Gambling Addiction discussion

[JHV]

Originally Posted by slotheadlizard

Welcome back Scooter. I do hope you continue to contribute on the forum. Yours have been my fav. thread to date. That chat is a classic. Even if you chose not to post about your misadventures with "iffy" casino practices, please post. Since you once worked in a casino I'm sure you have some good stories about your dealing days, and what goes on behind closed doors of the casinos. Spin those yarns. You can change the names to protect the innocent

Honestly, the 20 months I worked at a land based casino were the most horrific of my life. And I still probably have some lingering 'scars' from the experience, though it seems a lifetime ago.

Any stories that I'd find interesting to share would be morbidly depressing, as anyone who's worked in a gritty* land based casino can probably imagine. Casinos attract a certain brand of helpless / damaged souls to their jingling lights and sounds and false promises of easy winnings and 'entertainment' - it's 'entertainment' all right, in a far closer way to how amphetamines are 'entertainment', according to the studies I've read on the subject - and the chemicals the RISK / DANGER of the gamble force-release in your brain - it's some twisted, complicated shit where winning has negligible neurological effect (paraphrasing, hopefully correctly)...but the risk of losing, the risk of disaster, that's where the addiction comes from - any 'pleasure' from gambling apparently comes not from the thrill of winning, but the panic of losing.

That's actually not so depressing in itself, but when you see first-hand the damage genuine addiction can inflict on (otherwise) good families and the horrible positions gambling addiction can (occasionally) put people in, it has the potential to shake you to your core to the point where you're questioning life-long beliefs about Politics 101 issues like definition of individual liberty, the role of the state in legislating morality, at what point should government organisations intervene when a parent (or even an individual) appears to be or is clearly spinning out of control, etc.

I realise I'm unintentionally being cryptic, so I'll give one example. A lady who I'm 100% certain was, and would have continued to be a brilliant mother to her kids (were it not for her roulette addiction) just self-destructed in front of my eyes over a period of a few months. Listening to exhausted and frustrated teachers call her every day saying they have to get home to their own kids and would she PLEASE come pick up her kids as school was let out 3 hrs ago - and she'd be stricken with guilt and frantic, but always saying: "Just one more spin, just one more". Ridiculous cliche I know, but when 8 hours after the phone call from the kids' teacher saying he's leaving them in as safe a place as he can at the school alone, she's still saying "just one more spin"....and the kids are sitting alone and unprotected that entire time (probably) every day waiting for her...seeing that firsthand; watching the degeneration from loving mother to horrible sick selfish (this might be unfair - I genuinely believe she had little to no control over her addiction) person so rapidly every day like a horrible soap opera...that was pretty traumatic for me to witness.

Social services ended up taking the kids, I think. As they should. She was an unfit mother due to her sickness. She triple mortgaged the family home and one of the banks inevitably foreclosed not long after. Without her kids, homeless, undoubtedly racked to hell with guilt but unable to request self-exclusion from the premises, I watched her sink into dark depression - she started using drugs, mixing with people no sane person would ever want to mix with - and well, I'll leave the rest to your imagination and say that the worst you can imagine, is probably pretty close to what happened.

Credit to the casino I worked for, to be honest - at their core, they were greedy money-grabbing crafty connected businessmen taking advantage of peoples' stupidity, ignorance (it's stunning how many people don't even understand the concept of house advantage, let alone know the % for the games they're playing - as high as 16% for some games in Australia, just sick) and mental illness (if you call addiction a mental illness, which I think is probably accurate) - but they did try to step in and intervene in this particular case with the mother. But the gambling legislation is complex and complicated when it comes to stuff like this. I think it came down to ONLY she could request exclusion, the casino couldn't just ban her from premises for her own good - I might not have the full details on why she couldn't be excluded, but there were some complexities anyway, and we just had to watch the horror unfold in front of our eyes.

