What the hell 3dice

[Swede]

The table games of 3dice has to have some sort of magic payout to them. I will recite a few that Vegas, the rest of the world, me(and my math professor whos' probably rolling over in his grave), mathematicians around the globe and any other person with their eyes open at least halfsies would react to:

3dice stats table games:

Pai Gow: 1442/3906 including ties = 36% winning hands

Utopia if you ask any distinguished player.

Three-Card Poker = 76% return including side bets, disregarding bet size

Baccarat quickie = 84/196 only betting banker

Disgusting enough with a return of 47%

These are even-money games or close thereof, my results playing 3dice slots are equally disgusting. I will present those later if you will.

Good Luck, Swede

Added just now. dealer BJ streak:

20, 20, 21, BJ, 21, 20, 21, BJ, 21. I don't care where you're from and whom you believe in, this is an anomaly beyond. Speaking as a mathematician, I am ready to barf(pardon my french and illiteracy).

 

[DarkMage]

had the same experience as you, unreal low payouts...I stopped playing real money at 3dice

Especially the blackjack, don't get me started on 3dice's blackjack, I play blackjack every day for hours and hours at brick and motor and online and have NEVER and I mean NEVER seen results like I saw at 3dice for LOW stakes lol lol lol..and I am talking about millions of hands in my blackjack career.

 

[jas2587]

hey but they have Great Customer support an Quick payouts an Chat an Free Tourneys

what more could ya want for your money

Babblefish

the above is the excuse that alot use when they have lost


I am in no way making fun at yall cept the Babblefish inside joke

Cindy

 

[Swede]

Dagmnabbit, I aint's gots no wish of that(read with a southern - 12 tooth accent)

And babeldem or not, this sucks arse(continuing right now).

A lovely 23% to grace my looooosing streak, what the motherbfgdbfxgbxfgbfg are these ngjdngbjdnnjdnbvj doing?

hey but they have Great Customer support an Quick payouts an Chat an Free Tourneys

what more could ya want for your money

Babblefish

the above is the excuse that alot use when they have lost


I am in no way making fun at yall cept the Babblefish inside joke

Cindy

BTW, here's a new thingy for you to bable:

Jag eerr muflo en riktig nesdi svensk oorph

 

[jas2587]

Dagmnabbit, I aint's gots no wish of that(read with a southern - 12 tooth accent)

And babeldem or not, this sucks arse(continuing right now).

A lovely 23% to grace my looooosing streak, what the motherbfgdbfxgbxfgbfg are these ngjdngbjdnnjdnbvj doing?



BTW, here's a new thingy for you to bable:

Jag eerr muflo en riktig nesdi svensk oorph

lmao if gave me this what ever the Fluck it means
Back translation (es -> en -> es):
Haga punta el muflo del eerr en oorph del svensk del nesdi del riktig

if that is cussing please forgive me
by the way can you whistle thru them 12 teeth

Cindy

 

[me_and_ed]

And I got lambasted for requesting verified payouts..........

 

[silcnlayc]

20, 20, 21, BJ, 21, 20, 21, BJ, 21. I don't care where you're from and whom you believe in, this is an anomaly beyond. Speaking as a mathematician, I am ready to barf(pardon my french and illiteracy).

Hate to say it but this is old news...many of us have been around and around about the card games, and even got a thread somewhere on how truly bad it is.

.

 

[Nifty29]

OK, can someone post the odds of that progression of hands happening?

20, 20, 21, BJ, 21, 20, 21, BJ, 21

I dont play BJ or any card game online as I cant trust ANY software to be 100% random (Ive played at a land casino a few times for entertainment ONLY because I can see the actual cards dealt with my own eyes). With slots, at least I KNOW its not random and I know in advance that Im gonna get screwed

Even if I was dealt those hands as a player I would be suspicious, although if it really IS random then anything is possible. The same lottery numbers CAN be drawn 2 weeks in a row - its extremely unlikely - but its possible.

 

[chuchu59]

Swede,

The returns are lousy by any standards though, with the exception of paigow, there are too few stats to make a judgment. By the way, do you mean that the 1442 hands includes ties or was it the 3906? If it were the latter, we may have to know the number of ties as it is of quite some significance especially in such a game. If this was included in the 1442 hands, I think Enzo may have to check this out as near 4000 hands should yield a more even result.

For Baccarat, again I would like to know the ratio of hands for Banker vs Player ie taking out the pushes. Around 200 hands is not really significant but if the player streaks vastly outnumber the banker streaks then I wouldnt touch the game. I also bet exclusively on Banker and other than MG (which also has not been kind to me recently), it is very normal to see player streaks of 6-7 hands over every 100 hands or so. I have seen this at Rival, RTG and Crypto. The worst one was losing 11 hands at RTG and 10 at Crypto. I have never encountered a winning streak at Banker for more than 8 hands at any of these software and that was only once at the same RTG that I lost 11 hands. For those who know the game, the Banker bet has a slight advantage so normally there should be slightly more and longer Banker streaks than Player streaks. That is also the reason a 5% commission is charged for Banker winning bets.

