Reply to Nash from RTG rocks thread

[Rusty]

"REAL TIME" ,if true I would not shocked. A little different but similar take that I am convinced of is software is correlated (if,then) or better said, we are not just dealing with a quasi-random number generator.

That said, the business model of onlines somehow still has given me ample opportunity to end up on the positive side of expectation. I emphasize "opportunity" which is not the equivalent of my actual results as they relate to expectation. The model!!

Regulation, better left for another time but the term is definitely misconstrued imho.

Absolutely it is possible to win but obviously we have more chance on a 97% slot than a 85% slot.
Trying to win on low variance a 85% slot, especially when the bonus rounds are set to payout a certain amount is probably close to impossible though.

How often are we playing 97% and how often say 91%?
As for manipulated in real time, I said can be.
That is it is very easy technology to use a weighting system that alters theoretical returns in real time.
It is not necessary of course because there is really no need to alter it from spin to spin so it is better to think of it that the return can be altered at any time should it exist.
The software suppliers would need to feel it a desirable feature that their customers (Casinos) would want though.

As far as I know all the software suppliers strongly deny the operor can change the RTP of a slot at any given time and need to ask for permission first.
Reality check.
Casino, "Please Sir may we lower our slots to 93%?"
RTG, "Absolutely not you know you are still making 3% with the 97% model, you know the reason we don't let you change the RTP without asking is because we value our brand so highly and don't want complaints about low returns and we would never, ever, ever sell our software to any operator we consider unethical"
Casino, "Sorry to have bothered you."

Does not compute.

I already had this typed out and got thread locked message so I will stick it here, don't want to waste all that Two fingered energy (typing!)

[slotheadlizard]

First off what a shame such an interesting thread was closed. I sadly felt it going in that direction. Wish everyone could have kept it professional so it could have continued.

Rusty, what a great analogy with he play %s. Usually when someone tries to explain the mechanics of slots and how they work, I zone out and the speaker turns into the Peanuts Teacher. I don't understand a thing. Your example sheds some light though.

I have never really thought about whether or not RTG slots where rigged really. I just knew that as of late some were not paying back. I'm always skeptical of online casinos in general. I picture casino operations with one guy in his mother's garage answering the 1800 number, while he chats with players, his wife is operating a 1-976 number, while she answers tech support questions about my cell phone.

My solution as I have said was to just delete the ones that are not paying. I'm not sure if in the long run that is the answer. As Rusty has explained you don't know which casinos will pay at what % when. The casinos will probably just get a customer to replace me and continue the same practices. Why is this not ok, well most of us on here play at RTG Accredited casinos. If something is going on, they should be held accountable. Not in a punishing sense, but an if you say your slots are 98%, then prove that they are.

It seems as if most posters are in agreement that proof is the only way. How can it truly be proved. Is it difficult for us to get our stats/logs? Who sees the audits done by those 3rd party firms? Like Nash said, could the 20,00 be done in fun mode? If so how many of us would have to do it?

[NASHVEGAS]

I PM'ed Max and not sure the PM has been read!!

The excerpt below partially summarizes my thoughts and request. Will hang tight or hit the slots,lol!!

"Of course, the subject thread needs moderating and I realize you may/do not have the time. Still, there may be other solutions but I hope leaving the thread closed is not a final solution although it may be the optimal solution.
Respectfully,
Garry"

[Rusty]

I agree with all of that but just to say am not stating that RTG are rigged or even that their overall returns are any lower than any other software.
I just played a lot of RTG with initial expectation of better things but I have similar views of other software.

Why can't we have slots where the theoretical return defined through the paytable and only the paytable and why should players not know the return of the game they are playing. It is unfair.

My thoughts are a slots reel layout should never change, there should be absolutely no weighting, no probability tables or controls and the theoretical return of the shot should be clearly displayed.
If an operator wishes to change the return then make adjustments to the paytable and clearly state what these are and what the new return is.

There are many reasons this does not happen and one of the lesser ones is design itself.
There is always pressure to make new slots bigger and better.
Higher multipliers more bonus rounds and features etc.
The problem is how can you deliver all this while maintaining a reasonable variance and keep within a specified return.

For example imagine you hit a big win with X10 multiplier.
How long would it take to get back in line with the expected RTP?
Millions of spins so you need a control mechanism.
Otherwise wins would need to be so rare or the bonus round so infrequent that the slot would be boring to play.

There are though ways it can be achieved even if you would need to reign in expectation a little and have a fairly low variance slot.

