them all, I only had to play at one rival casino to conclude that, and never went back.
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Not saying one way or the other, but hell, I can predict cards at B&M casinos as well, depending on how the table is running.
Food for thought..
funeral979
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Yep, I have seen a few casino reps looking at this thread, and no replies.
Whenever there is a thread about rigged slots or lowered RTPs, you will always have a few reps and players chime in about how its all just random and its just bad luck....and hey look I have had this great winning session, etc, etc etc...
Yet, not one player or rep has come here to challenge these allegations about online blackjack. Maybe because no one is winning??? Maybe its the truth???
I personally don't see how ANY online casino can be accredited if they are running a blackjack game that is not being advertised for what it really is...a slot machine with cards.
I imagine the reason the outrage is not that loud against the blackjack unfairness is because a fair number of players have simply given up playing the rigged game over the years.
I imagine the number of blackjack players at online casinos are an incredibly small number...in fact the number of total table game players is probably 10% of the slot machine #'s....and 10% is probably a real generous estimation....
That is why everything is designed around the slots because that is where 90% of people are, I never see table game bonuses unless you want to play an absurd WR 60-70x requirement.
But of course we will never know because the number of players at a online casino is a "State Secret", to many secrets in every aspect of online gaming imo..
I imagine the number of blackjack players at online casinos are an incredibly small number...in fact the number of total table game players is probably 10% of the slot machine #'s....and 10% is probably a real generous estimation....
That is why everything is designed around the slots because that is where 90% of people are, I never see table game bonuses unless you want to play an absurd WR 60-70x requirement.
But of course we will never know because the number of players at a online casino is a "State Secret", to many secrets in every aspect of online gaming imo..
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if i remember correctly i was once told the all games are a form of slot version even roulette cant think of who told me but i was asking some good questions & got a few good answers back & it was to do with MG casinos aswell , not 100% sure of my facts though but thinking along those lines this would sum it up very very well indeed ,the patchy play the endless runs of pure bad luck those cards which just laugh at you , yes seems like ive been drugs but never done them , if it was rng play on all games maybe this is why you get that sinking feeling your being screwed.
4 of a kind
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Thanks Pina for the suggestion, but Bryan actually started this thread and titled it, removing Winbig and my debate about this from another thread that we started to derail. I'm sure he's aware of it. I also can only assume since my question to him was: "Bryan, is there anyway you could gather this information with confirmed fact?" the confirmed fact probably can't be achieved, since his information would only be coming from a secret source.
I also would think that anyone that considered this thread to be based on cries of rigged software could only be a shill. Whether table games are being run by Random or RTG is totally acceptable and would not be considered rigged or cheating at all. Although, if being told a game is being run using Random draw yet actually being run from RTP, would be considered misleading and rogue behavior. A players strategy would change drastically from one version to the other. For example a player's money management system along with different playing strategy's especially with Video Poker. Once a player knows he's playing a slot machine changing of games would become more often instead of long term sessions expecting the actual odds to hold true.
On a different view many threads unlike this one are in fact just cries of rigged software with no foundation or proof, with some exceptions like JHV's past threads. Yet, you would think a good advocate would review rigged threads regardless and make that determination even if just for the sake of preserving the accredited list and squashing stupidity.
I also think why we may not be getting a response from any casinos one way or the other is the fear the casinos have of actually making a statement only to be confronted by someone that actually knows the facts and could prove otherwise. As it stands now if someone (not a casino) were to prove it one way or the other the casinos are safe to say we never announced or promoted otherwise.
It's obvious casinos would prefer players to believe it's random and by not responding (at least honestly) will keep future amateurs and uninformed players at those games, playing with wrong strategy and enhancing the house edge even further.
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4 of a kind
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At least Slotland admits on their web site RTP draw. Why don't everyone else define their games?
How are the odds created for the game?
Slotland ensures that all of the online casino games perform just like the biggest land based casinos! Our games have been designed by software experts to perform and function in the same manner and set up. We use number generators that have been tested and found to conform to similar games found in Atlantic City's random payout frequency. For your protection, all bets and wagers at Slotland online casino are recorded. There is always a complete audit result history on all games that are played.
All games share the same mechanism that determines the jackpot win. With card games the probability of hitting the jackpot combination is not natural, but controlled by this shared random generator in the same exact way that slot machines are won.
How are the odds created for the game?
Slotland ensures that all of the online casino games perform just like the biggest land based casinos! Our games have been designed by software experts to perform and function in the same manner and set up. We use number generators that have been tested and found to conform to similar games found in Atlantic City's random payout frequency. For your protection, all bets and wagers at Slotland online casino are recorded. There is always a complete audit result history on all games that are played.
All games share the same mechanism that determines the jackpot win. With card games the probability of hitting the jackpot combination is not natural, but controlled by this shared random generator in the same exact way that slot machines are won.
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They only admitted it after many players were outraged after being able to prove that the card games and VP in fact played out as a slot machine.
So in other words, no casino software company is going to come out and say one way or the other until someone comes up with proof.
So in other words, no casino software company is going to come out and say one way or the other until someone comes up with proof.
4 of a kind
Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll
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Can you direct me to where I might be able to read about this? If not could you be more specific with some of the details?
When did this confrontation take place?
Where did it take place?
How many players were involved with obtaining proof?
What type of proof was submitted and considered valid enough for Slotland to at least post this information on their website?
Slotland had this quote:
"With card games the probability of hitting the jackpot combination is not natural, but controlled by this shared random generator in the same exact way that slot machines are won"
posted under the frequently asked question page of their website. I never played there or would have read this if I did, had someone not directed me to that statement.
Since I would assume based on what you said this statement was missing from their website till convincing evidence was brought forward confirming an RTP platform, were the players involved with this dispute satisfied with where this information was in fact posted?
Although this information would be hard to find not being listed under game rules or game help, you still have to give them credit for having it listed at all.
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You are not going to get much discussion if you make it clear you won't believe anyone disagreeing with you?
In my opinion all card games have to use the same mechanics as a normal game with real cards would. If any casino actually used something else then they would be cheating like
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was proven to do.4 of a kind
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Yes I agree with you and thank you for additional information on this subject. That comment was indeed out of line and unnecessary but was based on posters suggesting this thread might be construed by others as a conspiracy mission while only trying to determine the platform.
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re: Slotland -
I'm sure it's somewhere in here: https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/slotland-fraudulent-video-poker-games.5371/
It's a 10 page long thread, so you can hunt it down yourself - I don't have time for that
It's pretty common knowledge to oldtimers here that all games at slotland are based on slots and by now means even resemble a real card/video poker game.
I'm sure it's somewhere in here: https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/slotland-fraudulent-video-poker-games.5371/
It's a 10 page long thread, so you can hunt it down yourself - I don't have time for that
It's pretty common knowledge to oldtimers here that all games at slotland are based on slots and by now means even resemble a real card/video poker game.
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