 

[3Dice]

Hi Swede,

First off, I appreciate that a bad run is less fun than a good one. I can understand the beneficial effects of venting, and I know for sure that letting those emotions out is a lot better than stacking them up. Know that our staff is trained to be as supportive as possible -within reason - and that they are always there for you if you need them.

I also know however that strong emotions tend to get in the way of analytical thinking, and might for example lead a mathematician to look at the numbers from a slightly skewed point of view. Even the greatest minds suffer this problem and was it not Einstein who later on admitted that the cosmological constant he added to the original relativity theory was the biggest mistake he ever made - driven by his emotional inability to accept the consequences of it not being there.

I don't know whether or not statistics is your particular math specialty - but even if it isn't I'm sure you are aware of the basic rules when dealing with sampled data. One of the basic rules - and the one that you seem to have overlooked - is that the statisticus cannot choose his samples - you can take all the data - or you can take random samples - but you cant pick a specific run and draw your conclusions on that if you have more complete data available. This clearly is tainting the results and driven by the urge to find a 'cosmological constant' that simply isn't there.

It would be easy for me to pick runs from your history that are equally long and in the opposite end of the result spectrum. I wont do that tho - but I would be happy to post your lifetime stats on the games you mention (just % - not amounts) and give the users of this forum the information they need to form a correct opinion. With the information you have provided all that can be mathematically deducted is that you had a single bad run.

If you take yourself serious as a mathematician, and if you respect this form for its open nature then I'm sure you'll have no problems with me posting that information ?

Kindest Regards,

Enzo

 

[chuchu59]

Enzo's proposal seems fair Swede. If you agree, how about posting the results for Paigow Poker for analysis first. Thousands of hands have been played so they do bear some significance.

 

[thelawnet]

The table games of 3dice has to have some sort of magic payout to them. I will recite a few that Vegas, the rest of the world, me(and my math professor whos' probably rolling over in his grave), mathematicians around the globe and any other person with their eyes open at least halfsies would react to:

3dice stats table games:

Pai Gow: 1442/3906 including ties = 36% winning hands

??? The chance of winning a hand in pai gow poker is only 29%. Tie is 41%.

Not sure what you are talking about?

Three-Card Poker = 76% return including side bets, disregarding bet size

Utterly meaningless. If I play 1,000,000 hands at $1 and 100 hands at $10,000, how useful are my aggregate returns? They're not useful at all.

And sidebets suck.

Baccarat quickie = 84/196 only betting banker

Disgusting enough with a return of 47%

That's a 21% chance. Not even unusual.

20, 20, 21, BJ, 21, 20, 21, BJ, 21. I don't care where you're from and whom you believe in, this is an anomaly beyond. Speaking as a mathematician, I am ready to barf(pardon my french and illiteracy).

That's about a 1 in 50,000 event. Which is not unusual, especially given that it's a pattern looked for after the fact. 'Patterns' can be defined as anything - win/win/win/win/win, lose/win/lose/win, whatever, and with so many possible things for players to whine about, a mildly unusual (1 in 50,000) event is going to happen on a regular basis.

 

[pmhcfc]

The same lottery numbers CAN be drawn 2 weeks in a row - its extremely unlikely - but its possible.

Well it is possible, but the odds of the same six correct numbers coming up at random again are 5,400,000,000,000 to one

 

[DarkMage]

I'll be fair here, I read the audit 3dice got for their blackjack game by a respected member of this forum I think Eliot Jacobson...I still have it somewhere on my computer if anyone wants to read it...

I do remember one line in the report that struck me as odd..

The games tend to be extremely streaky

Also I couldn't understand why when you had a 10 or 11 the next card being a Ace or 10 was MUCH lower then when the dealer had a 10 or 11

Enzo is right in his post you remember bad streaks much more then the good ones it's just I've never seen blackjack at brick and motor/online that I get it seems EVERY time at 3dice. bah

audit was from like a year ago so...not sure if it is still accurate.

edit: Here is the audit so no one thinks I'm crazy - If 3dice does not want it public just PM me and I'll take it down
**snip** [Max says: player info revealed, please repost a version that does not.]

 

[Pinababy69]

Enzo, that audit is hosted on your 3Dice servers, and I just realized that it has the full name of the player who originally commissioned it in big letters right at the top. Maybe an oversight, but can you edit it please (the audit, not Dark Mage's link)?

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Enzo, that audit is hosted on your 3Dice servers, and I just realized that it has the full name of the player who originally commissioned it in big letters right at the top. Maybe an oversight, but can you edit it please (the audit, not Dark Mage's link)?

So does he give people's credit card information out, sell it, a man of integrity. That is the 6th version 4 month's after the fact and Eliot Jacobson's second 180. What an industry!

 

[Pinababy69]

Thank you Max.

 

[Rusty]

Hi Swede,

First off, I appreciate that a bad run is less fun than a good one. I can understand the beneficial effects of venting, and I know for sure that letting those emotions out is a lot better than stacking them up. Know that our staff is trained to be as supportive as possible -within reason - and that they are always there for you if you need them.

