eCOGRA MG Audits

[spearmaster]

Yes I see your point but as I say if respectable casinos jump ship for a software provider that is a member of ecogra that would leave only rogue Casinos using the software, thats the start.

On the flipside - these respectable casinos became respectable without eCOGRA. Why would they suddenly need eCOGRA now?

Obviously affiliates would have to choose a side too if ecogra ruled that ecogra Casinos should not have affiliates that promoted any non ecogra Casinos.

Can't/won't happen. Now you're asking for compliance from affiliates - which is 100% impossible...

Education could be pushed vigorously by ecogra affiliates, software providers and Casinos as well as by ecogra themselves so that it is made very clear to anyone that plays at these Casinos they are well protected and if they play at a Casino without the ecogra seal they are not. The cosst would be nominal.
That way it only takes a person to visit 1 ecogra affiliate site, 1 ecogra Casino, 1 ecogra software providers site or just the ecogra site itself to be educated about where it is best to play. Push it!
Lets have a fancy ecogra logo greet us when we load a ecogra Casino
"This Casino is protected by ecogra"
before the Casino welcome kicks in and then push it some more.
Make people see what it is and why it is important.
ecogra just don't seem to understand it should be marketed like a wonder product.
Sell the damn thing, it is good for business.
Every Dollar that doesn't go to a rogue because of it will go to an ecogra casino, it is not rocket science.

Easier said than done. This push has been done before and yet some players continue to feel that eCOGRA is nothing but a rubber-stamp organization.

But I do agree - and I already asked eCOGRA to consider doing another educational campaign earlier this year, and reiterated this again in my latest communication with them.

[GrandMaster]

As I have pointed out before, eCOGRA have in at least one instance imposed sanctions on Jackpot Factory for what can only be construed as extremely poor judgement and misleading marketing. They are certainly not impotent.

Ecogra dithered, and when the manager of JPF announced that all the offensive content had been removed, they took it at face value, without checking themselves.

While I obviously would support such an idea - marketing isn't just about an operator's website. Marketing should also cover all promotional emails, all affiliate marketing, all traditional broadcast, print and display media...

As you can see, this is absolutely impossible no matter how many resources they dedicate to this effort, so I would have to disagree with you.

eCOGRA cannot reasonably be expected to do the policing as well as setting the policy - this would be somewhat similar to a country's lawmakers playing police as well.

TGTR involves analysing millions of transactions daily. Auditing the marketing activities should be easy in comparison. Ecogra sets the policy and performs the TGTR

I think it should be pointed out that eCOGRA's primary role is to set the standards - and it most certainly expects its members to abide by these standards. It is obviously impractical to require eCOGRA to pre-approve any and all emails or marketing projects, and similarly they cannot monitor everything that is put out by all the casinos.

Ecogra does not approve individual random numbers or gambling transactions, just audits them.

The FU clause you are referring to doesn't give them a license to steal from players. It does give them the opportunity to protect themselves from being defrauded. If, however, they use that clause to refuse to pay winnings that were legitimately earned, then it is clear you should complain to eCOGRA.

I didn't say you have to trust the operation. However, this discussion is about eCOGRA - and not something that happened before they became members.

Got anything which happened afterwards? I'm sure eCOGRA will be glad to address the issue - but how in the world do you expect them to take any responsibility for what happened beforehand?

The typical use of the clause is to protect the casino from ill thought-out promotions. I would really like to hear of a case when a promotions manager was dismissed instead of the players being accused of "bonus abuse", "irregular play" and the like.

I think that casinos should be required to deal with all outstanding issues before they are ecogra certified. Would you have been happy if Joyland had been awarded the ecogra seal while owing millions to the jackpot winner?

[lots0]

The way I see this discussion is you have two sides talking at different issues.

Is Ecogra effective as a player advocate?
In my opinion, most of the time, especially when the players problem becomes public... So my answer would be... Yes.

Is Ecogra helpful to affiliates with problems with their member sites or to helping the reputation of the online gambling business in general...
In my Opinion... No way.

So what we have here in this discussion are Player advocates that are staunch supporters and friends of Ecogra.

Then you have the Webmaster Affiliates that are more than fed up with Ecogra and their support of casinos that practice some of the most unethical marketing practices on the web.

I personally don't think the two sides - Player Advocates and Affiliates are ever going to see eye to eye on this issue. Especially when personal friendships are involved with employees and management of Ecogra.

This push has been done before and yet some players continue to feel that eCOGRA is nothing but a rubber-stamp organization.

Of course they feel that way, no matter how many publicity 'pushes' Ecogra make.... and players will continue to feel that way until there is complete transparency within Ecogra, complete Independence from financial 'donations' from the casinos and a Ecogra attitude change that involves players becoming more 'important' than Ecogra's member casinos...

Disclosure: I put Ecogra on my sites blacklist quite some time ago, I listed them as 'Questionable' based on Affiliate issues.

[Rusty]

All that I wrote about promoting ecogra was based on the assumption that they had already implemented a tougher regime and higher standards along with perhaps some independent auditing etc, etc.
Basically an organisation that the players, affiliates and Casinos are happy with too.

On the flipside - these respectable casinos became respectable without eCOGRA. Why would they suddenly need eCOGRA now?

That is indeed the flipside in the sense you have reversed our positions on how effective and respected ecogra currently is.
I can not continually suggest policy or strategy for ecogra on these pages but I have alluded to the ways in which ecogra can gain more gravitas and in turn make itself an organisation that impacts positively on its members both in terms of credibility and profitability.
The basic startegy would be to first ensure their house was built of brick and not straw (again I have touched upon how other organisations work and our respected through their policy/regulation and policing of their members)-
Make a good home to raise a family unless you want disfunctional children.

