How slot machines may work, an update!!!

[hippo925]

Heya,

Lottery-style and bingo-based slots (such as class II US machines) tend to be a quirk found in some jurisdictions that ban random spinning reel slot machines (by random, I mean independent un-weighted reel stops driven by RNG results, followed by win evaluation, and with no reference to the history of play before or after any given spin)

Random spinning reel slots enjoy tremendous popularity, so in jurisdictions where these are banned, but other mechanisms are allowed, you tend to find machines that have the semblance of a slot machine, but function and play very differently.

The systems have limitations, and I doubt you'd ever want to use a system of this type unless one was forced to by jurisdictional rules.

Woooof

In case anyone was wondering... this is the resident rtg expert i was talking about Apparently, RTG slots calculate a random number for each reel and a win evaluator determines the wins, like vegas slots. I wonder how other software's work?

[mac-online]

I need to wrap this around my head. So Please correct this simple statement if it is wrong.

You are talking about two different systems
1 a RNG in every machine (vegas style)
2 a RNG that is spread out over many machines. (scratchcard style)

Am I correct? Is'nt it as simple as that?
If so I can understand the thread. f not I need to bear down with more brain power to "get it".

[DogBoy001]

You are talking about two different systems
1 a RNG in every machine (vegas style)
2 a RNG that is spread out over many machines. (scratchcard style)

Am I correct? Is'nt it as simple as that?

Heya,

Pool-based results are very different from a system that gives random results.

Under a pool-based structure there are a defined number of winning and non-winning results, with winning results of varying magnitude.
There may be, for example, only one result of the top prize, and a swag of non-winning results.

Think of it as a lottery with a fixed number of tickets that are sold and then the lottery is drawn (or think of it as a physical print run of scratch lottery cards)
All results will be dispatched prior to a new pool being opened for sale.

In the scenario outlined, a pool-based system would call for a result from a central server, which would allocate a result from all remaining results.
Thus if the only remaining results are non-winning results, these will still be sent out irrespective of the fact that the player could not win.
Similarly, if the top prize result or results have all been won, there is nil chance that the player could win that prize.

Which is the main reason that these types of systems are inherently unfair...players have no way of determining whether they even stand a chance of winning, whereas in a random game there is no correlation between the game that is being played and games that have been played before.

Bingo back-end systems that use slot displays operate somewhat differently, and depending on the system can still achieve a level of randomness in the result, and AWP's use reactive determination to remain within fixed RTP bands.

Sheeesh, give me a random system anyday.

Woooof

[mac-online]

Which is the main reason that these types of systems are inherently unfair...players have no way of determining whether they even stand a chance of winning, whereas in a random game there is no correlation between the game that is being played and games that have been played before.

There is nothing in existence that does not have a relative "meaning" attached to it. And for every person the object remains the same yet the meaning is different. So I can not argue that he two systems have different meaning for every different person. What I am trying to get is the meaning that it will have for me. I understand the different systems that produce the normal Vegas slot games with a RNG and the Pooled games using some form of randomness to print the winning numbers on the tickets. The big difference I see is that the pooled systems have a smother variance. Their payout is based on the same RTP but over a specific time period. This comes with a definite psychological impact for some people. Yet your statement of "unfair" could be well placed for you. But for me and unfair practice would be one that gives the operators more money at the end of the story and the players less. This does not seam to be the case.

You state that the wining ticket could have already been sold so the next buyer does not have a chance. In one limited view point this could be a fact But really (for me) no one knows which ticket it was.. the 1st sold or the last sold. And it was chosen randomly. Also if you where to step out of the apparent flow of time and looked at the situation from an absolute view point (this where time exists but not flowing forward nor backward). You would also be able to see that the Vegas system with a PRNG will not give the player a win even though he is about to place a coin in the slot machine.

I am not trying to be argumentative nor am I trying to sell the idea of lottery tickets. I am having fun with psychological perspectives ...and perhaps the term "unfair" is in question.

But I feel I might not understand the difference in the two systems yet. Do I reflect and understanding of them or am I still floundering in the sugnificance of their differences?

[DogBoy001]

I am not trying to be argumentative nor am I trying to sell the idea of lottery tickets. I am having fun with psychological perspectives ...and perhaps the term "unfair" is in question.

Heya,

In essence it boils down to one system (random) where you may or may not win on any given spin, given that there is no correlation between spin A and spin B, and in the example of the lottery-style, a system where you may not even have the chance to win when you place your bet, or have a chance to win all advertised prizes.

That seems pretty unfair to me.

Woooof

[mac-online]

Perhaps we are talking about perspectives.

Why do you feel you do not have a chance of wining when you buy a lottery ticket. Is it predetermined before they are sold? When do they select the winning ticket #, before they are sold or after, just before anouncement?

[4 of a kind]

From what I understand from the two different types of systems, I was told it works like this.