I also know however that strong emotions tend to get in the way of analytical thinking, and might for example lead a mathematician to look at the numbers from a slightly skewed point of view. Even the greatest minds suffer this problem and was it not Einstein who later on admitted that the cosmological constant he added to the original relativity theory was the biggest mistake he ever made - driven by his emotional inability to accept the consequences of it not being there.

I don't know whether or not statistics is your particular math specialty - but even if it isn't I'm sure you are aware of the basic rules when dealing with sampled data. One of the basic rules - and the one that you seem to have overlooked - is that the statisticus cannot choose his samples - you can take all the data - or you can take random samples - but you cant pick a specific run and draw your conclusions on that if you have more complete data available. This clearly is tainting the results and driven by the urge to find a 'cosmological constant' that simply isn't there.

It would be easy for me to pick runs from your history that are equally long and in the opposite end of the result spectrum. I wont do that tho - but I would be happy to post your lifetime stats on the games you mention (just % - not amounts) and give the users of this forum the information they need to form a correct opinion. With the information you have provided all that can be mathematically deducted is that you had a single bad run.

If you take yourself serious as a mathematician, and if you respect this form for its open nature then I'm sure you'll have no problems with me posting that information ?

Kindest Regards,

Enzo

First of all I have to say I do not play at 3dice so I have no personal experience of the software and can not make any judgment on the stats provided.

Certainly cherry picking statistical samples can be misleading but so can presenting overall return as evidence of a fair game.
What we really need to form an informed opinion is to know how often these streaks occur whether for the house or the player and if it is statistically significant.

(this is 3dice non specific)
I have no doubt that slots have manufactured streaks inbuilt to the overall return a player will receive and that operators have more control over return than is ever admitted on these boards so I consider it plausible at least that table games may not play as advertised at all times.


Somewhat off topic;
A Cosmological constant is still very much in play and Einsteins biggest mistake may yet be he admitted he was wrong about it.
(I know you love your physics Enzo, sorry for mini derail)

 

[winbig]

Here's some food for thought:

Can you even get a "true" blackjack game online?

The reason I ask is that even though the slots "casinos" here in PA offer electronic blackjack, it's not as if you're getting a true blackjack game with the appropriate expected HA, depending on the decks/rules of the game. They are setup to pay out just the same as regular slot machine, with about the same payout %....and we're talking about 90-91% as apposed to the 98+% you'd expect from a "real" blackjack game..It'd be interesting to see the overall payout report for not only 3dice's blackjack, but for other software, as well. For online casinos to group all table games in together and publish an overall payout % is just....well, you decide. I'd love for online casinos to break it down to each individual table game...

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Unfucking believable, I don't have clue who the dude is that Enzo gave my personal information to. Obviously, that dude is not the only one as I have received correspondences just this morning that 3 other people (2 I know, 1 I do not). Nevermind that Bryan took the real audit down in 10 minutes which Enzo was right there.

Enzo, you leave me no choice, heads up, and I have been advised by counsel to exit this forum.

 

[WagerWitch]

Counsel?

what?

I'm sorry - I can't quite wrap my head around all this - because I must have missed some serious pieces.

I can say that I have had some good wins and bad losses at 3dice - but the customer service IS tremendous - and the freebies/tourneys etc. are a ton of fun.

I'm not a mathematician, I either win or I don't.

But --- you guys - I'm not sure what is going on here - and it sounds very dark right now.

Just as a side note - Enzo has always treated me with respect and I believe honesty. If there was something done, I'm going to go out on a limb here - I'm sure it wasn't done with evil intent.

at least I sincerely hope my belief is correct - and I'm sorry for popping my nose in - where it probably doesn't belong.

WW

 

[same_old]

Almost the exact same topic is here with what Swede was saying. you may want to have a read off these posts as well.


https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/no-more-3dice-for-me.27220/

this exact topic has come up quite a few times over the last year or so. I to felt I wasn't getting a fair game and got both Bryan and max to look into it for me and they confirmed it looked legit, needless to say I havent played at 3dice since.

 

[me_and_ed]

Counsel?

what?

I'm sorry - I can't quite wrap my head around all this - because I must have missed some serious pieces.

I can say that I have had some good wins and bad losses at 3dice - but the customer service IS tremendous - and the freebies/tourneys etc. are a ton of fun.

I'm not a mathematician, I either win or I don't.

But --- you guys - I'm not sure what is going on here - and it sounds very dark right now.

Just as a side note - Enzo has always treated me with respect and I believe honesty. If there was something done, I'm going to go out on a limb here - I'm sure it wasn't done with evil intent.

at least I sincerely hope my belief is correct - and I'm sorry for popping my nose in - where it probably doesn't belong.

WW

Nope, something else has gone on here, I was not quick enough to pick it up.

 

[Rusty]

Here's some food for thought:

Can you even get a "true" blackjack game online?

The reason I ask is that even though the slots "casinos" here in PA offer electronic blackjack, it's not as if you're getting a true blackjack game with the appropriate expected HA, depending on the decks/rules of the game. They are setup to pay out just the same as regular slot machine, with about the same payout %....and we're talking about 90-91% as apposed to the 98+% you'd expect from a "real" blackjack game..It'd be interesting to see the overall payout report for not only 3dice's blackjack, but for other software, as well. For online casinos to group all table games in together and publish an overall payout % is just....well, you decide. I'd love for online casinos to break it down to each individual table game...

