How slot machines may work, an update!!!

[4 of a kind]

I agree with everything you say thelawnet. Yet, that's exactly what Howard L. said for the site he sponsors.

I wonder how many poker sites use this system?

[me_and_ed]

The following was a post by dannyandf on a forum called slotmachines forum and credit to the author is given at the end i believe. A while back, i tried to explain my thoughts of how online slots may be more like playing a lottery instead of traditional landbased slots with real random number generators. The post was in resonse to some issues that the Oregon lottery had with one of their "slot-like" machines Davinci Diamonds (i think we've all seen this one in casinos.) Basically, it shows that MAYBE online slots don't work the way we think.... though they can still be somewhat random:

" The gambling machines at American Indian-owned casinos in Snohomish County are among the region's most popular ways to pass the time. The flashing lights and ringing bells of the machines transport local residents to Las Vegas, and there's always a chance of winning big.

But they're not really slot machines.

The tribes and state gambling supervisors call them "slot-style" machines. It may seem like a nit-picky distinction, but there's a big difference between the slot machines in Las Vegas and other gambling hot spots and the slot-style machines in Washington state.

Slot machines, like those in Las Vegas, have a random number generator inside the machine, according to the Washington Indian Gaming Association. Winnings at each machine are solely based on that machine's number generator.

Slot-style machines are electronic versions of scratch lottery tickets. All the slot-style machines are connected to a collective number generator. At the Tulalip Casino, Angel of the Winds Casino or other gambling halls in the state, playing the "slots" means playing against everyone sitting at a machine.

"They look similar to a slot machine, but you're actually purchasing an electronic scratch ticket," said Ernest Stebbins, executive director of the Washington Indian Gaming Association.
When tribes in Washington State first negotiated the right to open casinos, state officials said gambling machines should operate on the same basis as the state lottery system, Stebbins said.

That means there's no difference between sitting at a slot-style machine in a local casino and standing at the counter at a convenience store to repeatedly purchase scratch lottery tickets. But convenience store clerks don't ring bells when someone wins or ask gamblers if they'd like a cocktail.

Reporter Krista J. Kapralos: 425-339-3422 or kkapralos@heraldnet.com. "


What do you guys think? Possible that some online software is designed this way too?

This one hits home Hippo, I live within a few hours of these casinos and play at Tulalip, Angel and Skagit, they pretty much play the same as they do here in Canada, just not sure how the Government in WA State regulates or if they regulate, here in my BC they are regulated to about 92% based on 10 million spins at max bet.

[DogBoy001]

Perhaps we are talking about perspectives.

Why do you feel you do not have a chance of wining when you buy a lottery ticket. Is it predetermined before they are sold? When do they select the winning ticket #, before they are sold or after, just before anouncement?

It's far more than just perception.

When one buys a lottery ticket the draw is occurring subsequent to this event, and the draw is conducted all in one go, following which winning tickets are displayed and the winners get paid.

In the slot lottery system described the draw is occurring first, following which players receive a slot display equating to a "ticket" from the available tickets that have not yet been displayed.

Hence in example A) (real world lottery) when a player buys a ticket they have as much chance of winning as any other player

Under example B) (lottery-style slot) a player may have zero chance of winning.

This is certainly not just a matter of perception, unless one is saying that ignorance of the way such a system works is bliss.

Gambling has one inherent principle that is not being followed in example B: The punter should always have a chance of winning

Woooof

[mac-online]

If my instincts are correct (and I would LOVE a casino rep to do some investigating at his home office) it really makes no difference, if all online slots are calculated in a collective way. The description of it being the same as standing in line at a convenience store (to me) is a negative reactionary impulse from an unframiliar idea. This is a normal reaction to something that is not repetative.

