eCOGRA MG Audits

[AussieDave]

Hi all,

In an effort not to derail my own thread, I decided the start another about the topic of eCogra Audits. The catalyst was this post by Mousey:
http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...tml#post296703

My response seen here:
http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...tml#post296794

---------

Although I've seen eCogra mediate positive outcomes for players at their Sealed Casinos, I've always held concern to the fact that:

• eCOGRA was founded on start up money from Microgaming.
• Non Executive Board Directors hold the deciding vote.
• Roger Raatgever (CEO) of Microgaming was an Non Executive Board Director.
• Chris Hobbs (Head of Corporate Affairs Microgaming Software Systems) has now replaced Roger Raatgever is his role.

IMHO these justify anyone's concerns in regard to conflict of interest issues between Microgaming and eCOGRA.

Of course the shills will tell you otherwise

NB - It should be noted that John Anderson (ex CEO of 888.com) also injected start up funds into eCOGRA and still holds a position as a Non Executive Board Director. I also believe that Bwin injected funds into eCOGRA. Like Roger Raatgever the CEO of Bwin has since stepped down. In his place sits Oliver Eckel (Head of Corporate Security for Bwin Interactive Entertainment AG.)


OK I don't agree with how eCOGRA fundamentally operates. But when transposing these opinions to the issue I hold with eCOGRA also conducting Audit reports for Microgaming powered casinos, it's just WRONG, WRONG,WRONG!!!

IMHO it further galvanises the CONFLICT OF INTEREST issues between eCOGRA and Microgaming.

Before eCOGRA conducted these audits, PWC (Price Waterhouse Cooper) performed the audit reports for all MG casinos. As far as I was concerned this was a disconnected, well trusted third party company & nothing lead me to believe that the audit reports would or could be tampered with.

However since eCOGRA has conducted the audit reports for MG casinos, and with the knowledge of Microgaming's relationship & direct connection to eCOGRA operations, it begs one to question & hold doubt to the legitimacy of these eCOGRA MG audits.

When PWC did the MG audits least they delivered these every month.

EG - PWC: (remove YYY)
YYYhttp://www.captaincookscasino.com/security/auditors.asp

eCogra: (remove YYY)
YYYhttp://www.captaincookscasino.com/ecogra/

(I've used Casino Cook Casino as an example. However these results (or lack of) are present on all eCOGRA Sealed casinos).

What happen to 2007 audits?

Why are the Slots, Table Games, Poker Games & All Games audits on ALL eCOGRA Sealed MG casinos only up to 28'th February 2009?

BTW March 2009 & April 2009 audits are not displayed.

Since eCOGRA opened I've dropped in the ball park of the $300K in deposits. With a play through that would probably exceed $7mill +. That gives me more than enough play time to establish if things are funky or not. (regardless of what the shills say)

With the numerous players now questioning the percentage returns and pay-outs of MG slots and other games, and myself seeing consistent funky slot results when gambling at MG casinos, I have a right (so do you) to questions & hold doubt to the legitimacy of the eCOGRA audits and the fairness of MG casino software on a whole.

Cheers
T

[same_old]

Awesome post trezz.

You are right and I did mention in another post that if a place like AP scandal, The company didnt even attempt to look into the issues and I bet they new about the superuser account anyway. It had to take the general public to come forth and show stats that were damming to say the least and basically HAD to address it.

Now we come to casino's and it's starting to work the same way, we are getting players and affiliates who notice something is just not right here but how can we gather pretty solid evidance like they did with AP???, well there is the thousands upon thousands spins we all do to notice it and get play stats but then as you say the Ecorga seal does have a conflict of interest with the MG group so how do we know what we get is actually proper stats etc?- we dont do we.

I mean both compines need each other here so im sure backs are being scratched so its business as usual.

I have a BIG feeling this was a spot on post you have started and some really interesting stuff is going to come out here.

I'm sure we ALL thank you for taking the time to investigate this mate and am personally eager to see what happens.

Regards,

Same_old

[Casinomeister]

...

Of course the shills will tell you otherwise
...

So if anyone disagrees with you, they are a shill? Good way to get any objectivity injected into this thread.

If it wasn't for the initial funding to get eCOGRA off the ground, we wouldn't have this entity to kick around, now would we? All this negativity would be focused on Casinomeister since this is the true shill haven.

Tell me - besides eCOGRA, what other entity assists players at the same level that Casinomeister does?

Tick...tock...tick...tock...tick...tock....

No one.

So I thank MGS and 888.com for getting this organization off the ground and deflecting this player and webmaster hostility from me. That was pretty cool

Segue to the shilly comments: it's been reported ad nauseam on how eCOGRA's services are used by a number of COMPETING software providers - but if you choose not to see this, you never will.

eCOGRA's Tex Rees has also been instrumental in resolving thousands of player issues. I guess this is just another ploy of the puppet masters pulling the strings...

If you find problems with their reporting techniques, try contacting them and asking them what's up. To beat them up with unfounded or unfair comments is not the way to go.