Obviously you can only ever have an electronic approximation of a real World system but here is the deal so to speak.
All game returns should have there return dictated by the paytable and nothing else.

For as closer game of real World Blackjack as possible we should have a virtual deck rather than the RNG just returning a number that represents a particular card, this is lazy and bad programming but it may well exist in some software just as weighting of slot reels exists.

If I were programming a game of Single deck Blackjack I would create a virtual deck that is virtually shuffled to try and best replicate real World Blackjack.
I will show how that is done in very simple terms because if I were to explain everything fully I would need to write code give a crash course in programming and give lengthy explanations beside each piece of code.

First I need to create a deck of 52 cards.
You could do this by simply having a variable "deck"(52) that contained all 52 possible values of a deck of cards.
(let's not worry about about Aces 1 or 11 or how to differentiate between J or Q and suits it is not relevant to this)

So I decide
deck(1)=1 (ace), deck(2)=2, deck(3)=3, deck(4)=4, deck(5)=5, deck(6)=6, deck(7)=7, deck(8)=8, deck(9)=9, deck(10)=10, deck(11)=10, deck(12)=10, deck(13)=10 *note 11 is Jack, 12 is Q, 13 is K but all value 10 in BJ.

*New suit

deck(14)=1 (ace), deck(15)=2, deck(16)=3, deck(17)=4, deck(18)=5, deck(19)=6,deck(20)=7, deck(21)=8, deck(22)=9, deck(23)=10, deck(24)=10, deck(25)=10, deck(26)=10

and so on until all 52 values have been assigned to our variable named "deck"

Now from here, as I explained, you could just have your RNG generate a number from 1 to 52 to deal a card but this is not very satisfactory.

I want to have a virtual deck that is shuffled so what I need to do is move the values in "deck" around.

To do this I can get Two random numbers from my RNG from 1 to 52 and swap the corresponding values in my deck.
So for example my RNG generates 6 and 23 so we take the value deck(6)=6 and place it into the value deck(23) so that deck(23) now =6 and not 10 but also deck(6) will now hold deck(23) old value of 10.
We have now shuffled 2 cards in our deck.
This process can be repeated many Thousands of times a second so a good shuffle can be easily achieved.
We then deal from the top of our virtual deck.
This system will give a closer approximation of real World Blackjack and is even a good way to make better use of a pseudo RNG because you should also randomize how long the deck is shuffled for.

For Two decks we would simply extend our variable range to deck(104)

Hope that gives some basic insight into how a fair online game of Blackjack may work.

 

[winbig]

Obviously you can only ever have an electronic approximation of a real World system but here is the deal so to speak.
All game returns should have there return dictated by the paytable and nothing else.

Which was precisely my question....I wasn't questioning the fairness of it, just the payout %...

 

[Swede]

Good post Rusty, thank you. And here's the true problem with 3dice's card games:

Like someone said earlier in this thread: "duh, you need a sample size larger than or equal to the budget deficit, duh. Completely moot as neither of us will live 60,000 years to play enough hands to get a 100% fair outcome. When casinos or dullards cite that excuse, you know you're being taken for a ride. The point is, when 9/10 or your sessions are statistical anomalies, always in the casinos favor, the outcome of the game is skewed. It does not matter if it's intentional or not, you will lose your money, period.

If you can't wrap your head around this, consider the following:

I know what the expected return in Pai Gow is, someone tried to be a wise-ass about it but clearly didn't quite get it. If you play a fair Pai Gow game, your chances of losing(this means whatever bet you placed on the felt gets removed = you lost both up and down) more than two out of every three hands over a period of months and years, you'd be a fool not to realize you're being taken.

Again, when streaks like this never occurs in your favor, the game is manupulated. Or in other words, just as random as the color of the coil I leave behind in the morning.

In conclusion, I can only agree that sidebets sucks. Sadly, my pleistocene ancestor never played them so we'll never accumulate a big enough sample size to really know, will we.

Also, I've given up trying to retrieve payout numbers from 3dice. They are always manipulated in some way, suggesting I'm even stevens lifetime. I will strongly consider closing my account there and recommend everyone I know to do the same.

 

[Rusty]

Which was precisely my question....I wasn't questioning the fairness of it, just the payout %...

But thats is exactly what you are doing if the online rules and paytable are the same as those offline you are comparing it with and yet the return is somehow lower.
Perhaps I am misreading your post and you are saying the paytable and rules are changed to give the lower payout in which case i apologise but surely the idea of playing online is lower overheads/ higher returns?


Can you even get a "true" blackjack game online?

The reason I ask is that even though the slots "casinos" here in PA offer electronic blackjack, it's not as if you're getting a true blackjack game with the appropriate expected HA, depending on the decks/rules of the game. They are setup to pay out just the same as regular slot machine, with about the same payout %....and we're talking about 90-91% as apposed to the 98+% you'd expect from a "real" blackjack game.

