32 Red randomness/shoe games

[Jufo]

Originally Posted by SlotMonster

There is no way to check it, and I more than sure about it.
The only one method to prove, maybe not only randomness, but invariability too, is Randomness Control! And pre-formulated sequence - the best way to prove that your bet size doesn't matter!

Yes, Microgaming should include some kind of Randomness Control into their software. Listen Path, maybe 32Red could be industry leader in this aspect and be the first one to include randomness verification. I am sure you see from the posts here that this is a very big issue with players. Maybe you could ask Microgaming whether such feature would be possible to implement?

[SlotMonster]

Originally Posted by Jufo

Yes, Microgaming should include some kind of Randomness Control into their software. Listen Path, maybe 32Red could be industry leader in this aspect and be the first one to include randomness verification. I am sure you see from the posts here that this is a very big issue with players. Maybe you could ask Microgaming whether such feature would be possible to implement?

It's not only about Microgaming casinos. I truly believe, that Randomness Control should be developed and implemented in every online-casino!
And it's not the case, when Casino Manager come to us say "Our casino is fair because we have great CS, many deposit options, we treat our customers like Kings, and we pay fast". For me good reputation doesn't mean that Casino's RND produce "fair" outcome and Casino cannot change (or doesn't change) game results while play.

[aka23]

If a casino were to cheat, I doubt it would have anything to do with a faulty RNG. It would be unnecessarily awkward to change to the core RNG. Instead it's more an issue of how the RNG is used or not used. For example, a software provider could manipulate a blackjack game by programming the software to draw a random card from the deck (using RNG), then discard that card if it caused a dealer bust and draw a new random card (using RNG). A software could also make the outcome of a BJ game like a weighted slot, instead of a deck of cards. The weighted slot would still use a fair RNG, but it wouldn't play like a deck of cards.

[vinylweatherman]

Originally Posted by aka23

If a casino were to cheat, I doubt it would have anything to do with a faulty RNG. It would be unnecessarily awkward to change to the core RNG. Instead it's more an issue of how the RNG is used or not used. For example, a software provider could manipulate a blackjack game by programming the software to draw a random card from the deck (using RNG), then discard that card if it caused a dealer bust and draw a new random card (using RNG). A software could also make the outcome of a BJ game like a weighted slot, instead of a deck of cards. The weighted slot would still use a fair RNG, but it wouldn't play like a deck of cards.

This had indeed happened.

One casino I joined had top notch service, paid faster than iNetBet, and had a 100% bonus on EVERY DEPOSIT. It worked like EZBonus, and released bonus funds at 2.5% and this INCLUDED BLACKJACK.


After a while, I got just a bit suspicions that I could NEVER seem to make WR, even on Blackjack. Interestingly the dealer played like MGS blackjack, forever getting Ace up, 20s and Blackjacks. Further the game had a SHOE!!!! The rules stipulated that there was NO reshuffle until the shuffle card was reached. I calculated the house edge with their rules to be around 0.0045%, far too low to explain NEVER being able to beat it with a 2.5% bonus redemption.
I bought a blackjack strategy program that worked on a shoe game, and tried it, and it seemed the results went the other way. The application suggested strategy based on remaining shoe composition.

I thought I would then gather data to see if I could "bust" them, but sadly I was beaten to it, they WENT BUST

Later, someone pointed out their Deuces Wild VP paid 111%, (and you could use the 100% bonus on it), so clearly something was up.

I just had my ass bitten, that's what was up

Cheating software, yet they went on about their RNG....etc.......

If I now see patterns that just "beggar belief", I think back to this 2004/5 episode, and it can be hard to convince me there is nothing to find.

Episodes like the MiniVegas "illegitimate play" fiasco come along and reinforce this view. This episode would never have happened if the games were perfectly random.

MY curious BJ experiment, 80,000 hands and 844 units ahead - simply beggars belief, and all this happens to ME, a single player.

Because of the secrecy surrounding how games calculate their outcomes, the impression is given that there is something to hide. The "might help our competitors" doesn't wash, since the method of deriving the outcome should be mathematics, not "commercial secrecy", and the mathematics is available at any good university.