In Yonkers (NY) they recently added a casino at the horse track (trotters) that was going down the drain. This lottery system we talk about with a central server is the system in use there. All the machines are video slot machines, and all the wages made on them are sent to a central server. This central server makes the decisions for all the machines on the casino floor based on the wages that are being sent to the central server. When its time for a jackpot the server randomly selects a machine and feeds it the information to hit a jackpot. This also is the way all the different payouts are decided. I would assume that the central server takes into consideration the different coin size being wagered, before a payout is made.

What it boils down to, is that everyone in the casino is playing on the same machine at once.

There also was a big to do already about a scam at this place with the internal operators. Apparently, they also give out all sorts of free gifts, and cash as promotions. These promotions are allegedly awarded randomly to players on machines. Well some how the operators new which machines would win the free gifts, and made sure friends or family would be at these certain machines. They of course would chop up the free gifts between the operators and the players that were in the know. From what I remember reading about it, the amount was pretty impressive that they won. Of course they were all allegedly charged criminally. They kept this incident pretty quiet, since nothing else about it has ever been printed or on the news since the story broke. Was about two months ago this happened.

So, if the operators new which machines were going to win the random prizes, how random is it? I don’t know if the prize wins, are actually connected to the same software the payouts for the machines are. But I’m certainly not setting my feet in that place.

Rigged will eventually become the topic for these places, just as online casinos and poker rooms have become. Not that independent machines with their own random generator can’t be rigged; as we all know about that internal technician in Vegas that set certain machines to hit jackpots after following a certain coin denomination pattern.

I don’t know about you, but my feelings are when humans are involved with over seeing writing or entering software that involves gambling payouts, I’m not that comfortable. I love to gamble and do take that chance online, but with no doubt in a small way when compared to live.

When it comes to slot machines, I’ll take a machine and its own random generator every time. You should always remember this quote when playing online, "money could make a blind man see"

[mac-online]

I think you have said it well. When humans are involved their is a chance it was rigged. And this
Is what people perceive as unfair… not so much the system. Thank You.
RTG with fruit frenzy slot machine.
Preprinted scratch cards could be distributed unfairly. Etc etc.
These are just two examples of manipulation by humans in “casino slots” and physical scratch cards.

On a slightly different subject… It would seam you could also draw a correlation between your idea of everyone playing on the same slot machine in Yonkers and a lottery ticket that was selected just before the payout. There is no predetermined out come and people are selling Bogus tickets. They are playing on the same slot machine at the same time and the slot machine has a low variance phenomenon where it is set to conform to the RTP. It sort of its own animal. But unfair I don’t think it is…. Just different.

OK then a technical question about PRNG in online casinos. How do they "exactly" work?
It must be one of the following ways, or a variation of them.

A- The PRNG calculator produces a number on every spin of every player at the slot machine separately.

B- The PRNG produces a string of results on the first spin of a single player and these #'s are dolled out as the player goes along, one by one.

C- The PRNG is continually producing different calculations for one player every millisecond and when the slot is clicked it hits the calculated number by a coincidence of timing.

D- The PRNG is producing a series of numbers and for every body and each slot in every casino happens to be clicked which produces a win or loss as this stream of numbers is coming by.

E-The PRNG produces a string of numbers in the morning (for example) and in sequence they are dolled out to the spins of players in a time sequence.

There are a number of possibilities. For me it is an interesting question. Any one know a programer that can shed some light on this trivia question?

[4 of a kind]

Howard Leterer once explained that the cards that are dealt out during a poker game online, are determined by when ones mouse is clicked. Another words if your the last person to act, even if its a fold, the cards that flop, turn, or river are based on when the last player in the hand clicks the mouse.

He explained it worked like that so there was no way of someone eventually learning how to know in advance the already predetermined next card. Sort of protecting everyone from someone peeking at the deck.

I wasn't happy with this explanation, because ever since then when I get sucked out on I wonder what could of happened had I waited another second.

I prefer taking my lumps knowing I had nothing to do with the outcome, or whoever clicked last.

[thelawnet]

Howard Leterer once explained that the cards that are dealt out during a poker game online, are determined by when ones mouse is clicked. Another words if your the last person to act, even if its a fold, the cards that flop, turn, or river are based on when the last player in the hand clicks the mouse.

He explained it worked like that so there was no way of someone eventually learning how to know in advance the already predetermined next card. Sort of protecting everyone from someone peeking at the deck.

I wasn't happy with this explanation, because ever since then when I get sucked out on I wonder what could of happened had I waited another second.

I prefer taking my lumps knowing I had nothing to do with the outcome, or whoever clicked last.

This is just one of doing things. Some games will use a shuffling algorithm, which electronically shuffles the cards (or their numerical representation 1 - 52), such that they just take the next card off the already shuffled deck.

This is a better solution in many ways than the one you describe, because what you are effectively describing is a shuffle that takes place after every card - and that's not realistic at all.

The server shouldn't send anything other than the current card to the poker client in any circumstances anyway, so it's not true that this is a security risk - the client cannot look at the shuffled deck, any more than a player in a casino can.