Gambling Addiction discussion

[slotheadlizard]

Oh please DON'T put yourself out!! Seriously! I was just planning on tearing their 'arguments' apart lol

Hope you get better soon. I've had surgery twice and got unlimited (I think?) morphine twice. Both times, I knew God loved me. Or that doctors freak out when you scream for "MORE MORPHINE STAT!!!!" - it's probably 50/50. My point is, I hope you have morphine.

Whilst I do not disagree with anything you say about expenditure, I (respectfully) believe you have completely missed the obvious point I was making - specifically, that addicts and gamblers are not historically known for being objective about their behaviour. This makes them an unreliable source when you're looking into problem gambling.

1. "Do you have a problem?"

"No."

2. "Do you have a problem?"

"No."

(multiply by 20,000 times....)

"Our study has shown that 0.00% of adults have a gambling problem. This result has a 98% confidence interval with +/- 0.02 margin for error."

I envy, seriously seriously envy, anyone that cannot see this hilariously common-sense point. As it means you have never struggled with addiction or vice or behavioral problems of any kind. You lucky saints...

Though you may not agree with the results of some surveys, and that's your choice, I don't think this particular example of your questions are an accurate portrayal of questions.

I've been in research for 11 years, and have found that when questions are on an anonymous basis (through whatever method) people seem to be more honest in their replies.

Also, surveys that are trying to come up with accurate statistics don't have questions that are so "black and white", and may not be designed for the subject to draw their own conclusions.

1. Do you have a gambling problem?

To conclude this, the question may be, How many times per week do you gamble? Have you ever skipped work to gamble? Have you ever stolen funds to gamble? etc, etc, etc.

[JHV]

Have you ever skipped work to gamble? Have you ever stolen funds to gamble? etc, etc, etc.

Someone responding to such a survey would never see through such craftily disguised subterfuge.

Addicts of any kind LOVE to admit they have a problem. They are well-known for being objective and rational about their activities and have rarely been found to be in any form of denial whatsoever.

[dominique]

What subterfuge?

And if addicts love to admit they have a problem, why do they hide booze bottles all over the house and why is it supposed to be such a big deal at alcoholics anonymous to get up and say: I am an alcoholic"?

And how come you know everything better than slotheadlizard who has been in research for 11 years or Jasmine who went through the trouble of actually talking to people in the field?

I was looking forward to a constructive thread about problem gambling. It is doubtlessly an issue, and an important one to know the FACTS about.

[JHV]

What subterfuge?

And if addicts love to admit they have a problem, why do they hide booze bottles all over the house and why is it supposed to be such a big deal at alcoholics anonymous to get up and say: I am an alcoholic"?

Apologies for confusion. I was lazy and reverted to the lowest form of wit.

But you make the same point as I was making with my sarcasm.

[DiamondGeezer]

Um, no. lol.

Trust me, I was not "lucky" to make $1mil playing poker. I was actually extremely unlucky not to make $3mil during that time and can prove that with graphs and statistical evidence. Not that I care too much, as evidence by my *almost* successful demolition of that mil in the last few months on house edge.

Many wagers are neutral or +EV. Some are HUGELY +EV. Like when my friends play me for $1000 Monopoly games on pogo.com

You certainly know your stuff JHV, IMO at least

Spearmaster was making the point that a 50/50 or +EV bet is not gambling but I would not completely agree with that. The relationship between +EV, bankroll and variance is a complex one. Sometimes like with a big VP jackpot it can be extremely hard to convert a +EV situation into cash. Also in poker where the +EV is hard to measure it can be very hard to strike a balance. Even if you are strongly +EV variance can do weird things to you and upset your balance and order.

Talking of which - does that demolition remark mean what I think it means? I hope it doesn't or at least you have come to terms with it. You sound like you have a lot of resiliance in general anyway .