Certainly slots or Blackjack should not be "setup" to return a preset percentage to the player, that is basically a rigged game but there should be a theoretical return based on the probability of outcome that remains unchanged. The game rules and paytable should dictate the house edge and nothing else.
Any game which can change the theoretical return should not exist but they do and we take it like the fools we obviously are.

 

[Trollet]

Oh my...yet an 3Dice thread..
and yes..i have to say my 2 cents..lol...did you really think i would miss that?

Anyway... if you are not happy with them...why dont you just close your account?

I get the part that if theres something wrong..its good to post about it.
But i also belive that a few did it in the past..and they all ended up beeing wrong.

I wish you the best of luck... lycka till

(((HUGS))) Trollet

 

[winbig]

Certainly slots or Blackjack should not be "setup" to return a preset percentage to the player, that is basically a rigged game but there should be a theoretical return based on the probability of outcome that remains unchanged. The game rules and paytable should dictate the house edge and nothing else.
Any game which can change the theoretical return should not exist but they do and we take it like the fools we obviously are.

I tried telling that to the PA gaming commission, but they're friggin idiots or something and think that since it plays the same as blackjack, they don't need to post a disclaimer or anything about the true payout % and how it differs from the actual expected HA. That's the sole reason I never play there anymore.

But anyways,

[/derail]

So, upon saying that, if you figure a state gaming commission will allow it, it's definitely a possibility that online casinos will do it, as well. I'm not saying 3Dice does it, but in general.

But until we can get any software provider to come forward and publish their overall blackjack/other table game specific payouts, it's only speculation.

 

[Rusty]

I seem to be doing a lot of derailing lately so I apologise in advance but it is quite an interesting discussion as to what constitutes a fair game.

I think with the specific case you are referring to Biggy there should definately be a disclaimer as you say stating that the game is not real Blackjack. (see UKGC 7c)
Even though I do not believe the UKGC prohibits the use of weighting in its regulations there are clear requirements that I do not believe most software would currently pass.
I have selected just a few of the more relevant Ones and included a cheeky Blackjack Autoplay One which should probably be in the bot thread.

Link
Old / Expired Link


d. Restricting adaptive behaviour prohibits automatic or manual interventions that change the probabilities of game outcomes occurring during play. Restricting adaptive behaviour is not intended to prevent games from offering bonus or special features that implement a different set of rules, if they are based on the occurrence of random events

RTS requirement 7C
Game designs or features that may reasonably be expected to mislead the customer about the likelihood of particular results occurring are not permitted, including substituting losing events with near-miss losing events, and simulations of real devices that do not simulate the real probabilities of the device.
RTS implementation guidance 7C
a. Where a virtual event simulates a physical device, the theoretical game probabilities should match the probabilities of the real device (for example, the probability of a coin landing heads must be 0.5 every time the coin is tossed).

RTS implementation guidance 9A (Autoplay functions)
a. In implementing this control, the following should be considered, where appropriate:
i. if there is a standard strategy, for example, for well known games like blackjack, the standard strategy should be used

 

[shoust]

I seem to be doing a lot of derailing lately so I apologise in advance but it is quite an interesting discussion as to what constitutes a fair game.

I think with the specific case you are referring to Biggy there should definately be a disclaimer as you say stating that the game is not real Blackjack. (see UKGC 7c)
Even though I do not believe the UKGC prohibits the use of weighting in its regulations there are clear requirements that I do not believe most software would currently pass.
I have selected just a few of the more relevant Ones and included a cheeky Blackjack Autoplay One which should probably be in the bot thread.

Link
Old / Expired Link


d. Restricting adaptive behaviour prohibits automatic or manual interventions that change the probabilities of game outcomes occurring during play. Restricting adaptive behaviour is not intended to prevent games from offering bonus or special features that implement a different set of rules, if they are based on the occurrence of random events

RTS requirement 7C
Game designs or features that may reasonably be expected to mislead the customer about the likelihood of particular results occurring are not permitted, including substituting losing events with near-miss losing events, and simulations of real devices that do not simulate the real probabilities of the device.
RTS implementation guidance 7C
a. Where a virtual event simulates a physical device, the theoretical game probabilities should match the probabilities of the real device (for example, the probability of a coin landing heads must be 0.5 every time the coin is tossed).

RTS implementation guidance 9A (Autoplay functions)
a. In implementing this control, the following should be considered, where appropriate:
i. if there is a standard strategy, for example, for well known games like blackjack, the standard strategy should be used

Whats quite interesting with 3dice video poker, last time I checked its autoplay, it doesn't use the standard strategy.

 

[jas2587]

Whats quite interesting with 3dice video poker, last time I checked its autoplay, it doesn't use the standard strategy.

no it uses 3Dice strategy

Cindy

 

[jimdog]

bad runs at online casino

I play 3dice alot and have had both bad runs and good. But, I have noticed the same on RTG casinos I play- in fact, much worse runs of bad. And the customer service at 3dice is far better than any other I have played. I also had a day at a brick and mortar casino where I couldn't even seem to win one hand of blackjack and I was switching tables. At the time, I was sure it was rigged- but now that I look back at it, it probably wasn't. I almost exclusively play 3dice because of the service and quick withdrawls. When I hit a real bad streak, I remember that is time for a break.