I spoke to her often in the early days trying to really subtly flick the switch in her brain about the choices she was making as they affected her children, but she was just blind to it all. Not out of an 'evil' place, I don't think. She was just blind to everything. Living in a fantasy world, in some respects. Pure, clinical addiction. My sympathy for her reached non-existent levels when she would yell at me for not reminding her to pick up her kids when I'd been reminding her (using VERY strong language at times) for the better part of 6-8 hours. The mentally ill have a remarkable talent for alienating those that would seek to help them - I have the utmost respect for anyone able to put up with the insanity whilst assisting or treating someone suffering from mental illness. I don't have the patience. Once I'd decided she was beyond help, and I was sick of her insane attempts at transferring blame onto me and others for "not reminding her" - I would just coldly crush her if she came to my table (if she was frantically gambling whilst her young kids were sitting alone cold somewhere as night fell - justified abuse on my part, imo - her behaviour had reached despicable levels [this was *just* before social services took the kids, I think]). She disgusted me and probably everyone else - and she became a pretty easy / soft target for those who prey upon such types I guess. They used her up and spat her out - circle of (the dark side of) life.

----

Heh, I rambled on a bit in the end. But yep, the vast majority of my stories would be morbidly depressing like this one. The culture there was...I can't describe it. We were just kids, excited when we got the job, thinking it would be fun, etc. Within months, most of my training group had quit - some were on depression meds, I wanted to quit more than anything in the world but couldn't afford to - so stuck it out for almost two years and tried in vain to block out the depravity and sadness. The back room atmosphere and staff culture was just morbid. Seeing grown men cry uncontrollably after losing I guess their mortgage payments or even more, seeing young girls with hopeless gambling addictions doing things flippantly for cash - things that probably would have horrified them only months earlier.

Working there that long changed me, not in uniquely positive ways. I grew up a lot, saw a lot of things I perhaps wish I hadn't - learned a LOT about the gritty underbelly of society; learned a lot about people and what motivates them and how easily the weak and sick are manipulated; I became a great deal more cynical and a great deal less chirpy and upbeat, etc. I guess a lot of that would be deemed "valuable life experience" by some people - but give me back my naive irrational positivity imo - I didn't need to know what happens to people when they fall ALL the way down. And I definitely didn't need to see it up close, to people I'd formed semi-friendships with through seeing and talking to them every day.

I'm a libertarian. I think Prohibition is just about the most retarded way to deal with a problem. But gambling is tricky. When families are getting torn apart - and one parent's gambling addiction is ruining the lives of those around them (especially if children are involved), I learned with some horror that things have to get PRETTY bad before the state even contemplates intervening. To the best of my knowledge, there are no effective "cures" for addiction - I guess therapy helps, etc - but when someone is that sick, they're not going to get anything out of therapy, even if dragged kicking and screaming to the doctor (which would probably be the only way you'd get most of them there). I'm pretty opinionated and like to think I have answers for almost everything, but on this issue, I'm stumped. You can't ban it - but hell, I saw what happens when it's legalised, and I came very close to getting sold on Prohibition - just WAY too many negatives, so few, if any positives (except for shareholders or point owners - and I guess employment/industry).

But what I saw - when I try to extrapolate that to what surely goes on at the homes of these sad victims. The thoughts make me shiver. I'd see people who were suicidal in public after losing xxx - and knowing they were on their way home to their kids and family...I'm talking about really sick people here. Sick and (at times) violent people.

I have no answers for this issue.

[slotheadlizard]

Once again you have floored me with your response. I was hoping for a few crazy stories about the guy who put down 2,000 on black, or the drunk chic who won't shut up etc. Instead you revealed something ten times better, and for that I am very grateful.

I hope the mods can maybe merge your previous post with the addiction posts in some way since its not about Rome, but should really be read by those seeking help with addiction.

It seems as if you have seen some terrible things first hand. I just watched a show we have in the U.S. called Intervention. It was about women who are addicted to gambling and the consequences of their actions. One stole from her church, one was a prominent news women who took her newborn to all nite poker games, the other just gambled non stop. All of their lives were ruined because of it.

As far as a cure, one went to some treatment facility, it helped her. I think one was prescribed a medication that helps curb the desire to play. I'm curious to see the follow up show to see if it worked or not.