/shill post

[jetset]

Well said, CM - there are a number of inaccuracies and ommissions in Trezz's post which surprise me, given his position as a webmaster in the industry.

These are issues that have all been debated many times, and the facts are in numerous places on the Internet, including eCOGRA.org.

For example, three independent directors with unimpeachable records in the wider industry run the operational side of the organisation and oversee the activities of the CEO and his staff - the other directors from Bwin, 888.com and MGS are not hands on when it comes to operations.

eCOGRA itself is audited and overseen by KPMG, one of the Big Six international audit and professional services groups.

As Bryan says, Tex Rees has over the past five years assisted many players and puts out regular transparent reports on her activities - the most recent of which indicated that something like half of complaints were resolved in favour of the player if I recall correctly - that's a pretty strange way to conspire with the casinos against the player, I'd say.

There are few organisations as accessible as eCOGRA, and I would recommend that Trezz ask his questions direct from the horse's mouth before posting further.

I would also suggest that he use the online complaints facility at the eCOGRA site to lodge a formal complaint if he feels the MGS software has been jimmied.

If he provides full details of his suspicions and asks for a review of his playing records we may get facts instead of supposition and accusations that the organisation is in some way corrupt.

Of course, that hinges on whether you think that eCOGRA and its high profile directors would risk deliberately falsifying such a review....if you believe that, then I doubt your fears can be addressed or assuaged by anyone with comparable resources.

[spiderlegz]

While I dont think for a second that eCOGRA would provide any "doctored" audits I dont see anything else positive about them except Tex Reese.

Play it Safe? It was anything else than safe for those at Arctic Poker (only TUSK skin that had eCOGRA seal). They apparently had no idea what was going on at TUSK. Edit: So a good example where they failed with their Play it Safe.

They have casinos listed that Ill never would play at starting with Lucky Ace.

And not to talk about their "reputable" portal list..

[Mousey]

To put my feelings briefly... I simply feel that ECogra is too closely tied to the industry.

While a working understanding of online gambling and the games and the industry might be helpful in the audits... I have always felt that the audits should come from elsewhere. And don't ask me who should do it. I have no idea. I'm just a player. I'd prefer to go back to something like PWC.

Ecogra doing the MG (and other software) audits is rather like asking my Auntie Sue to audit my bookkeeping and the business where I've worked for 16 years. While she's experienced, knows more about business, bookkeeping, and financial matters than I ever will, and she might even be harsher on me and my books than anyone else... but still... She's too close. It just doesn't sit right with me.

I am NOT screaming 'slots are rigged'. I'm saying, as a player, I'd prefer to see another reputable, professional team audit online casinos and the softwares.

[Pinababy69]

There are few organisations as accessible as eCOGRA, and I would recommend that Trezz ask his questions direct from the horse's mouth before posting further.

I would also suggest that he use the online complaints facility at the eCOGRA site to lodge a formal complaint if he feels the MGS software has been jimmied.

If he provides full details of his suspicions and asks for a review of his playing records we may get facts instead of supposition and accusations that the organisation is in some way corrupt.

Of course, that hinges on whether you think that eCOGRA and its high profile directors would risk deliberately falsifying such a review....if you believe that, then I doubt your fears can be addressed or assuaged by anyone with comparable resources.

I completely agree Jetset on your statement about eCOGRA being accessible. I know that personally, if I felt the need to write to Andrew about something, I know I'll get a reply. He absolutely has an open door policy, which is a good thing IMO.

I strongly agree with the bolded part, I am honest to God sick to death of the "rigged" posts I read every single day on this forum. I'm always willing to keep an open mind.....but simply saying that your cashouts have gone down, or that you don't get retriggers, or the same amount of free spins....sorry, I'm not convinced. I've been playing MG software for as long or longer than anyone on this forum (and so has KK), and why is that neither of us believes that the software is rigged? My playing patterns have stayed the same, I deposit the same amounts, I see tons of winning screenshots in the WS forum, and my payout over the last four years hovers right around 96%. And I play regularly, at least once a week, week in and week out, month in and month out. I win, I lose. Once in a while I cashout. It all feels the same to me.

Bring me proof of rigging, or an unfair game, and you will have the biggest advocate in your corner that you could ever hope for. There is one person on this forum, who I actually believe is trying to gather evidence/proof to support his suspicions, and I respect him and his opinions. He knows who he is, and if he can ever convince me of cheating, I'll come out swinging. Until that time, I'm sorry....but it's sour grapes. And I seriously think that some people are just playing way too much and need to maybe take a break.

And FTR, I don't believe that eCOGRA would falsify any audits or reports.

This is the good part of my post, lol.

While I dont think for a second that eCOGRA would provide any "doctored" audits I dont see anything else positive about them except Tex Reese.

Play it Safe? It was anything else than safe for those at Arctic Poker (only TUSK skin that had eCOGRA seal). They apparently had no idea what was going on at TUSK. Edit: So a good example where they failed with their Play it Safe.

They have casinos listed that Ill never would play at starting with Lucky Ace.

