Exterminating the low-roller from online casinos

[Mavin1]

Okay, this is not going to be an endless debate about VARIANCE, RNG's OR RTP's. As I am still pondering them from other threads I had gotten myself into.

This is about the low roller, 20 cent to 75 cent players not finding the good play anymore and it is a fact despite the statistics of the above that the small player/low roller is being systematically exterminated from online casinos.

My reason for thinking this way is not based only on my experience but on the experience of many many posters here saying the same thing.
Can't get the bonus rounds or the free spins and the payouts are very rarely more than the wager amount. Usually the line win payouts are coming in at well below the wager amount keeping the low roller on a constant decline until they/we have busted out again and again.

Think about how when a new casino comes on board the play for everyone is very good and fair. Then they become known to the entire playing public and are hit with scads of high rollers, people that can afford to wager $2 and up. Now they have to rethink the RTP so they are not taken to the cleaners by the big money payers. How would they do this and yet still have the same statistics? My guess is and I have said this before, that they are spreading the wins out that are above the players wager amount and freespin/bonus rounds where a great deal can be won by the high rollers, by increasing the smaller wins (less than wager amount) inbetween the big wins. If a casino has increased smaller wins and decreased large wins then the RTP has not changed.

Think of it as a mile marker, for every mile you have a 1/4 mile marker, each of the 1/4 mile markers are a decent win with the less than decent to none inbetween every 1/4 mile marker and the 1 mile marker is the freespin/bonus round triggers. Now remove the 1/4 mile marker and only have the 1/2 mile marker and 1 mile marker, two of the now gone 1/4 mile markers have become the less than wager amount win to no win and the 1/2 mile has become the win equal to or above the wager amount as has the 1 mile marker. Now the freespin round/bonus rounds have been set to the 2 mile marker with the same amount of distance not changing between the 1/4 mile to the 2 mile thus not changing the RTP either. You still have the same RTP because statistically you are giving the same amount of wins spread out in smaller amounts. This keeps the casino at a constant attitude of what they are paying out keeping them in the profit margins they require and still be able to pay the high rollers the types of wins they are getting at the cost of sacrificing the low rollers.
Or think in terms of $1, they can still give the %100 of the dollar but in pennies instead of quarters, 50 cents or the $1.

That is why we are not heard, because if the line win amouts were adjusted back to the original 1 mile marker settings the high rollers would kill the casino business and I'm sure casinos would rather sacrifice the low rollers than themselves. So it will never be like it was for the little player ever again.

Hopefully I have not confused to many with this thought but maybe the real issue is not the RTP or RNG or Variance, it's the high rollers that are killing it for the low rollers because they have the means to keep banging away at a casino and walking away with decent sized bankrolls on a regular basis, where if we the low rollers manage to walk away with $50 anymore we feel we hit the jackpot.

I will add to be fair to the high rollers that maybe there are just to many of us low rollers too.
Just my opinion.

[DemonUK]

Just a quick response to the above.......

last 3 months aladdins wishes on two occasions 1000 and 1060 times my 40c

Aztec Feature Guarantee $98 on 25c stake.

[NeuroPR]

That's exactly what i was thinking off the last month all the time...
Since i'm a low roller (my pockets can't afford to play too much), i've experienced the last 2 months that slots became from hard to ultra tight for my bets. I've marked down my deposits and bets the last month to figure out what's happening. The results were terrible for low bets and somehow 'acceptable' in two deposits that i decided to bet up to 2$ per spin.

The 'miles' example you mentioned is exactly what i mean.
Of course this 'policy' is not fair for online players. Others have big and full pockets to their pants, and others have some tiny ones with some pennies to spend and have fun...

Anyway, i totally agree with your opinion, maybe this topic needs some more discussion to hear other ppl what have to say.

[Mavin1]

Just a quick response to the above.......

last 3 months aladdins wishes on two occasions 1000 and 1060 times my 40c

Aztec Feature Guarantee $98 on 25c stake.

Not to say that a low roller still can't get lucky once in awhile, because it can happen, just not as often and for fewer low rollers.

[De Beuker]

Okay, this is not going to be an endless debate about VARIANCE, RNG's OR RTP's. As I am still pondering them from other threads I had gotten myself into.

This is about the low roller, 20 cent to 75 cent players not finding the good play anymore and it is a fact despite the statistics of the above that the small player/low roller is being systematically exterminated from online casinos.

My reason for thinking this way is not based only on my experience but on the experience of many many posters here saying the same thing.
Can't get the bonus rounds or the free spins and the payouts are very rarely more than the wager amount. Usually the line win payouts are coming in at well below the wager amount keeping the low roller on a constant decline until they/we have busted out again and again.

Think about how when a new casino comes on board the play for everyone is very good and fair. Then they become known to the entire playing public and are hit with scads of high rollers, people that can afford to wager $2 and up. Now they have to rethink the RTP so they are not taken to the cleaners by the big money payers. How would they do this and yet still have the same statistics? My guess is and I have said this before, that they are spreading the wins out that are above the players wager amount and freespin/bonus rounds where a great deal can be won by the high rollers, by increasing the smaller wins (less than wager amount) inbetween the big wins. If a casino has increased smaller wins and decreased large wins then the RTP has not changed.