Most of us use gambling as an entertainment outlet, however many of us will see some of the signs displayed in your examples. I myself saw some of those signs and had to really reflect. Though it gets hard at times, I try to put family first and stick to that budget. I have seen families be destroyed by gambling. Good families before they became addicted.

Your story was sad, and I'm guessing just one of hundreds like it throughout the world. However like you, I am against banning gambling, or anything else that takes away free will. Instead I would rather support causes that help the ones that do become addicted with the profits from gambling.

Your response is a prime example of why you should continue to post. I wish you well in whatever you do since you have stopped gambling. You are a great and engaging writer. (maybe you could write a book about your experiences) I'd buy it.

[JHV]

Originally Posted by slotheadlizard

Your story was sad, and I'm guessing just one of hundreds like it throughout the world. However like you, I am against banning gambling, or anything else that takes away free will. Instead I would rather support causes that help the ones that do become addicted with the profits from gambling.

I believe this has to be the optimal approach, yes. From an extremely young age, I've had very strong opinions on the sanctity of individual liberty - but to see what I saw during those 20 months was confronting. I found myself questioning my core political beliefs, and wondering if in fact, the state should not do more (maybe a great deal more) to protect some people from themselves. All I know is that it's a great deal more complex and grey an issue than my First Year Intro to Pol lecturers at uni would have had us believe. I strongly believe that casinos are not taxed heavily enough (actually I feel that way about most of the 'vice' industries) for the widespread damage to society they facilitate - and government (taxpayers) are left with the bill whilst casino owners get filthy rich with [in Australia] monopoly licenses acquired almost certainly NOT through any form of transparent process, of that I am certain.

God knows I could have used an intervention at times this year. With my background, there was almost a ludicrous irony in my house edge gambling. As retarded as it sounds, there might also have been a slight stubborn streak to it - where it seemed that, the more people would lecture me on stopping the madness, the more I would gamble in response, adopting a somewhat childish or brattish attitude of "I freaking worked hard to make this money. If I want to burn it on stupidity, by God, I will. And good luck attempting to stop me." - or something silly like that.

But overall my shockingly wasteful dumping of late was more of a side-effect caused by other, more complex issues - or maybe not so complex. Pure, unadulterated boredom is a force more powerful than I could have ever guessed at prior to this year.

And thinking back about occasional times I would deal to VIP or High Rollers Lounge in those painful months as a croupier, I genuinely believe the people there gambling ridiculous sums were (for the most part) just bored out of their mind. Very few ever appeared to be having much genuine 'fun' - I think for most, it was just a desperate attempt at distraction. And I can sympathise with that on a personal level.

----

The writing thing...I enjoy writing but, apart from completing an entertaining (but completely useless) Arts degree at uni (and the associated million required essays), I haven't ever studied writing in any way, shape or form. And although I suspect I'd likely enjoy some form of creative writing course or some platform to build some technical skills, the truth of the matter is I'm so lazy of late it's *almost* embarrassing. And I've been a geek / workaholic my entire life. This year is like Reverse Bizarro World for me.

People (well, my Mum and Aunt) are telling me I should write though, and for want of any other options, I probably will attempt some serious writing at some point. I actually have a extremely unique life story that might be worth jabbering about at some point in the future - that would probably be genuinely compelling reading. But writing a biography at 28 surely has to be as ludicrous as it sounds - also I haven't really done anything noteworthy but laugh at the endless insanity that was my entire world until I ran away at 14 to attend my first ever year of school. (my parents were hilarious religious nuts of the 'batshit crazy' variety, and that's me being a little coy and even a little kind in my description).

I wanna attempt fiction - but I'd have to go back to school to study writing before even making a laughable first attempt. And well, we're going around in circles. It would be really hot if talented writers could find their way to my flat and teach me at random times of my choosing. Pretty selfish and lazy of them not to, imo. I'm not sure I like this established and widely accepted business model of forcing students into the tortuously repetitive hassle of routine showering, wearing freshly laundered clothes, commuting, socialising and studying together in a distant location (distant = > 100m away). I just can't see anyone signing up for that - the whole thing reeks of 'effort'.

