RTG still rocks!

[Rusty]

Very surprised at the nature of John Steeds comments.
I think he is right about the reason the OP has been receiving so much attention though.

We all have our own personal views and beliefs but we generally come to respect the views of other long standing members even if we do not agree with them because we can see how genuine they are in those beliefs.
As such their opinions, claims and statements are given more credence because they have earned a little respect by proving over time they operate in the same way.
A statement in the absolute obvious but sometimes we can not see the wood for the trees.

The OP should understand you have to earn the trust and respect of a forum before you can expect them to take every word you say as gospel.
Making snide comments and being confrontational with your First few posts, especially with a subject as controversial as this, is not smart.
To then try and take the moral high ground is just plain hypocritical.

Another problem is that the OP seems to be coming into the discussion a couple of Years too late.
Some things they consider to be conspiracy theory have long been established as true and if they take a little time to read the forum before jumping in they will see many threads pertaining to this fact.

The only debate is how fair software is that can have the theoretical return changed without the players knowledge.
I include all software here too not just RTG.

It has been common practice for Years to have slots operate in the way they do and it is much the same as land based slots.
They are not rigged, they retain a random element but they are open - and indeed designed - to have a control element that can be manipulated to alter return.
This is quite a problem for the player of remote slots because they can be manipulated in real time.
Not only this but there is basically no regulation to keep greedy operators/software in check.

Think of it this way.
You are selling a product for 85c and selling 1000 a Week = $850
what you want to know as a business man is what will happen to your sales if you charge 90c per Week.
Now as long as you sell more than 945 units you will be making more profit (945*90c = $850.5) but you have decreased your customer base.

The beauty of being an online slot operator is that you charge more (sometimes much more/say 85% RTP) for your product without the customer even realising.
What happens if your customers get a sniff something is wrong?
Simple set the price of your product back to the price it was selling well at.
It's a win win situation for the Casino and software provider.

The reason I go into such analogies is because it pains me to see such ill thought out arguments about why slots are not weighted or payouts are maintained at 97%
It is moronic actually and that is why the argument if you don't like don't play also hits a snag.

I agree with it to a point but the problem is you never quite know what you are going to be playing. 99% slots 85% slots?
I like to gamble but I like to know the odds - I don't like to gamble with my gamble.

Final observation. (phew - sorry - again)

Because a decent size of the total return is made up from feature wins then this is the most obvious place to look for changes in the return.
If this is the case here are a few things you should look for.

You should find that when you are playing the lower return versions that scatter symbols appear much less often and when they do (because of how the software is manipulated) they will probably appear on the first Two reels without a trigger( This gives the illusion that you were close) or the final Two reels.

You should also find that when you do trigger bonus rounds they pay from below expectation to average. (this should tie in with fewer features)

Finally you should also find that retriggers become very unlikely.

That is all.

[funeral979]

***

Um, yeah... well, I can clearly see tons of posts written by you that are actual PROOF that those theories aren't fine by your admissions. Keep backpedaling all you want.



The amount of times that you use the 'ol - gathering-up names (as a smokescreen) while rounding-up even more cavalry by throwing "Thanked" posts (used as a weapon... not in good spirit) at them in plain view, and then to take a step back from all the turmoil you initially launched, I'm shocked that your word means anything. No "theory" on that one, because there's years of proof to support how you aren't okay with people's "theories". Data, it's all there in the sites memory banks. Were you an affiliate, or not... because there are tons of contradicting posts submitted by none other than you.



Funny that you started all of this by launching into others, because they weren't happy that another member had won (even though he really started it by rubbing their noses in it). Gee, I can think back to the WinnerScreenshots thread not long ago - when you stooped-down from your pedestal that only deals with industry issues because you couldn't be bothered with the WinnerScreenshots thread - and after someone posted a screen-shot of their win at a PlayTech site, you went on your "you'll be lucky if you get paid" wake-up call. Nice...



Odd how one who boasts about her strength by tackling the issues everyone else dare not deal with, can never do it by herself. Always campaigning. ALWAYS campaigning...



Oh yeah, just my 2 cents





Steed


***

Sorry to derail but I could not have said it better myself. I think this is one of the most relevant posts I have seen in quite some time. Senior posters bullying/belittling others simply for attention........and to increase each others reputation points. This seriously takes away from the diversity of the forum....and one of the reasons I don't post very often. If someone spun a slot 10 times and didn't get a win, and they cry conspiracy theoery, SO WHAT? MORE POWER TO THEM! If anything its a form of therapy for them. Sorry for the rant but some people need to get off their soapboxes

[Pinababy69]

Outstanding post as usual Rusty.

I may not always agree 100% with your views on this stuff...but I do respect your knowledge of how it all works, and your passion for fairness. Like I've said before, we are definitely on the same side, just go about things a little bit different sometimes. I wish I had the knowledge that you do about these things...but I don't, so thank you for once again trying to explain it in layman's terms. I like your analogies.