 

[thelawnet]

Good post Rusty, thank you. And here's the true problem with 3dice's card games:

Like someone said earlier in this thread: "duh, you need a sample size larger than or equal to the budget deficit, duh. Completely moot as neither of us will live 60,000 years to play enough hands to get a 100% fair outcome. When casinos or dullards cite that excuse, you know you're being taken for a ride. The point is, when 9/10 or your sessions are statistical anomalies, always in the casinos favor, the outcome of the game is skewed. It does not matter if it's intentional or not, you will lose your money, period.

I've heard this claim from people before. But usually when you see the full history it turns out not to be true. The casino rep has offered to analyse your full history, why not take him up on the offer?

I know what the expected return in Pai Gow is, someone tried to be a wise-ass about it but clearly didn't quite get it. If you play a fair Pai Gow game, your chances of losing(this means whatever bet you placed on the felt gets removed = you lost both up and down) more than two out of every three hands over a period of months and years, you'd be a fool not to realize you're being taken.

You're going to have to be more specific, as we need to be talking about the same thing.

This was your statement:

Pai Gow: 1442/3906 including ties = 36% winning hands


In Pai Gow Poker you have three possible results, win, lose, or push.

What number does 1442 represent? Is this your total wins? Or your total wins and pushes? Or something else?

Also, I've given up trying to retrieve payout numbers from 3dice. They are always manipulated in some way, suggesting I'm even stevens lifetime. I will strongly consider closing my account there and recommend everyone I know to do the same.

? I don't follow. Ask for full logs, whatever. If they're manipulated can you suggest how? Because to me it sounds like you ARE even stevens lifetime, if those are the numbers they are giving you.

 

[jas2587]

Unfucking believable, I don't have clue who the dude is that Enzo gave my personal information to. Obviously, that dude is not the only one as I have received correspondences just this morning that 3 other people (2 I know, 1 I do not). Nevermind that Bryan took the real audit down in 10 minutes which Enzo was right there.

Enzo, you leave me no choice, heads up, and I have been advised by counsel to exit this forum.

Nash you are not the 1st persons that he posted an probably wont be the last Good Luck in what ever you decide to do

Cindy

 

[funky_seagull]

Happy 3dice story (-:

I've had my share of bad luck and crappy sessions, but I don't think 3dice are rigged, as I've had these crappy sessions everywhere. To be honest I don't notice much difference to the way 3dice software behaves to any other casino software online. All casino software seems dead streaky to me. With long losing streaks and the occasional nice win to balance things out being the norm. I've had dire experiences playing blackjack and 3 card poker on microgaming, playtech and cryptologic. But all these software have TST certification, so some independent mathematical expert must believe them all to be fair.

Happy 3dice story:

I did have a very good experience at 3dice a few weeks ago. On my birthday 3dice kindly gave me a $25 free chip with wagering requirements. And to my great surprise and joy I hit a royal flush on Nevada Bonus videopoker, my first royal flush of the year. The next day I got dealt 4 aces on Superaces videpoker, and then hit a $115 bonus round on Medieval Mulah. I did very well and after meeting wagering requirements and playing a wee bit more. I ended up cashing out $600, this was in my Neteller account within 24 hours, no hassles, no bother, no attempts to stall or confiscate winnings I made $600 from a free chip. If the software was rigged I doubt I would have won so much off a free chip it simply wouldn't have let me win... and I doubt I would have got my winnings.

I have played again since my winning session and my last 3 sessions at 3dice have been losses, but this is the normal ups and downs of gambling... you can't win 'em all. I have not played in a land based casino for a very long time, so can't really say how streaky they are in comparison, but perhaps online gaming appears more streaky due to many many more hands/spins being played in an hour than in a landbased casino... and so you notice your money going up and down at a faster rate... I don't know.

At the moment I am having a dire losing streak in every online casino I am a member of and planning on having a holiday from gambling for a few weeks as I just can't seem to hit anything anywhere at the moment and this isn't much fun, would rather save my pennies... perhaps that's the key, just don't play when you're no longer having fun. When the enjoyment factor disappears and you start feeling angry, take a break. I think maybe with gambling it is easier to remember the losses and forget the wins... like it is easier to focus on the bad times in life than it is the good times.


peace

.

 

[silcnlayc]

I have played again since my winning session and my last 3 sessions at 3dice have been losses, but this is the normal ups and downs of gambling

The one thing I keep wondering is, if the software is fair, and there are losing streaks..why is it no one has winning streaks at the same casino? Fair is fair, and if it goes one way, then it should go the other way too but it doesn't...has anyone ever wondered why???

I have...at any B&M the same goes and I have had winning runs at the same casino but never on an online one...I find this very strange..one win, maybe 2 but then a run of over 20-30 loss sessions...where are the 20-30 win sessions I ask??? HMMM...doesn't anyone find this interesting??

.