I'm tempted to just copycat Hunter S. Thompson's MO. At best, I might produce something worth reading. At worst, I'll probably have an adventure or two - I just hope the 'adventures' don't require much effort. That would almost certainly ruin them.

[same_old]

Originally Posted by JHV

I believe this has to be the optimal approach, yes. From an extremely young age, I've had very strong opinions on the sanctity of individual liberty - but to see what I saw during those 20 months was confronting. I found myself questioning my core political beliefs, and wondering if in fact, the state should not do more (maybe a great deal more) to protect some people from themselves. All I know is that it's a great deal more complex and grey an issue than my First Year Intro to Pol lecturers at uni would have had us believe. I strongly believe that casinos are not taxed heavily enough (actually I feel that way about most of the 'vice' industries) for the widespread damage to society they facilitate - and government (taxpayers) are left with the bill whilst casino owners get filthy rich with [in Australia] monopoly licenses acquired almost certainly NOT through any form of transparent process, of that I am certain.

God knows I could have used an intervention at times this year. With my background, there was almost a ludicrous irony in my house edge gambling. As retarded as it sounds, there might also have been a slight stubborn streak to it - where it seemed that, the more people would lecture me on stopping the madness, the more I would gamble in response, adopting a somewhat childish or brattish attitude of "I freaking worked hard to make this money. If I want to burn it on stupidity, by God, I will. And good luck attempting to stop me." - or something silly like that.

But overall my shockingly wasteful dumping of late was more of a side-effect caused by other, more complex issues - or maybe not so complex. Pure, unadulterated boredom is a force more powerful than I could have ever guessed at prior to this year.

And thinking back about occasional times I would deal to VIP or High Rollers Lounge in those painful months as a croupier, I genuinely believe the people there gambling ridiculous sums were (for the most part) just bored out of their mind. Very few ever appeared to be having much genuine 'fun' - I think for most, it was just a desperate attempt at distraction. And I can sympathise with that on a personal level.

----

The writing thing...I enjoy writing but, apart from completing an entertaining (but completely useless) Arts degree at uni (and the associated million required essays), I haven't ever studied writing in any way, shape or form. And although I suspect I'd likely enjoy some form of creative writing course or some platform to build some technical skills, the truth of the matter is I'm so lazy of late it's *almost* embarrassing. And I've been a geek / workaholic my entire life. This year is like Reverse Bizarro World for me.

People (well, my Mum and Aunt) are telling me I should write though, and for want of any other options, I probably will attempt some serious writing at some point. I actually have a extremely unique life story that might be worth jabbering about at some point in the future - that would probably be genuinely compelling reading. But writing a biography at 28 surely has to be as ludicrous as it sounds - also I haven't really done anything noteworthy but laugh at the endless insanity that was my entire world until I ran away at 14 to attend my first ever year of school. (my parents were hilarious religious nuts of the 'batshit crazy' variety, and that's me being a little coy and even a little kind in my description).

I wanna attempt fiction - but I'd have to go back to school to study writing before even making a laughable first attempt. And well, we're going around in circles. It would be really hot if talented writers could find their way to my flat and teach me at random times of my choosing. Pretty selfish and lazy of them not to, imo. I'm not sure I like this established and widely accepted business model of forcing students into the tortuously repetitive hassle of routine showering, wearing freshly laundered clothes, commuting, socialising and studying together in a distant location (distant = > 100m away). I just can't see anyone signing up for that - the whole thing reeks of 'effort'.

I'm tempted to just copycat Hunter S. Thompson's MO. At best, I might produce something worth reading. At worst, I'll probably have an adventure or two - I just hope the 'adventures' don't require much effort. That would almost certainly ruin them.

What casino was this JHV? was this in Sydney or Melbourne?, I haave many friends that worked at the caisno in Sydney with exact same stories as yourself.

really great posts by you as well, hope you do stick around for a while and post things like this often.
Your post really hit home and thanks for that.

[JHV]

Jupiters - Gold Coast. I still can't go in without mild feelings of Post Traumatic Stress or something - it's weird.