And not to talk about their "reputable" portal list..

Yes Spider, you are spot on with that. And let's not forget the whole Casino Action thing that started this ball rolling. eCOGRA yanked their seals from all the casino properties, but put it down to an administrative issue. Administrative issue? Are you shitting me? Ummmm.....a company on the brink of bankruptcy is sure as hell a whole lot more than an administrative issue, and not having their papers in order. eCOGRA knew they were sinking, yet nary a word was breathed to the player community. Players were still allowed to go on playing/depositing, having no idea that the whole company was about to sink. Funny, I always thought that eCOGRA was in the business of PLAYER PROTECTION. Not in the business of protecting the casino, and the employees who work there. Colour me stupid.

I wouldn't play at Lucky Ace either. And how about them awarding the Play It Safe Seal to Interwetten? The infamous Interwetten who still owes thousands upon thousands of dollars to players. I'm sure that issue is well over a year old now......not a peep from Malta (big surprise). But I can tell you that I nearly friggin fell off my chair when I read that Interwetten was joining the eCOGRA stable. Don't tell me they weren't aware of all the player complaints, and the non-response of Malta to those complaints. But hey, go ahead and add them to the "reputable" list.

And don't even get me started on the "link exchange" with affy sites. You ever checked out some of those sites, and the casinos they promote? To trumpet them as reputable portal sites is a joke. Some of them are pure banner farms, with very little, or no content to speak of. Unless they've cleaned it all up since I last checked. It's absolutely nothing more than sites trading links with each other. It's all about business, and has very little to do with ethics and integrity.

Bottom line, if I had to give a judgement on eCOGRA, they are better than nothing. And they are certainly better than ANYTHING Playtech or RTG offers. At least they offer something. And yes, I do believe they have helped some people. It's one of those "on the fence" things for me. I see a lot of room for improvement, have some serious questions about some of their practices (past and present)....BUT, I do think the player is better off with them, than without them.

[AussieDave]

I didn't post this thread to start a slinging match. I posted it because there are others who feel the same but for whatever reason wont start such a thread.

I also stated the following but that was conveniently over looked.

I've seen eCogra mediate positive outcomes for players at their Sealed Casinos

there are a number of inaccuracies and ommissions in Trezz's post

You attempt to undermine me & cast aspersion at my credibility.

But ironically you fail to mention that you were hired by eCOGRA as one of their consultants. Or did that just slip your mind
(I also believe that CM was a consultant for eCOGRA too.)

Reiterating I'm not here to post a thread to p#ss people off. I'm just adding my opinions, asking a few questions and stating a few facts.

Maybe I should have also posted about your direct connection with eCOGRA as a paid consultant. But I thought I'd leave that up to those who were/are working for eCOGRA to announce themselves.

I would recommend that Trezz ask his questions direct from the horse's mouth before posting further.

Your suggestion(s) are duly noted. However my concern is now turned to ask why you'd post such comments.

Or does my post upset the status quo? The balance of information peeps need to be force feed as opposed to what you and other don't want to disclose.

From here it looks like anyone who questions eCOGRA's motives will be closed down.

I find that really suspicious & worse extremely disturbing

Cheers
T

[Rusty]

We seem to have Two arguments here.

Is ecogra a worthwhile organization?

Is there a conflict of interests within the organization?

I would have to say Yes and no to the first question.

Yes it is worthwhile because the player needs all the protection they can get and needs somewhere that will hold the Casinos accountable.

No because it is in no way independent and actually acts as a veneer of legitimacy for Casinos and software that simply is not there.
In this respect it can dilute calls for proper regulation.

To the second question the answer has to be Yes.
If only the taxman would allow me to audit my own accounts and take my results as gospel, I know I am trustworthy.

It is a very similar situation to what we have here in meister land and yet I do not question Bryan's integrity.
Not because I believe he is inscrutable or immune to the prejudices we all have whether we are aware of them or not but because it is my experience that He genuinely makes online gaming a better and safer place and in this case the end justifies the means.

The difference though is that this is a public forum and though it offers a mediation service it does not have the pretense of being an official body that takes a proactive role in ensuring Casinos are fair.

That essentially is what I object to about ecogra and just because online gambling is so poorly regulated it should not mean they are beyond criticism.
They may all be Angels over there for all I know and I would not attack them personally but they must recognize that there is a conflict of interest and where this state exist the general perception will be that not all cases will be dealt with even handedly and in this industry perception is as good as fact.

Let's be realistic, if there was a case that conclusively proved MG was rigged and that ecogra was implicated in some way do we really believe they would judge against themselves and make it public?
Of course not, the very idea is ludicrous.

[me_and_ed]

I dont see this as a personal attack, however it does follow the "MO" of this forum, there are certain "pet" casino's, agencies etc that are out of bounds, if these bounds are crossed it is all out warfare. M/G has pretty much had a free pass for a long time. I think the PWC question is valid, a third party entity doing audits, no correlation, no ties, why the change, creedence should be lent to third parties as opposed to "inhouse entities".