[SlotMonster]

After a while, I got just a bit suspicions that I could NEVER seem to make WR, even on Blackjack. Interestingly the dealer played like MGS blackjack, forever getting Ace up, 20s and Blackjacks. Further the game had a SHOE!!!! The rules stipulated that there was NO reshuffle until the shuffle card was reached. I calculated the house edge with their rules to be around 0.0045%, far too low to explain NEVER being able to beat it with a 2.5% bonus redemption.

vinyl, I think it's too obvious that casino is cheating. And it's obvious, that any casino should have (and even must have) certificated RNG to froduce "fair" outcome and Randomness Control to prove that "fair" outcome wasn't changed while playing. Combination of these two factors (certificated RNG + Randomness Control) will guarantee hundred-per-cent fairness of the Casino. And it's very-very-very BAD, that there is still ONLY ONE casino, which GUARANTEE that its games totally fair and game results could be easily checked!

[Jufo]

Originally Posted by SlotMonster

vinyl, I think it's too obvious that casino is cheating. And it's obvious, that any casino should have (and even must have) certificated RNG to froduce "fair" outcome and Randomness Control to prove that "fair" outcome wasn't changed while playing. Combination of these two factors (certificated RNG + Randomness Control) will guarantee hundred-per-cent fairness of the Casino. And it's very-very-very BAD, that there is still ONLY ONE casino, which GUARANTEE that its games totally fair and game results could be easily checked!

To be fair, the randomness control only verifies that the outcome is not affected by bet size. The randomness control doesn't guarantee for example that dealt cards are randomly picked.

[SlotMonster]

Originally Posted by Jufo

To be fair, the randomness control only verifies that the outcome is not affected by bet size. The randomness control doesn't guarantee for example that dealt cards are randomly picked.

Reread my post again, Jufo. It was clearly said that:

Combination of these two factors (certificated RNG + Randomness Control) will guarantee hundred-per-cent fairness of the Casino.

Not certificated RNG will guarantee this, and not Randonmess Control, but certificated RNG plus Randomness Control.

[Jufo]

Originally Posted by SlotMonster

Reread my post again, Jufo. It was clearly said that:

Hmph, certificated RNG doesn't quarantee fairness like it doesn't at any other casino with certificated RNG. RNG + Randomness control only quarantees that the outcome is independent of what you bet, but the software can still manipulate what the outcome is.

Suppose that the certified RNG in Video Poker gives: Jack (clubs), Queen (clubs), King (clubs), Ace (clubs), Ten (clubs).

How can you be certain that the software doesn't interfere and give you

Jack (clubs), Queen (clubs), King (clubs), Ace (clubs), Ten (spades)

[GrandMaster]

Originally Posted by SlotMonster

vinyl, I think it's too obvious that casino is cheating. And it's obvious, that any casino should have (and even must have) certificated RNG to froduce "fair" outcome and Randomness Control to prove that "fair" outcome wasn't changed while playing. Combination of these two factors (certificated RNG + Randomness Control) will guarantee hundred-per-cent fairness of the Casino. And it's very-very-very BAD, that there is still ONLY ONE casino, which GUARANTEE that its games totally fair and game results could be easily checked!

Do you have some kind of financial interest in that casino or in "Randomness Control"? "Randomness control" only proves that say, in a card game, the order of the cards was not changed from the previously generated shuffle. Even if the RNG is certified fair, it still does not mean that the numbers are converted to cards in a fair way. Furthermore, it is also possible for a casino to select a card at random from the remaining one whenever a new card is needed, without generating the whole shuffle in advance. The only method I l know that guarantees fairness for the player without having to trust external certifying agencies is Fairdice.

[SlotMonster]

RNG + Randomness control only quarantees that the outcome is independent of what you bet

Well, first of all, almost all casinos cannot guarantee even this.
The second thing is, even if what you said was true (about changing cards) - I doubt anyone were still playing at casinos.

Edit: GrandMaster, I don't have any financial interest. I have only personal interest to be able to play at casino and be sure, that this Casino doesn't cheat or change play.

Furthermore, it is also possible for a casino to select a card at random from the remaining one whenever a new card is needed, without generating the whole shuffle in advance.

It's impossible. Changing order of cards appearance will cause changing of checksum given before game.