I got dragged in to play poker by a drunk friend an Xmas or 2 ago. I noticed a former workmate standing behind empty blackjack table. For 20 months, we spoke a few times a day on breaks and he was probably one of my 'best' friends at work, I guess (we were on same shifts and both smokers). I head over to say G'day. He doesn't know who I am. I think he's Avin a Larf for a painfully long time until it just registers - he doesn't know who I am.

I say Hi to a few other people I knew well from my time there. They're just dead to the world. No flicker of recognition. I was slightly drunk and wondering if I was in Twilight Zone.

I swear I thought I was just imagining this shit till I asked the poker table - and one dude is like "of course they're all zombies. only a zombie could survive working in this place every day".

And I realised he was probably right. You'd have to shut off something that makes you human, I think....to last there a decade, I mean. I don't know how I did 20 months. Just thinking about it makes me shiver. People there have done 15 years and shit - I can't comprehend how mentally strong (or cold / dead emotionally) you'd have to be to last that long.

[slotheadlizard]

Originally Posted by JHV

I believe this has to be the optimal approach, yes. From an extremely young age, I've had very strong opinions on the sanctity of individual liberty - but to see what I saw during those 20 months was confronting. I found myself questioning my core political beliefs, and wondering if in fact, the state should not do more (maybe a great deal more) to protect some people from themselves. All I know is that it's a great deal more complex and grey an issue than my First Year Intro to Pol lecturers at uni would have had us believe. I strongly believe that casinos are not taxed heavily enough (actually I feel that way about most of the 'vice' industries) for the widespread damage to society they facilitate - and government (taxpayers) are left with the bill whilst casino owners get filthy rich with [in Australia] monopoly licenses acquired almost certainly NOT through any form of transparent process, of that I am certain.

God knows I could have used an intervention at times this year. With my background, there was almost a ludicrous irony in my house edge gambling. As retarded as it sounds, there might also have been a slight stubborn streak to it - where it seemed that, the more people would lecture me on stopping the madness, the more I would gamble in response, adopting a somewhat childish or brattish attitude of "I freaking worked hard to make this money. If I want to burn it on stupidity, by God, I will. And good luck attempting to stop me." - or something silly like that.

But overall my shockingly wasteful dumping of late was more of a side-effect caused by other, more complex issues - or maybe not so complex. Pure, unadulterated boredom is a force more powerful than I could have ever guessed at prior to this year.

And thinking back about occasional times I would deal to VIP or High Rollers Lounge in those painful months as a croupier, I genuinely believe the people there gambling ridiculous sums were (for the most part) just bored out of their mind. Very few ever appeared to be having much genuine 'fun' - I think for most, it was just a desperate attempt at distraction. And I can sympathise with that on a personal level.

----

The writing thing...I enjoy writing but, apart from completing an entertaining (but completely useless) Arts degree at uni (and the associated million required essays), I haven't ever studied writing in any way, shape or form. And although I suspect I'd likely enjoy some form of creative writing course or some platform to build some technical skills, the truth of the matter is I'm so lazy of late it's *almost* embarrassing. And I've been a geek / workaholic my entire life. This year is like Reverse Bizarro World for me.

People (well, my Mum and Aunt) are telling me I should write though, and for want of any other options, I probably will attempt some serious writing at some point. I actually have a extremely unique life story that might be worth jabbering about at some point in the future - that would probably be genuinely compelling reading. But writing a biography at 28 surely has to be as ludicrous as it sounds - also I haven't really done anything noteworthy but laugh at the endless insanity that was my entire world until I ran away at 14 to attend my first ever year of school. (my parents were hilarious religious nuts of the 'batshit crazy' variety, and that's me being a little coy and even a little kind in my description).

I wanna attempt fiction - but I'd have to go back to school to study writing before even making a laughable first attempt. And well, we're going around in circles. It would be really hot if talented writers could find their way to my flat and teach me at random times of my choosing. Pretty selfish and lazy of them not to, imo. I'm not sure I like this established and widely accepted business model of forcing students into the tortuously repetitive hassle of routine showering, wearing freshly laundered clothes, commuting, socialising and studying together in a distant location (distant = > 100m away). I just can't see anyone signing up for that - the whole thing reeks of 'effort'.