I am curious in a trivia sort of way. I have thought about the difference in a RNG making a different calculation for every spin of every slot player compared to one string of calculations over 1,ooo,ooo slot players all at once and the difference does not seam to be significant in considering the final outcome or fairness. If a player has an emotional charge over the difference , then it matters in regards to popularity and promotions. But for me I see that the outcomes are just as "fair" and exciting as individual calculations.

Like the video slots coming out for the first time 10 years ago, habituality, inherent in our human nature will ask for "the same way", meaning we feel we need to have the slot machine look like the way it did in the begining. But slowly we broke that bond with “normality” and now the video slots do not have the look of a machine standing in a row at a casino. Nor do the just have 3 reels…AND there are embedded interactive bonus features. WOW! We have come a long way... slowly.

In the same way I feel we are needing psychologically the same as we did yesterday in regards to one on one calculations. To me the difference is only a head trip. A collective calculation is just as valid as single... if in fact that is how it is done. It would seam easier and more secure to the operators and the players to have ALL payouts within a defined time or spin period that is large enough. AND If one calculation was used for multiple players then The slight shortcomings of the Pseudo RNG would be compensated for because the different players would be taking out “results” in one calculated sequence in an unorganized way. This would contribute to the randomness of the process.

I would LOVE a casino rep to do some investigating at his home office


But to actually know how it is done beyond speculation is immposible without expert knowledge.

[kimss]

And old post which still do not include the obvious idea.

Online casinoes works with an account, you do not get more accounts. They track your play, and wager and wins. (lets not forget the playcheck data).

A simple sollution to keep the players happy is load balancing. You give a random play, however you add a little magic with a simple if statement. If the user is supposedly a winner, and the next spin is a winner - let's spin again so hi stands 2x chance of losing. Likewise you are a loser for to long, spin the numbers atleast 5 times and serve the best win.

This methods are so easy to implement, and impossible to detect since the numbers are still random - however you are either unlucky or lucky at the time.

[DogBoy001]

I am curious in a trivia sort of way. I have thought about the difference in a RNG making a different calculation for every spin of every slot player compared to one string of calculations over 1,ooo,ooo slot players all at once and the difference does not seam to be significant in considering the final outcome or fairness. If a player has an emotional charge over the difference , then it matters in regards to popularity and promotions. But for me I see that the outcomes are just as "fair" and exciting as individual calculations.

Heya,

We were debating a lottery-style system versus random slots.

Storing a string of random results is not a lottery-system.
If an RNG is independently deriving results as in a random slot system, with no correlation between spins, then simply storing results should have little impact, but does bring in security issues.

The lottery system of slots does not function in this manner.

Woooof

[4 of a kind]

Maybe the reason for developing this central server type slot machines, was for financial reasons. I would assume that the expense for maintaining individual random machines, requires many technicians and a great deal of maintenance. They also would have the convenience of a simple download to change at will all the machines percentage at once. To change anything on a single random machine, would require each individual machine to manually be worked on.

This is the only reason I could justify for them to bring such a shitty system to the forefront.

[hippo925]

wow! some great insights and theories. The most interesting thing to me is that IF an online slot software provider did indeed have a "lottery" style system, there would essentially be NO way for players to know the difference.

Keep in mind that IF a casino used software which was basically like buying scratch tickets:

1. They can still state that it is "random"
2. They can still advertise "random number generator certified by blah blah blah..."
3. They can still state RTP is 92%, 95%, blah blah blah...
4. They can still say....... pretty much anything you can say about truly random "vegas" style slots.

Also, i think it is interesting what other types of programming can be introduced that would still provide a "pseudo" random result while giving the casino an even bigger "edge." Kimss theory was a scary one but i could see how it would work extremely well (were you referring to MG?)

Obviously, i think there are great casinos out there, but i'm not really into the "they win no matter what, so they have no reason to cheat, etc..."
It's funny, but of all the people and groups in this world, how can online casino's and software makers be the ones that are assumed to be the most honest and the only group immune to greed...lol.