The only debate is how fair software is that can have the theoretical return changed without the players knowledge.
I include all software here too not just RTG.

I agree with it to a point but the problem is you never quite know what you are going to be playing. 99% slots 85% slots?

I like to gamble but I like to know the odds - I don't like to gamble with my gamble.

Final observation. (phew - sorry - again)

Because a decent size of the total return is made up from feature wins then this is the most obvious place to look for changes in the return.
If this is the case here are a few things you should look for.

You should find that when you are playing the lower return versions that scatter symbols appear much less often and when they do (because of how the software is manipulated) they will probably appear on the first Two reels without a trigger( This gives the illusion that you were close) or the final Two reels.

You should also find that when you do trigger bonus rounds they pay from below expectation to average. (this should tie in with fewer features)

Finally you should also find that retriggers become very unlikely.

That is all.

I highlighted the above part because that's really what it comes down to for me. It's a given that there are three payout percentages for RTG slots...but as you stated, how do you know on any given day which payout you're getting? And you have somewhat explained how reel manipulation could figure into that as well ie. frequency of bonus rounds, etc.

So I guess my last question for you would be......would a change from 97% or higher down to say 91 or 92%, produce a "noticeable" difference for the average player? Or would the more noticeable changes come solely through reel manipulation ie. removal of symbols, etc? Okay, a two part question.

Sadly, again as you already stated.....without some REAL form of regulation, so much of this is just up in the air. I still think playlogs would be a start. If enough data were gathered, surely it would show something?

[Pinababy69]

Sorry to derail but I could not have said it better myself. I think this is one of the most relevant posts I have seen in quite some time. Senior posters bullying/belittling others simply for attention........and to increase each others reputation points. This seriously takes away from the diversity of the forum....and one of the reasons I don't post very often. If someone spun a slot 10 times and didn't get a win, and they cry conspiracy theoery, SO WHAT? MORE POWER TO THEM! If anything its a form of therapy for them. Sorry for the rant but some people need to get off their soapboxes

Sorry, but if you spin a slot 10 times and lose, and feel the need to come here and whine about it.....I hardly think I'm the one with the problem. And it would be a post like that, which would "dilute" the effectiveness of the forum. I can see a newbie coming here, starting a thread entitled "Inetbet are Crooks", and making a post saying they deposited $10, took ten $1 spins and lost....and then crying rigged. Yeah, very effective and oh so fair to the casino...right?

Funny how people who have no idea make claims like the one above...that I abuse the thanking system. That's pretty laughable, seeing as at least two years ago or more, I actually told Bryan that I thought the whole thing should be removed from the forum....period. I hated it then, and I hate it now. Let people be judged on their posts alone..how's that? Works for me.

Wouldn't it be alot easier for all you bitter people who hate me so much to start a Social Group? You can call it whatever you like......Evil Bitch Pinababy Haters Club. Feel free, knock yourselves out.

And now....can we get back to the topic of the thread?

[GGW Laurie]

Tooooooo many fine posters at odds over a thread just isnt worth it imo, but then again thats what makes for a great debate......................so what are we debating again ?...............laurie

[Rusty]

Outstanding post as usual Rusty.

I may not always agree 100% with your views on this stuff...but I do respect your knowledge of how it all works, and your passion for fairness. Like I've said before, we are definitely on the same side, just go about things a little bit different sometimes. I wish I had the knowledge that you do about these things...but I don't, so thank you for once again trying to explain it in layman's terms. I like your analogies.



I highlighted the above part because that's really what it comes down to for me. It's a given that there are three payout percentages for RTG slots...but as you stated, how do you know on any given day which payout you're getting? And you have somewhat explained how reel manipulation could figure into that as well ie. frequency of bonus rounds, etc.

So I guess my last question for you would be......would a change from 97% or higher down to say 91 or 92%, produce a "noticeable" difference for the average player? Or would the more noticeable changes come solely through reel manipulation ie. removal of symbols, etc? Okay, a two part question.

Sadly, again as you already stated.....without some REAL form of regulation, so much of this is just up in the air. I still think playlogs would be a start. If enough data were gathered, surely it would show something?

Well I maintain that playlogs do indeed show something. manufactured streaks.
If anyone wants to prove this here is what to do.
Take One Million game samples of the same slot. (flat betting)
Plot a graph for return percentage (say every 200 spins for high definition)
Plot a graph for feature frequency.
Plot a graph for retrigger frequency.
Plot a graph for feature return (multiple bet)

Now find out what the reel layout is of that slot for 97% return version.
Write a small program that emulates 1 million spins with a genuine RNG.
Plot the same graphs.
Overlap the graphs and check for obvious discrepancies.