Once the moral high ground has been taken you can not only promote yourself much more effectively but you can undermine the opposition at the same time, every negative for them is a positive for you.

As I say, it is the gravity of power and if you are the pulling force at the centre (you carry more mass(influence) than the bodies around you, they will naturally be drawn toward you and so your mass grows (influence increases).
You make it so that no respectable Casino can afford to be outside ecogra.
The will or vision to do this though does not appear to be there.

Can't/won't happen. Now you're asking for compliance from affiliates - which is 100% impossible...

This seems to be a similar cant/wont attitude adopted by ecogra which is why no progress is being made.

Casinos pay their affiliates right?
All ecogra Casinos are only promoted by affiliates that do not promote Casinos outside of ecogra.
These affiliates themsleves could be members of an ecogra approved affiliate list. (You could make incentives or benefits but essentially you make being an ecogra approved affiliate more beneficial and some of that would come naturally as ecogra gained in influence and standing)

You can adopt either or both of these approaches.
In the First approach;
If an ecogra casino affiliate is seen to promote a non ecogra casino then have it in your T&C's you need not pay them. That will assure 100% compliance trust me.
In the Second approach;
You could strike them off your list and ensure no ecogra Casinos use them, leave them only the rogues/rebels to promote (who you are already undermining or bringing into your fold)

I am just throwing these out there as I would in a brainstroming session but 100% compliance from affiliates is achievable just as 100% compliance from member Casinos is.
Carrot and stick.
Can/would.

[spearmaster]

Casinos pay their affiliates right?
All ecogra Casinos are only promoted by affiliates that do not promote Casinos outside of ecogra.
These affiliates themsleves could be members of an ecogra approved affiliate list. (You could make incentives or benefits but essentially you make being an ecogra approved affiliate more beneficial and some of that would come naturally as ecogra gained in influence and standing)

You can adopt either or both of these approaches.
In the First approach;
If an ecogra casino affiliate is seen to promote a non ecogra casino then have it in your T&C's you need not pay them. That will assure 100% compliance trust me.
In the Second approach;
You could strike them off your list and ensure no ecogra Casinos use them, leave them only the rogues/rebels to promote (who you are already undermining or bringing into your fold)

I am just throwing these out there as I would in a brainstroming session but 100% compliance from affiliates is achievable just as 100% compliance from member Casinos is.
Carrot and stick.
Can/would.

Bet365. All Wagerworks casinos. Intercasino. Inetbet, Rushmore and CWC.

Just examples, mind you. But I think an affiliate would feel hard done by if not allowed to promote some arguably stellar operations.

[Rusty]

Bet365. All Wagerworks casinos. Intercasino. Inetbet, Rushmore and CWC.

Just examples, mind you. But I think an affiliate would feel hard done by if not allowed to promote some arguably stellar operations.

I think I have already explained in general terms how these specific difficulties can be overcome or avoided completely.

If you are building an Empire you do not just confront every other country as an enemy, you make alliances with those you share common goals.
You expand your sphere of influence.
Does ecogra want to build an Empire or remain an Island concerned only with internal affairs?

If the above Casinos and their software providers were to see ecogra membership as mutually beneficial they would have no reason not to want to join.
There are endless political examples where analogies can be made because that is what it boils down to, politics. (politics/policies/policing)

[spearmaster]

Does ecogra want to build an Empire or remain an Island concerned only with internal affairs?

I'm sure you'll appreciate that building an Empire doesn't happen overnight. I can state with 100% certainty that eCOGRA has been actively talking to many of the different software suppliers over the years with a view to creating a unified community.

For whatever reasons - I'm sure there are many - this hasn't happened - not for lack of trying, mind you.

Anyhow, it's the weekend. I'm more concerned with Ronaldo scoring hat tricks in the next two games to keep my very slim chances of winning my fantasy league alive

[Rusty]

Bryan has done pretty well in creating his accredited list that is comprised of Casinos that use many different software but He wisely avoids recommending a particular software.

Obviously the largest sticking point regarding software suppliers is what constitutes a fair game and what does not, even ecogra in its current format seem bamboozled by that one.
Perhaps the testing of software just like the RNG's should remain outside ecogra and done by a single independent body sanctioned by ecogra and all the software suppliers.
They could all still have representation at ecogra.
Likewise with the auditing.
ecogra could then concentrate on regulation and enforcement, be more transparent and shake off some of the critisisms of conflict of interest.

It is a vast and complex issue but it really is achievable with the will and vision and of course incentive.

PS
I watched the Liverpool match, I think the Ref just got back from a refresher course in Norway.
Anyway no matter, we will crush City tomorrow...I hope.

[spearmaster]

I watched the Liverpool match, I think the Ref just got back from a refresher course in Norway.
Anyway no matter, we will crush City tomorrow...I hope.

LOL. Actually, I dozed off... but as I had Gerrard, things worked out well for me

Tomorrow will be a good game. If City are at their best, it will be a fight, they seem to play so poorly unless they're challenged...

[DiamondGeezer]

Must admit I am getting pretty confused by all this

I would have thought that beefing up the jurisdictions would be more effective than a self regulation (eCOGRA) approach.

I think that what happens in the USA will be highly influential in years to come. If they go for regulation and taxation then that may encourage a more regulatory approach.

What worries me as a player is that if a casino declines to pay you for whatever reason how do you get your money back? I have never found the answer to this simple question. The current setup has not served players like Sylvia well. It is all very well relying on trust, reputation and CM but it would be nice to have something more concrete. Maybe it will be eCOGRA?

I was beginning to be won over by Spearmaster's arguments but then I see he is a Red but has Gerrard as the fulcrum of his FF team? I would love to put you infront of Sir Alex and see what he would say! Hairdryer does not even cover it...