 

[chuchu59]

Sinc,

There are winning streaks but the number of losing streaks (by streak I mean wins/losses for at least 6 consecutive hands) far outnumber the winning streaks. Furthermore, the losing streaks could extend to 11-12 hands whereas you hardly win more than 8 hands in succession. This is becoming far too common at the table games in RTG and Rival and the games I am referring to are Baccarat and Paigow Poker. If you bet exclusively on Banker for Baccarat over a huge number of hands, it showed show that the number of hands won should slightly exceed your losing hands given that you have to pay a 5% commission. However, the streaks on Player are too commonplace for comfort and for my play at the RTGs and Rivals I am quite certain the number of player outcomes exceed the banker outcomes. I have played at 3Dice table games but the number of hands are too few to make a realistic assessment.

 

[bernynhel]

Tsk, tsk, tsk!

 

[zap987]

Several people complaining about VP autoplay, anyone could post an actual example where the autoplay makes a non-optimal choice? The programming for autoplay on VP isn't that complicated so until someone posts numbers it's a lot easier to believe that the players are wrong.

 

[silcnlayc]

chuchu, I was reflecting on "sessions" one plays at the same casino, not hands. Sorry for the confusion. There is always a run of bad I was saying, when is the run of good going to happen , and I do not mean 1 or 2 winning sessions vs 20-30 losing ones..why is it never the other way around if online casinos are fair? They should happen too IMO!

.

 

[AussieGambler21]

chuchu, I was reflecting on "sessions" one plays at the same casino, not hands. Sorry for the confusion. There is always a run of bad I was saying, when is the run of good going to happen , and I do not mean 1 or 2 winning sessions vs 20-30 losing ones..why is it never the other way around if online casinos are fair? They should happen too IMO!

.

I think everyone is forgetting the simple fact that we are meant to lose!We are meant to have more losing sessions then winning sessions.Of course it all depends on what game you are playing but i mean seriously how do you think casinos make their money and are able to offer promotions and generally keep us entertained.They are a business after all.

The only time i play at online casino and expect to have more winning sessions then loosing sessions is when i play in that casino poker client (i like hold-em and omaha) but we all know that even then the casino is making a profit of us.

 

[AussieGambler21]

Also i think putting doubt in the minds of players (especially new players) about the legitimacy of a certain online casino without proof is just not called for.

 

[Rusty]

To be fair we can expect slightly longer losing streaks and for them to occur slightly more often but it varies according to the house edge of the game we are playing.
I am certain though it is not just our perception that Casino software gives streakier results than what we would expect and some are worse than others again depending on the game played.

If everyones returns were at the level of theoretical return of the games they played over a good period of time I could just put it down to a unexplained side effect of the RNG's post processing except that slot play proves that there is something more going on and my guess would be it has something to do with the way the algorithm for a particular game interprets the RNG results.

It is a very complex area but basically to know if a game is truly fair you have to know the RNG source used is sufficient, that the protection of the system does not effect the randomness in any way and that the algorithms that convert the data into game results do not intentionally or unintentionally bias results.
Since we have to rely on boffins, 3rd party testing and Casinos to tell us that all is well with the above then we need to decide if there is a weak link in any of this.
That is a very long winded way of saying you either trust the software or you don't but the former does require a leap of faith while the latter should be based on your results alone.

Play, enjoy but be vigilant and take nothing on trust.

 

[CasinoKidd]

I will try to be brief. Everyone is quick to take shots at 3Dice and payouts, and I know their payout can piss me off quite badly, but to bash the casino so easily I just don't get it.

You choose to play there. You choose to deposit. You choose to play certain games. You choose to deposit again. You choose to try again. You choose to try yet again. And again. You see a pattern here? If you don't like the casino payouts, you need to not play there.

The safest way to double your money is to fold it over once and put it in your pocket. ~Kin Hubbard

I havent deposited in 2 weeks. Try it. Feels good.

 

[Pinababy69]

I havent deposited in 2 weeks. Try it. Feels good.

I agree CK. I went from April 25th to May 27th without making a single deposit anywhere. Partially necessity (bathroom reno) and partially choice. I tell you, I am a micro depositor....like $10 or $15 at 3Dice or Inetbet. And $20 at 32Red. You would be amazed how much you actually save by cutting off deposits completely, even small ones. I got my bathroom paid off, and I don't make alot of money.

Besides the money, you are right. It felt good. I finally made a few small deposits last Wednesday night...and playtime was still pretty much shit everywhere. So again, nothing until this morning, when I made a minimal $20 deposit at 32Red. You know.....I played for about three hours this morning, and got up to about $75. I left it for the day, then played early this evening for probably another two hours or so. Ended up zeroing out, and couldn't hit that $100 mark....but five hours entertainment on $20 is pretty good to me. Mind you, my largest bet was 50 cents...most were 18 cents to 25 cents.

I agree that it's no fun when your money just disappears in the blink of an eye. It happens to me too. But CK's advice is sound....take a break. You'd be surprised how good it does feel, and how much more you enjoy the play when you do decide to play again.

 

[thelawnet]

Several people complaining about VP autoplay, anyone could post an actual example where the autoplay makes a non-optimal choice? The programming for autoplay on VP isn't that complicated so until someone posts numbers it's a lot easier to believe that the players are wrong.

I agree with you. I tried a few dozen hands on JoB and DW just now and it played 100% correctly.