I also keep in mind that whenever an online casino is caught cheating....it seems it is ALWAYS an error or glitch. No one ever wants to call it for what it is...weird. Casinos have very little to lose in this respect.

and again, this is all just hypothetical, but interesting.

[hippo925]

If my instincts are correct (and I would LOVE a casino rep to do some investigating at his home office) it really makes no difference, if all online slots are calculated in a collective way. The description of it being the same as standing in line at a convenience store (to me) is a negative reactionary impulse from an unframiliar idea. This is a normal reaction to something that is not repetative.

I am curious in a trivia sort of way. I have thought about the difference in a RNG making a different calculation for every spin of every slot player compared to one string of calculations over 1,ooo,ooo slot players all at once and the difference does not seam to be significant in considering the final outcome or fairness. If a player has an emotional charge over the difference , then it matters in regards to popularity and promotions. But for me I see that the outcomes are just as "fair" and exciting as individual calculations.

Like the video slots coming out for the first time 10 years ago, habituality, inherent in our human nature will ask for "the same way", meaning we feel we need to have the slot machine look like the way it did in the begining. But slowly we broke that bond with “normality” and now the video slots do not have the look of a machine standing in a row at a casino. Nor do the just have 3 reels…AND there are embedded interactive bonus features. WOW! We have come a long way... slowly.

In the same way I feel we are needing psychologically the same as we did yesterday in regards to one on one calculations. To me the difference is only a head trip. A collective calculation is just as valid as single... if in fact that is how it is done. It would seam easier and more secure to the operators and the players to have ALL payouts within a defined time or spin period that is large enough. AND If one calculation was used for multiple players then The slight shortcomings of the Pseudo RNG would be compensated for because the different players would be taking out “results” in one calculated sequence in an unorganized way. This would contribute to the randomness of the process.

I would LOVE a casino rep to do some investigating at his home office


But to actually know how it is done beyond speculation is immposible without expert knowledge.

Think i agree with you. i actually don't see too much of a difference outside of the psychology part. If you play lottery scratch tickets, it is still random to you unless you already know what everyone else got. If there is a lottery that has one scratch ticket awarding $1000 and both you and your friend buy one ticket AND he happens to get the $1000, then yeah... that sucks because you now know you can't win it..... but didn't both of you have the same odds?

I think it is mostly psychology and people would feel better thinking that it was all truly random. Just like people would rather believe that bonus rounds and free spins were all truly random.... If they learn differently, it takes the fun away for a lot of people.

[DogBoy001]

Think i agree with you. i actually don't see too much of a difference outside of the psychology part. If you play lottery scratch tickets, it is still random to you unless you already know what everyone else got. If there is a lottery that has one scratch ticket awarding $1000 and both you and your friend buy one ticket AND he happens to get the $1000, then yeah... that sucks because you now know you can't win it..... but didn't both of you have the same odds?

Think of it this way:

Say on a lottery-style system there were (n) winning "tickets", say 100,000 and (x) losing "tickets", say 900,000.
Picture a scenario where, with 950,000 "tickets" sold, and 50,000 remaining, all winning prizes have been awarded.

Now the next 50,000 requests for a result must award a non-winning combination (in this extreme example).
Thus the last 50,000 bets are bets made with nil chance of return.
Even if there are only 100 bets remaining, or 1 bet remaining in a given cycle, the fact that a player has zip, zilch, zero chance to win is unfair (in comparison to a random system where on any game they can win)

Which is the inherent unfairness I refer to, to say nothing of top prize allocation.
In a lottery system there may only be one top prize.

A random system, by comparison, could award top prizes in successive spins.

It's way more than psychology involved.
A player that hits the top prize in a lottery slot may, for instance, stop playing that game for a period, knowing that it's impossible to hit it again until the next lottery cycle.
Similarly, given dissemination of information on gaming forums, in a publicised lottery system players may decrease play after realising top prize in a particular draw has been awarded, purely because their relative RTP has decreased, as this prize can no longer be awarded.

Woooof