[JHV]

You certainly know your stuff JHV, IMO at least

Spearmaster was making the point that a 50/50 or +EV bet is not gambling but I would not completely agree with that. The relationship between +EV, bankroll and variance is a complex one. Sometimes like with a big VP jackpot it can be extremely hard to convert a +EV situation into cash. Also in poker where the +EV is hard to measure it can be very hard to strike a balance. Even if you are strongly +EV variance can do weird things to you and upset your balance and order.

Talking of which - does that demolition remark mean what I think it means? I hope it doesn't or at least you have come to terms with it. You sound like you have a lot of resiliance in general anyway .

I argue a wager where you have a 99.99% chance of winning and 00.01% chance of losing is still a gamble - just a VERY good gamble.

Life is a gamble. Most people don't realise every day, they probably do (rough guess) 20-50 things that have element of serious risk - low statistical probability, but possibly devastating impact when "unlucky". I kind of see the world through these geeky eyes I guess, everything I'm doing I'm weighing up the odds or betting line or probabilities or whatever (as best as I am able to judge anyway - sometimes I'd be hilariously incorrect on my guesses, but apart from some clear wagers where number of variables are low and exact values known, etc, every wager is a 'guess' - professional gamblers will win more if their 'guesses' are more correct, more often.

I have some talents in some things but I suck at 'life' in many ways. This is partly because I kinda have a flippant attitude towards it. I used to be the biggest "life-nit" (risk averse, price conscious, bankroll aware, etc) in the world as I kid, I think. This hampered my ability in poker for many years - you need to become adjusted to the simple fact that swings and the wild variance ride will be crazy and insane, and you have to psychologically prepare yourself for that and trust your "guesses" 100% - if you blink, or at least if you blink often, someone like me will run roughshod over you. In a lot of ways, the current nature of online MSNL now is a game of Blind Man's Bluff - he who blinks first loses. Or he who cracks first mentally over inability to handle the swings.

I only started doing very well at MSNL mid-last year when I finally got my head around the fact that I'd be winning or losing 50k a day regardless of how well (or poorly) I played. I was able to get my head around this and I didn't blink for a very long time

A cheeky side-effect of being a successful (and therefore psychologically numb to the insane swings) MSNL multi-tabler, is that you become numb to the value of money, in many ways. I would play one of the most brilliant sessions of my life and drop 60k. Or I would play horribly (and know it) and win 30k. Needing to be able to judge your own guess at the expectation of a single play (example: "check-pushing this river for $7000 with air on a bluff will deliver me 105-110% return on average" - CHECK - OPPONENT BET - ALL IN - "oops, wrong that time, next hand"...), fail and instantly move on without any psychological impact - is simply vital. Without this numbness, I don't think you'd have a chance of succeeding in the current nature of insanely aggressive and complex MSNL online games.

Now, the problem with becoming completely and utterly numb to money, is that you don't care if you lose it. You're numb. My numbness was accentuated by another existential crisis kind of thing, where I hit some meaningless financial goals I'd had since I was like 14, and the second I hit those goals, I knew I'd effectively been wasting my life burning midnight oil studying and working insanely hard to achieve what amounted to a fallacy. And I hated myself for it, for conveniently deluding myself into believing those goals were somehow worth the insane effort and sacrifices I had made for so many years.

So I was professionally numb from the insane swings of a year or two at MSNL. And I was unprofessionally numb from the realisation that I'd been retarded my whole life about the money issue, and it's inherent value - which I immediately re-valued / re-priced at 10c on the $ or something

That was dumb, in hindsight - although I really did feel money was close to worthless and kinda still do, in some ways. Cause when I ended some business projects in January 09 which used to take up a lot of my time, I found myself with an insane amount of free time on my hands and no plans or motivation to do much to occupy myself - house edge got involved, 100 other mitigating issues contributed, and before I really thought "oh, maybe there is something or someone that deserves this money a LOT more than these dirty online casinos who keep screwing me unfairly"....most of it was gone.