So there is control within control because you also have the operator able to change the RTP which in turn changes the probability of activation and outcome of bonus rounds.

I have waffled on enough about this now and RTG get a slightly unfair rap because their software is entertaining and they are really no worse offenders than any other software supplier in my view - unfortunately they can also be an incredibly frustrating experience when your returns are set low.
The on/off switch is basically a reality it is just much more complex than that.

[Rusty]

I PM'ed Max and not sure the PM has been read!!

The excerpt below partially summarizes my thoughts and request. Will hang tight or hit the slots,lol!!

"Of course, the subject thread needs moderating and I realize you may/do not have the time. Still, there may be other solutions but I hope leaving the thread closed is not a final solution although it may be the optimal solution.
Respectfully,
Garry"

Yeah I can understand his predicament.
You want to close the thread to stop personal abuse and attacks (agree) but you don't want to stifle discussion.
Anyway here we are.

[slotheadlizard]

I agree with all of that but just to say am not stating that RTG are rigged or even that their overall returns are any lower than any other software.
I just played a lot of RTG with initial expectation of better things but I have similar views of other software.

Why can't we have slots where the theoretical return defined through the paytable and only the paytable and why should players not know the return of the game they are playing. It is unfair.

My thoughts are a slots reel layout should never change, there should be absolutely no weighting, no probability tables or controls and the theoretical return of the shot should be clearly displayed.
If an operator wishes to change the return then make adjustments to the paytable and clearly state what these are and what the new return is.

There are many reasons this does not happen and one of the lesser ones is design itself.
There is always pressure to make new slots bigger and better.
Higher multipliers more bonus rounds and features etc.
The problem is how can you deliver all this while maintaining a reasonable variance and keep within a specified return.

For example imagine you hit a big win with X10 multiplier.
How long would it take to get back in line with the expected RTP?
Millions of spins so you need a control mechanism.
Otherwise wins would need to be so rare or the bonus round so infrequent that the slot would be boring to play.

There are though ways it can be achieved even if you would need to reign in expectation a little and have a fairly low variance slot.

So there is control within control because you also have the operator able to change the RTP which in turn changes the probability of activation and outcome of bonus rounds.

I have waffled on enough about this now and RTG get a slightly unfair rap because their software is entertaining and they are really no worse offenders than any other software supplier in my view - unfortunately they can also be an incredibly frustrating experience when your returns are set low.
The on/off switch is basically a reality it is just much more complex than that.

Thanks Rusty, I know you never said RTG was rigged, or any others for that matter. I should have asked how we as players can get a better understanding of what those stated slot stats actually mean.

I'm the last person who would want to give RTG a bad rap, its just who we happened to be discussing. They remain my fave. software. Thanks for all of your help in this matter, as well as everyone else who weighed in with views and opinions. All of them matter. Its just a filtering process.

[big_mac]

As I said in the other thread, if a casino wanted to cheat then they could do it and you would not know (even one million spins wouldn't show anything significant).

But, if they are cheating on a larger scale, then it would be much easier to spot amongst a group of people rather than just one.
And you would never know if lots of people had a complaint if nobody actually started it off; so I think that the posts moaning about bad slots payouts are useful as they allow us to see if a trend is emerging. And people can always ignore them (I usually do, sorry!).

I didn't even know that slots were supposed to behave randomly - they never have in the UK as far as I know. The argument goes, I think, that the payout is actually random, even if the reels are not.

If you can change the payout percentage without changing the win payouts, then it must be the case that the reels are not behaving entirely randomly.

While that may be acceptable (to some people), it would concern me that the system also allows other forms of manipulation against the player.
As an example the games could be configured to make lots of very small payouts, but very few large ones. This would keep the payout percentage high, but make it nearly impossible to actually come out with a win.

It's been a few years since I spoke to somebody who worked with slot machines in the uk, but he told me that it was standard practice to constantly adjust the way the machines played (from a remote computer) in order to maximise their takings.

But, as I said before, I wouldn't actually be completely sure that they are random without seeing the code myself; there are ways around just about every method of detection that you can think of!

[casinojack]

I have often wondered why this is not done in the online world, yet Vegas this is a huge marketing.

Think if this, next time you see a slots bonus with a smaller rollover, and bigger %, you now know why. With a 97 -97.5% payout, has to be much less aggressive,then say if you have them set as low as 88%.

I will go on record here to say this will change drastically in the coming months, you heard it here first!