Think of it as a mile marker, for every mile you have a 1/4 mile marker, each of the 1/4 mile markers are a decent win with the less than decent to none inbetween every 1/4 mile marker and the 1 mile marker is the freespin/bonus round triggers. Now remove the 1/4 mile marker and only have the 1/2 mile marker and 1 mile marker, two of the now gone 1/4 mile markers have become the less than wager amount win to no win and the 1/2 mile has become the win equal to or above the wager amount as has the 1 mile marker. Now the freespin round/bonus rounds have been set to the 2 mile marker with the same amount of distance not changing between the 1/4 mile to the 2 mile thus not changing the RTP either. You still have the same RTP because statistically you are giving the same amount of wins spread out in smaller amounts. This keeps the casino at a constant attitude of what they are paying out keeping them in the profit margins they require and still be able to pay the high rollers the types of wins they are getting at the cost of sacrificing the low rollers.
Or think in terms of $1, they can still give the %100 of the dollar but in pennies instead of quarters, 50 cents or the $1.

That is why we are not heard, because if the line win amouts were adjusted back to the original 1 mile marker settings the high rollers would kill the casino business and I'm sure casinos would rather sacrifice the low rollers than themselves. So it will never be like it was for the little player ever again.

Hopefully I have not confused to many with this thought but maybe the real issue is not the RTP or RNG or Variance, it's the high rollers that are killing it for the low rollers because they have the means to keep banging away at a casino and walking away with decent sized bankrolls on a regular basis, where if we the low rollers manage to walk away with $50 anymore we feel we hit the jackpot.

I will add to be fair to the high rollers that maybe there are just to many of us low rollers too.
Just my opinion.

You might very wel be right..
I've often wondered how it is possible that some people just keep hitting those monsterhits at Rivals.
I've never ever hit anything over 1000x bet at Rival.
And Scary 1+2 and Psychedelic Sixties are my most played slots.
Those 2500x bet and higher wins always seem to hit on $2 or $4 or even higher bets..
And casino's dont like lowrollers, thats for sure.
Betway for example have altered their slots so its not even possible to low roll them anymore.
The minimum bet for Isis is $2,50 per spin, Avalon $2.- per spin..

[Wildfire7]

Surely the bet size is not relevant to the outcome. Bet size in proportion to the bankroll on a Pro rata basis, for low and high rollers it should be the same.

A low roller may have less chances because the zero balance will always be on the horizon before a lucky win could come to the rescue. Whereas someone with a larger bankroll can stick around that bit longer to hit something decent. Low rolling is good if your going for low cashouts, otherwise you need a lot of wins to keep your bankroll increasing.

An unusual thread in that its usually people saying that when they up their stakes they never win. Not the other way around.

Mike

[Simmo!]

I've been told that because of deposit/cashout processing costs and the cost of support required to maintain a large player base, a low-roller is often seen as a loss-making player to a casino, so it *may* make sense for *some* casinos to reduce the number of low-rollers. Or turn them into higher rollers

But, while the thread title is an interesting topic for discussion, I don't think they could do this through reductions in expected returns based on levels of play.

[silcnlayc]

And casino's dont like lowrollers, thats for sure.

That is because it ccosts them more in the long run for the deposits and withdrawals since many lowrollers withdraw less than $100 many times and deposit very little to begin with. Each transaction costs these casinos..If you look, the newer casinos are upping their minimum deposits..because of this.

An unusual thread in that its usually people saying that when they up their stakes they never win. Not the other way around.

I think many that are complaining in this department is upping the bet from 20 cents up to $1...not the higher stakes...and getting no return for it..

My husband just played $250 in lowrolling and got exactly ZERO bonus rounds in all the games he played at 40cents to $1...so there is something going on...because he even noticed it lately..

.

[silcnlayc]

Simmo! I've been told that because of deposit/cashout processing costs and the cost of support required to maintain a large player base, a low-roller is often seen as a loss-making player to a casino, so it *may* make sense for *some* casinos to reduce the number of low-rollers. Or turn them into higher rollers

Beat me to it! I said the same thing within seconds of your posting!

.

[Stovetopp]

I've been told that because of deposit/cashout processing costs and the cost of support required to maintain a large player base, a low-roller is often seen as a loss-making player to a casino, so it *may* make sense for *some* casinos to reduce the number of low-rollers. Or turn them into higher rollers

But, while the thread title is an interesting topic for discussion, I don't think they could do this through reductions in expected returns based on levels of play.

Ridiculous!!! It cost the same to process 100 or 10000...I assume the casinos while located in "underdeveloped" countries uses computer and not human beings to do any transactions

I know for sure the B&M casinos make most of their monies on the penny machines..onjline casinos cant differiante bgetween penny machines or dollars machines so the odds are the3 same if you bet 5/spin or 20cents/spin
Here I am referring to the real series type slots and not the 3 reel slots.

This is my 2cents worth