I am genuinely ok with it. It was dumb, but I still don't really value money so the pain that a lot of people would feel at losing 700-750k over a few months (with a hell of a lot of that on -EV sillyness) simply isn't there for me. I'm more 'disappointed' in myself, because now that I think about it, hell I'd rather walk along a random street and hand 10k blocks to strangers than allow those online casinos (almost all of which screwed me, in some way - with the stark exception of 32Red, who were fantastic). But I don't lose sleep over it or anything, it's just a "bleh, that was misappropriation of funds" type feeling.

I still have a relatively decent amount. And I have some business interests with + cash flow. And I have literally dozens of ideas in my head which I could easily convert to cash flow if I cared to make the effort - which I very strongly do not right now...I've been possessed by a lazy version of myself. It's 'intriguing'. Obviously my new-found laziness is directly linked to my (late) realisation that the mad race to simply acquire as much $ as you could, at the expense of leisure time, relationships, etc...was really stupid and I feel a fool to have committed so many years of my life to that mad race.

I dunno about whether I have 'resilience' (anymore). I certainly did when I was younger and accomplished some amazing things under intense handicaps very much against the odds - but now, I suspect I'm incapable of much really, except to be lazy, drink if I feel like it, read if I feel like it, ramble on forums if I feel like it, sleep if I feel like it...and not much else

No prizes for guessing I'm currently in the "ramble on forums if I feel like it" phase. I believe this will shortly morph into "eat if I feel like it" phase. I have no idea why I would think *anyone* would find that interesting. Should backspace but meh.....

[WagerWitch]

"My numbness was accentuated by another existential crisis kind of thing, where I hit some meaningless financial goals I'd had since I was like 14, and the second I hit those goals, I knew I'd effectively been wasting my life burning midnight oil studying and working insanely hard to achieve what amounted to a fallacy. And I hated myself for it, for conveniently deluding myself into believing those goals were somehow worth the insane effort and sacrifices I had made for so many years."

This is not an uncommon feeling for many people - not just gamblers.

Truly something you might want to do - is make NEW goals.

Part of the process is to CONSTANTLY make goals and give yourself something ELSE to strive for.

And to complete.

It isn't the lack of justification or a "good" feeling to pass those goals... It is in the game of finishing those goals like you set out to do so.

It's a competition of sorts with yourself.

Once you complete a goal - it's kind of "blah" feeling "ishy".

It's in the game... In the chase that you feel most alive.

So make some NEW goals.

Maybe Philanthropy.

Maybe you could do something with your money - besides give it back to the critters that give it to you.

Truth is - most people don't win.

Truth is - no matter how good at gambling you are - you're going to lose sometime.

And loss is horrible.

So - make new goals.

Make something worthwhile.

Yeah - get off your arse and do it.

I mean - hell - if I had the kind of money you were talking about - I'd sit comfortably on my arse and write a book - and live modestly... For the rest of my life.

I don't need Glamor.

I don't need extravagance...

I need a nice house, a comfy grouping of furniture - some toys - a little bit of yearly spending money - and a passport to do a little travelling... (And I don't have to go first class either...)

A garden.

Enough money for food and basic bills.

And Voila... An enjoyable - enviable life.

So - what makes YOU different - now that you've GOT the money?

Hmmm?

Now you have to spend it all back - just to prove that you're a loser? And an unlucky one at that?

You have to PROVE to yourself that you are self destructing?

Fine...

But could you self destruct in my direction?

I mean I've got a deck of cards -and cheap chips - I suck at poker - but you could pay the house advantage... LOL!

Or you could just wire me the money - so I can pay my attorneys to protect my arse a little better in the suit I have against the State and the City....

LMAO!

Seriously dude - you're talking to a bunch of us who are low key gamblers - some of us have addictions... But you're in the OH MY GAWD range...

The range that we all believe if we ever hit - we'd stop gambling.

Yanno?

Because if I had millions in my hands - I'd seriously never gamble again in my life - I gamble to POSSIBLY win that much - so I won't ever have to worry about life...

Not to live the glamorous life or lose it all back.

Maybe that is an addiction point.

But to me - it sounds more like self destruction.

And a serious case of it.