 

[Nifty29]

Great posts Pina and CasinoKidd

I can personally recommend this strategy to anyone who isnt enjoying their play any more. You will also bet differently when you return (more sensible I think) and it will definitely save you money and stress.

Its also good to be able to get back in touch with the offline world - its so easy to live your life online sometimes but it is seldom beneficial in the long run.

I agree CK. I went from April 25th to May 27th without making a single deposit anywhere. Partially necessity (bathroom reno) and partially choice. I tell you, I am a micro depositor....like $10 or $15 at 3Dice or Inetbet. And $20 at 32Red. You would be amazed how much you actually save by cutting off deposits completely, even small ones. I got my bathroom paid off, and I don't make alot of money.

Besides the money, you are right. It felt good. I finally made a few small deposits last Wednesday night...and playtime was still pretty much shit everywhere. So again, nothing until this morning, when I made a minimal $20 deposit at 32Red. You know.....I played for about three hours this morning, and got up to about $75. I left it for the day, then played early this evening for probably another two hours or so. Ended up zeroing out, and couldn't hit that $100 mark....but five hours entertainment on $20 is pretty good to me. Mind you, my largest bet was 50 cents...most were 18 cents to 25 cents.

I agree that it's no fun when your money just disappears in the blink of an eye. It happens to me too. But CK's advice is sound....take a break. You'd be surprised how good it does feel, and how much more you enjoy the play when you do decide to play again.

 

[RobWin]

Hi Swede,

First off, I appreciate that a bad run is less fun than a good one. I can understand the beneficial effects of venting, and I know for sure that letting those emotions out is a lot better than stacking them up. Know that our staff is trained to be as supportive as possible -within reason - and that they are always there for you if you need them.

I also know however that strong emotions tend to get in the way of analytical thinking, and might for example lead a mathematician to look at the numbers from a slightly skewed point of view. Even the greatest minds suffer this problem and was it not Einstein who later on admitted that the cosmological constant he added to the original relativity theory was the biggest mistake he ever made - driven by his emotional inability to accept the consequences of it not being there.

I don't know whether or not statistics is your particular math specialty - but even if it isn't I'm sure you are aware of the basic rules when dealing with sampled data. One of the basic rules - and the one that you seem to have overlooked - is that the statisticus cannot choose his samples - you can take all the data - or you can take random samples - but you cant pick a specific run and draw your conclusions on that if you have more complete data available. This clearly is tainting the results and driven by the urge to find a 'cosmological constant' that simply isn't there.

It would be easy for me to pick runs from your history that are equally long and in the opposite end of the result spectrum. I wont do that tho - but I would be happy to post your lifetime stats on the games you mention (just % - not amounts) and give the users of this forum the information they need to form a correct opinion. With the information you have provided all that can be mathematically deducted is that you had a single bad run.

If you take yourself serious as a mathematician, and if you respect this form for its open nature then I'm sure you'll have no problems with me posting that information ?

Kindest Regards,

Enzo

Good post Rusty, thank you. And here's the true problem with 3dice's card games:

Like someone said earlier in this thread: "duh, you need a sample size larger than or equal to the budget deficit, duh. Completely moot as neither of us will live 60,000 years to play enough hands to get a 100% fair outcome. When casinos or dullards cite that excuse, you know you're being taken for a ride. The point is, when 9/10 or your sessions are statistical anomalies, always in the casinos favor, the outcome of the game is skewed. It does not matter if it's intentional or not, you will lose your money, period.

If you can't wrap your head around this, consider the following:

I know what the expected return in Pai Gow is, someone tried to be a wise-ass about it but clearly didn't quite get it. If you play a fair Pai Gow game, your chances of losing(this means whatever bet you placed on the felt gets removed = you lost both up and down) more than two out of every three hands over a period of months and years, you'd be a fool not to realize you're being taken.

Again, when streaks like this never occurs in your favor, the game is manupulated. Or in other words, just as random as the color of the coil I leave behind in the morning.

In conclusion, I can only agree that sidebets sucks. Sadly, my pleistocene ancestor never played them so we'll never accumulate a big enough sample size to really know, will we.

Also, I've given up trying to retrieve payout numbers from 3dice. They are always manipulated in some way, suggesting I'm even stevens lifetime. I will strongly consider closing my account there and recommend everyone I know to do the same.

So, from Enzo's only post here and Swede's last post from 3 days ago...where does this issue stand now??

 

[RobWin]

Here's some food for thought:

Can you even get a "true" blackjack game online?

The reason I ask is that even though the slots "casinos" here in PA offer electronic blackjack, it's not as if you're getting a true blackjack game with the appropriate expected HA, depending on the decks/rules of the game. They are setup to pay out just the same as regular slot machine, with about the same payout %....and we're talking about 90-91% as apposed to the 98+% you'd expect from a "real" blackjack game..It'd be interesting to see the overall payout report for not only 3dice's blackjack, but for other software, as well. For online casinos to group all table games in together and publish an overall payout % is just....well, you decide. I'd love for online casinos to break it down to each individual table game...

Win, did you ever get your BJ play stats from 3Dice that you had been requesting for some time?? I don't recall you ever mentioning it again...