That is what it takes to emphatically prove it but who has the time or resources to do that?
You could do it with a smaller sample size say 20,000 spins or even smaller if you had enough samples.
Would there be discrepancies between the Two sample types?
You bet your sweet ass there would!
but I think we can just use common sense and apply the knowledge we already have about how the software operates to understand this.

We certainly do not agree with each other 100% (we are disagreeing now ) but personally I do not believe the criticisms of you here are valid.
Still everyone sees things differently and who said we all have to get along and have the same opinions of each other?

I have had plenty of arguments here - some pretty heated and sometimes they naturally become personal in the heat of battle but ultimately they are just opinions even if the language can become emotive.
That is what the mods are for me thinks.

As for the comments about the use of the Thanks button I am sure we all use it differently.
It seems petty to worry about who thanks who and why and when.

[NASHVEGAS]

This is quite a problem for the player of remote slots because they can be manipulated in real time.Not only this but there is basically no regulation to keep greedy operators/software in check.

"REAL TIME" ,if true I would not be shocked. A little different but similar take that I am convinced of is software is correlated (if,then) or better said, we are not just dealing with a quasi-random number generator.

That said, the business model of onlines somehow still has given me ample opportunity to end up on the positive side of expectation. I emphasize "opportunity" which is not the equivalent of my actual results as they relate to expectation. The model!!

Regulation, better left for another time but the term is definitely misconstrued imho.

[Pinababy69]

Tooooooo many fine posters at odds over a thread just isnt worth it imo, but then again thats what makes for a great debate......................so what are we debating again ?...............laurie

Laurie, if that's what floats their boat...more power to them. Anyone who really knows me, knows that I couldn't give a rat's ass what anyone thinks of me....with the exception of those people whose opinions I actually respect. I just think it would be better if they all gathered in one spot, rather than disrupt a decent thread/discussion.

Well I maintain that playlogs do indeed show something. manufactured streaks.
If anyone wants to prove this here is what to do.
Take One Million game samples of the same slot. (flat betting)
Plot a graph for return percentage (say every 200 spins for high definition)
Plot a graph for feature frequency.
Plot a graph for retrigger frequency.
Plot a graph for feature return (multiple bet)

Now find out what the reel layout is of that slot for 97% return version.
Write a small program that emulates 1 million spins with a genuine RNG.
Plot the same graphs.
Overlap the graphs and check for obvious discrepancies.

That is what it takes to emphatically prove it but who has the time or resources to do that?
You could do it with a smaller sample size say 20,000 spins or even smaller if you had enough samples.
Would there be discrepancies between the Two sample types?
You bet your sweet ass there would!
but I think we can just use common sense and apply the knowledge we already have about how the software operates to understand this.

We certainly do not agree with each other 100% (we are disagreeing now ) but personally I do not believe the criticisms of you here are valid.
Still everyone sees things differently and who said we all have to get along and have the same opinions of each other?

I have had plenty of arguments here - some pretty heated and sometimes they naturally become personal in the heat of battle but ultimately they are just opinions even if the language can become emotive.
That is what the mods are for me thinks.

As for the comments about the use of the Thanks button I am sure we all use it differently.
It seems petty to worry about who thanks who and why and when.

Re: plotting the graphs....now that's interesting Rusty. Given most casinos assertion that fun mode and real mode are the same....would it work in fun mode...or do you believe that fun play doesn't run off the same RNG? Would the 1M spins have to be taken all in one continuous session...or could it be spead out over various sessions? And I'm assuming all on one game right?

A sample of 20K spins is definitely doable IMO, and you've given me something to think about, dependent on the detailed logistics of it. I'm afraid I'd be calling for help when it came to "plotting" time though, lol. If it's any more difficult than typing a document in MS Word, I'm out of my league. But I like the sounds of it, and would love to see some results.

Thanks for the vote of confidence....but no worries. All that other shit is irrelevant, to say the least.

[Pinababy69]

"REAL TIME" ,if true I would not shocked. A little different but similar take that I am convinced of is software is correlated (if,then) or better said, we are not just dealing with a quasi-random number generator.

That said, the business model of onlines somehow still has given me ample opportunity to end up on the positive side of expectation. I emphasize "opportunity" which is not the equivalent of my actual results as they relate to expectation. The model!!

Regulation, better left for another time but the term is definitely misconstrued imho.

I missed the part of Rusty's post re: real time manipulation. Changing payouts on a schedule is one thing....but changing them on the fly...now that's a scary thought. You actually believe that mid session, they can actually change the payout to the particular game that you're playing? Or manipulate the game itself?

Positive side of expectation Nash? Ha....that's just the horseshoe you had surgically implanted "up there". Removal can be a bitch I hear.

[maxd]

I see more than one person in this thread behaving badly.

Thread closed.