I'm tempted to just copycat Hunter S. Thompson's MO. At best, I might produce something worth reading. At worst, I'll probably have an adventure or two - I just hope the 'adventures' don't require much effort. That would almost certainly ruin them.

Thanks for your reply. Ok, maybe you are not ready for that great first novel, but you are a good writer weather you realise it or not. I'm a reader, and love to be in fiction all of the time.

As far as writing a biopic piece at 28, many great writers have done some of their best work at a very young age. I actually don't think it has so much to do with age as it does substance. A good story is a good story. Besides who said it had to be a biography. I see three of four topics in just this post alone-early run away, crazy religious bible thumping parents, useless (in you opinion) art degree, etc. I bet if you just journalized your previous posts you would have 50 pages, lol. So maybe one day

Not to get all parenty on you but you may want to be a little more proactive with your aspirations. I don't think John le Carrr'e will be knocking on your door anytime soon, unless of course he is a CM member.

[lauriejim]

WOW!!!!!!!! you blew me away with that JHV, best read in a long time imo!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....................laurie

[slotheadlizard]

Originally Posted by lauriejim

WOW!!!!!!!! you blew me away with that JHV, best read in a long time imo!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....................laurie

I just can't stop thinking about that mother. Not so much her as a person, but the whole dilemma as a hit home metaphor. I had never really considered how much control the casinos really have over people. Mainly the fact that it is so intentional by the industry.

For some reason I play a lot more reasonably online than at a B&M. I'm always skeptical about the dodgy unseen forces behind them. In person though, I think hey if I win I'll certainly get paid right away so I dump loads of cash into them. I saw some of myself in his example, and didn't like it. I'm gonna focus on responsible gaming at the B&Ms, and only go 3 or 4 times per year. I use to frequent maybe once a week or so.

Online though I play with a strict budget to a certain card or wallet, when its gone oh well. Plus forums, and free mode curb the desire a lot.

[JHV]

Originally Posted by slotheadlizard

Not to get all parenty on you but you may want to be a little more proactive with your aspirations. I don't think John le Carrr'e will be knocking on your door anytime soon, unless of course he is a CM member.

Sigh. Dreams dashed. I love John le Carre. Picked up "The Spy Who Came In From The Cold" bored out of my mind at some airport after missing flight. Think I finished every le Carre novel by the following fortnight. None really matched his first - but that guy can morph prose and dialogue and plot like few living authors can, absolute genius.

It's a source of depression to me that some of the world's most successful authors are, well, crappy writers. I don't know what's going on with Jeffrey Archer after he got out of gaol, but if he wrote his last novel, I'll run naked from Bangkok to the Cambodian border. Some teenage hack penned that piece of tripe and Archer stamped his name on it. I'm not saying 'Kane & Abel' or 'Honour Among Theives' are masterpieces, but I genuinely believe I could - at this moment - write a better novel than 'his' last bestseller.

I won't get started on Dan Brown. Ridiculous that the most successful novel in history (if we discount the Bible as [incredibly crappy] fiction) was written by such a hack. I weep for the world, the world that went nuts over that pathetic excuse for a novel.

[Jasminebed]

My best friend from high school, Tanya Huff, went on to become a successful novelist, but she worked hard to get there. Joined writer's groups, attended fan conventions, learnt to write "spec" scripts for Hollywood, etc. etc. It was not until the advance for her third novel, nevermind the short fiction she published, that she acheived the financial freedom to just write, and even then, her partner helped with household income.

She's doing very well these days however. Those familiar with the television series Blood Ties will know her characters; she's also worked as creative consultant on some of the scripts.

You can even find me as a minor thief character in the novel Sing the Four Quarters!

I wish you well Scooter. The only real way to write is to write, but I think joining authors' groups are a very useful tool for those who are serious about their writing.

BTW, my ex-husband was an award winning short fiction author, and even got a Canada Council grant that allowed him six months of living in poverty to pursue his dream. He failed to achieve financial success, but my daughter tells me he is still writing.