Again - I reiterate - YOU SHOULD STOP GAMBLING - sit down at your keyboard and write a book.

You've got some information in your head that you should pass on to others.

You've got stories that would make people sit up and pay attention.

Not for the money - but to get that info out there.

[JHV]

This is not an uncommon feeling for many people - not just gamblers.

Somewhat astonishingly (to me), I have discovered over the last 6 months how common this is - I was living in my own little workaholic fantasy land for 14 years.

The happiest people I know are those who don't have regrets. Unfortunately, I regret working so hard for over a decade, and there's no real gameplay solution for that.

But it's all good - once I work out what, if anything, I want to do - I'll snap out of my funk and I'll get it done. Just a matter of finding something I'm motivated.

Discussed philanthropy in another thread. Tried it a number of times, came away from every experience feeling very disillusioned about the concept of charity - I muck around with Kiva.org (micro lending at -EV) which I think highly of, and I do a bit of other stuff - but the simple fact is I don't think a lot of people holding their hands out deserve help, and finding the ones that do appears to be too much hassle, and tilt as you work your way through the jokers that don't deserve assistance on your search for those that do. To cut a very long story short, I've decided I don't really like the idea of most forms of charity - and all my efforts at philanthropy over the years have left me with a bitter aftertaste (with the exception of Kiva).

I apologise and completely understand how sick and twisted such a story must sound to a normal, hard-working person grinding away raising a family, juggling a million responsibilities, etc. I apologise how, if I am truthful about what I've done and how I feel about it, it might create (fair and just) feelings of nausea in some readers. But MSNL online pros live in a surreal world - it's not comparable to reality. As mentioned above, you actually have to disassociate yourself from reality to be successful - and then it's a catch-22 situation. It's all a bit sick, and I never really understood these kinds of complications or how talented players lost huge bankrolls until I experienced the insanity for myself. I had always assumed otherwise talented players who burned huge rolls (generically common-place in our world) had crazy mental issues, where their egos blew into insane realms and they went mad / insane chasing losses in furious, maddening tilt. I never, for one second, considered myself to ever be at risk - as I have prided myself on my discipline and mental control / stability for so long. No one ever explained to me about the "numbness" factor - that, so often, huge bankrolls amassed over long periods of time are dumped purely cause the player doesn't care all that much, feels nothing or very little. It's such a cute, but sick, irony.

I'm barely gambling at all now. I'm still +EV in probably every online MSNL game up to 1000nl and most 2000nl games - I'm probably -EV now in almost, if not every, 5000nl game. And the player pool is rapidly shrinking for all levels, whilst average skill level of opponents is rising rapidly. So even though there are many games where I still have net +expectation vs the field, the margin of edge I have is much smaller now, and decreasing rapidly - causing a corresponding loss in motivation, not that I had much this year to begin with.

I'm still dabbling in some games where I have *decent* expectation, but I'm still losing on a world-class downswing that would send a player who strongly cared about his results completely insane - I am already kind of insane, so I am fine

I just don't really have much drive anymore, so I'm not grinding out 50-80k hand months at MSNL like I used to - I might not play all that seriously for days, or weeks at a time - just trying to figure out what, if anything, I want to do at the moment...and not putting any serious time pressures on myself to reach that decision / conclusion.

It will come to me at some point, I'm just twiddling my thumbs and waiting....I can't set any kind of goals until I decide what exactly I want. At the moment, I want a Subway Teriyaki Chicken footlong, so gonna make that happen - taking it one footlong at a time.

[slotheadlizard]

Someone responding to such a survey would never see through such craftily disguised subterfuge.

Addicts of any kind LOVE to admit they have a problem. They are well-known for being objective and rational about their activities and have rarely been found to be in any form of denial whatsoever.

All CM forum members never give smart ass replies, and are always objective. They are open to suggestions and constructive criticism. They are rarely found to be wrong in any fashion, and keep their post short and to the point.

[4 of a kind]

Glad to see you back again JHV. Seems your doing a great job venting here on this forum.
Wish you great success and recovery.